Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker - II

[Tawnos]

Yeah, it's not a new concept, but it's always been a lame one. SW was always built on stormtroopers having the worst aim in the galaxy. I think this is one of the areas that most can critique about the film without getting into a big argument, it's why I hate discussion TLJ at this point. I just hate how Hux was made into such a joke. I could buy the argument if it was arrogance, but Rian just made the FO look dumb for how Hux could've risen to his rank for being so gullible and a poor strategist.

Off-screen the Empire and FO conquer everything, but on-screen they make every mistake in the book. That's always frustrated me, not just in 8.

The Empire conquered anything and everything due to overwhelming might, not tactics. Hell, their ultimate strategy was to force everyone into submission through the Death Star, the peak of military might. The strategy for using it was never all that good. "We just use it where people will know about it and everyone will fall into line"...

The First Order was built on precisely the same concepts. Hux was pretty dumb in TFA too, so that's not a TLJ invention. It's a central aspect to his character, and pretty much every high-ranking military officer in the Empire-First Order continuum. They make all of those mistakes when faced with actual challenges, because regimented thinking leads to not being able to respond creatively.

And yeah, in the real world, you need both to be as successful as those military organizations were. The Romans didn't conquer everywhere simply because of their military might, but because that might was often directed by brilliant tacticians. The Star Wars universe is painted far more in broad strokes than real life though, as is a lot of speculative fiction as well as nearly every heroic story. Stormtroopers missing everything is another thing that's just a hallmark of pretty much every heroic story going back... to Gilgamesh?

 

[bleedblue1223]

Thinking about the OT, the Rebels won in 4 because of luck and the force, Empire dominated in 5, and Empire lost in 6 because of their arrogance. The Empire was never made to be a joke or led by dumb leaders.

I also liked Rogue One because it came off as 2 sides in a battle that executed well enough. The Empire was actually a threat of shooting and killing the main core of Rebels.

 

[Tawnos]

Thinking about the OT, the Rebels won in 4 because of luck and the force, Empire dominated in 5, and Empire lost in 6 because of their arrogance. The Empire was never made to be a joke or led by dumb leaders.

The Rebels won in 4 because of the Empire's arrogance too. They specifically allowed the plans to get into Rebel hands assuming they'd be able to mop up. They didn't send out small fighters immediately and then, even when they did, they assumed they could take care of it with just a few TIEs. A mistake they tried to rectify by the time we get to 6.

 

[bleedblue1223]

The Rebels won in 4 because of the Empire's arrogance too. They specifically allowed the plans to get into Rebel hands assuming they'd be able to mop up. They didn't send out small fighters immediately and then, even when they did, they assumed they could take care of it with just a few TIEs. A mistake they tried to rectify by the time we get to 6.

Yeah, they definitely had arrogance, but if it wasn't for Luke, they would've destroyed the Rebels. Hell if it wasn't for Han, Vader would've taken down Luke.

 

[Tawnos]

Yeah, they definitely had arrogance, but if it wasn't for Luke, they would've destroyed the Rebels. Hell if it wasn't for Han, Vader would've taken down Luke.

You just described something called "plot"

 

[bleedblue1223]

You just described something called "plot"

My point is, the Empire in the OT weren't made to be overly dumb or gullible like Hux was at times.

 

[Tawnos]

My point is, the Empire in the OT weren't made to be overly dumb or gullible like Hux was at times.

I understand your point. *My* point is that they were just as dumb as Hux. Really the ONLY one that wasn't was Vader, which is what made him so dangerous. Even Palpatine is kinda dumb.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I understand your point. *My* point is that they were just as dumb as Hux. Really the ONLY one that wasn't was Vader, which is what made him so dangerous. Even Palpatine is kinda dumb.

Disagree. Tarkin or Vader or any other Empire leader wouldn't have been gullible to Poe like Hux was on that stupid transmission call. Compare 4 to 7. Vader was probably the best pilot in the sky, Han surprised him, otherwise Vader takes out Luke. Poe took out all the cannons on his run, but Kylo to me showed that he was just as good of a pilot. He took out all the Resistance fighters in the hangers, so what was the threat preventing the FO from sending Kyle and the Ties from destroying the fleet?

