SSM Greyhounds 2018-19 Season Thread

[Radar9]

I strongly disagree with this. We're one of the younger teams in the league and if we have the picks to supplement the roster then there won't be any down years in the near future. Selling some vets allows us the ability to get quality talent in the draft, add veterans in a future deadline, and to give our young players a chance to shine this season.

If we don't sell then your scenario will come to fruition. Relying on late picks to build a contending team is a recipe for disaster. Guelph tried that and they were horrific for several years.

I agree with you hundred percent You sell you get a first round player and some second round picks we don’t have any second round picks for the next 3 to 4 years you got to be nuts if you don’t do it

 

[HockeyPops]

11 of 12 possible points this homestand. If this keeps up it makes me wonder: have we ever seen a team sell that was in first place at the deadline?

 

[soo hound girl]

I agree with you hundred percent