At least the Palps had reason to be arrogant, he was Palps after all. He was trying to break Luke down to fall to the darkside, he had to crush his spirit instead of just winning.

 

[Tawnos]

Disagree. Tarkin or Vader or any other Empire leader wouldn't have been gullible to Poe like Hux was on that stupid transmission call. Compare 4 to 7. Vader was probably the best pilot in the sky, Han surprised him, otherwise Vader takes out Luke. Poe took out all the cannons on his run, but Kylo to me showed that he was just as good of a pilot. He took out all the Resistance fighters in the hangers, so what was the threat preventing the FO from sending Kyle and the Ties from destroying the fleet?

Vader is different. Like I said, this is what makes him dangerous. But Tarkin was stupid too. "Evacuate? In our moment of triumph?" C'mon.

With the exception of Vader, every single person in the Empire dumbly assumes that the Rebels will not be able to fight back against whatever might they're bringing to bear. In ANH, it's the assumption that all they need to do to destroy the Rebels is show up with the Death Star. In ESB, it's the assumption that the Rebels wouldn't have any way to get past their Star Destroyer brigade, which they did with the ion cannon. In RotJ, it's the assumption that they'd never figure out how to get the shield down.

Yes... yes, if the Rebels hadn't had that ion cannon, or been able to ally with the Ewoks, those things in 5 and 6 wouldn't have happened. But they did and the Empire was consistently unprepared for what the Rebels did... because they were dumb.

It's the Empire being dumb from beginning to end.

And I say this only from the point-of-view you're taking on Hux. I personally don't think he's "dumb"... just a product of his training.

 

[bleedblue1223]

And I say this only from the point-of-view you're taking on Hux. I personally don't think he's "dumb"... just a product of his training.

Come on, even his subordinates had to tell him that Poe was punking him. In 7, Hux was the typical SW villain. In 8, he was comical. That's the problem.

Being arrogant as a military force is common in real-life too. Look at Vietnam. Look at the American Revolution. It's not like the more powerful or well-equipped military won those wars.

 

[Tawnos]

Come on, even his subordinates had to tell him that Poe was punking him. In 7, Hux was the typical SW villain. In 8, he was comical. That's the problem.

Being arrogant as a military force is common in real-life too. Look at Vietnam. Look at the American Revolution.

That was one moment in 8, but I definitely got the feeling in 7 that he wasn't particularly good at interacting with people so I didn't really find it out of place. The style of comedy there was definitely a little strange coming from anyone but droids, but I was more referring the rest of the movie and the moves he made that more or less allowed the situation to resolve the way it did.

 

[bleedblue1223]

That was one moment in 8, but I definitely got the feeling in 7 that he wasn't particularly good at interacting with people so I didn't really find it out of place. The style of comedy there was definitely a little strange coming from anyone but droids, but I was more referring the rest of the movie and the moves he made that more or less allowed the situation to resolve the way it did.

The only real part that Hux had in 8 were those scenes though, that's where I'm calling him dumb. His interation with Poe and pulling Kylo back when Kylo and the ties were about to destroy the Resistance. The next we saw of Hux was when he was annoyed that Kylo became Supreme Leader and was back to just being annoyed with the decision that Kylo made.

I'm really not trying to get into another TLJ argument, I though most agreed that decisions with Hux weren't the best, and I think we do agree on that, at least part of it.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

My point is, the Empire in the OT weren't made to be overly dumb or gullible like Hux was at times.

What are you talking about?

They spent an entire movie getting beat by teddy bears throwing rocks and sticks

 

[bleedblue1223]

Anyone see the leaks on r/starwarsleaks? I won't bring up anything specific hear, just curious if anyone saw them and if they liked it or not.

 

[bleedblue1223]

What are you talking about?

They spent an entire movie getting beat by teddy bears throwing rocks and sticks

In that same battle, they had Han's group captured and almost won. No one in the Empire fell for a dumb joke like Hux with Poe.

Clearly the ewoks are mini jedi for setting up that log crusher lol.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

What are you talking about?

They spent an entire movie getting beat by teddy bears throwing rocks and sticks

Ewoks sucked but they didnt make the Empire dumb, unless you mean they are dumb for being hit by a rock, as in those Stormtroopers have brain damage from blunt force trauma

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Thinking about the OT, the Rebels won in 4 because of luck and the force, Empire dominated in 5, and Empire lost in 6 because of their arrogance. The Empire was never made to be a joke or led by dumb leaders..

Sorry but the ewoks kicking Empire troops ass with sticks and rocks and the fact empire troops walked right into comical capture is more then being made to look like a joke

Return of the Jedi was every bit as bad as the prequels and should forever receive flak for Ewok storyline among other things

 

[bleedblue1223]

Sorry but the ewoks kicking Empire troops ass with sticks and rocks and the fact empire troops walked right into comical capture is more then being made to look like a joke

Return of the Jedi was every bit as bad as the prequels and should forever receive flak for Ewok storyline among other things

The ewok stuff is all fair, I still want to know how they got the logs tied up in the trees to crush the AT-ST. I mean, they have to be mini jedi, right?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Return of the Jedi is the most underrated Star Wars movie in the franchise.

The Ewok plot absolutely does not hold up as well as it did the first time I watched it, but as soon as they gear up for the final battle it more than makes up for it.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Return of the Jedi is the most underrated Star Wars movie in the franchise.

The Ewok plot absolutely does not hold up as well as it did the first time I watched it, but as soon as they gear up for the final battle it more than makes up for it.

Yeah, I always liked it more than others did. Introduction of Nien Nunb and Ackbar were very underrated IMO. Still think it would be epic if we had an alien lead.

The only real major critique is the ewoks.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Can someone explain to me why so many want a Kenobi movie/series for his time on Tatooine? I'm afraid some are just too nostalgic about having the same actor in McGregor play a character that most love, but the story is inevitably going to let a lot of people down. He's either going to be a boring hermit, which is what it should be IMO, or he's going to use the force is someway against gangsters, but then, that sort of ruins his whole purpose for why he's on Tatooine. To me it feels like the Solo movie, a story being told to us that we just don't need to know.

If anything, the Solo movie could've led to a trilogy that involved gangs and heists with Boba, Bossk, and Maul being included in bigger roles. A final scene could've been a live-action version of the Kenobi/Maul final duel that was in Rebels.

 

[GabeTravels]

Can someone explain to me why so many want a Kenobi movie/series for his time on Tatooine? I'm afraid some are just too nostalgic about having the same actor in McGregor play a character that most love, but the story is inevitably going to let a lot of people down. He's either going to be a boring hermit, which is what it should be IMO, or he's going to use the force is someway against gangsters, but then, that sort of ruins his whole purpose for why he's on Tatooine. To me it feels like the Solo movie, a story being told to us that we just don't need to know.

If anything, the Solo movie could've led to a trilogy that involved gangs and heists with Boba, Bossk, and Maul being included in bigger roles. A final scene could've been a live-action version of the Kenobi/Maul final duel that was in Rebels.

What about Kenobi trying to track down Jedi in hiding? I admit I'm not up on expanded universe stuff, but did he spend the entire time on Tatooine?

 

[bleedblue1223]

What about Kenobi trying to track down Jedi in hiding? I admit I'm not up on expanded universe stuff, but did he spend the entire time on Tatooine?

I admittedly didn't read up on what Kenobi did or what is still canon, but he had to of stayed under the radar from the Empire.

 

[MadDevil]

A limited series showing Obi-Wan's struggle to not be an active Jedi could be interesting. Similar to the Kenobi novel that came out a few years ago (I can't remember if it's canon or not). Tatooine is a backwater, so it wouldn't be too hard for him to stay under the radar as long as he's not whipping out his lightsaber or obviously using the Force. They could go into his learning how to commune with Qui-Gonn through the Force. Maybe young Luke gets himself in trouble and "old Ben Kenobi" has to help him out. We know Uncle Owen isn't exactly the biggest Obi-Wan fan either, so maybe they have a run in at some point.

And yes, a pretty large reason why fans want this is to see Ewan McGregor play Obi-Wan again. Not all "fan service" is bad.

 

[Jussi]

In that same battle, they had Han's group captured and almost won. No one in the Empire fell for a dumb joke like Hux with Poe.

Clearly the ewoks are mini jedi for setting up that log crusher lol.

There's like a lot them and most likely used rocks to counterbalance and other physics. I mean how the f*** do you think the Goa'uld humans built the pyramids?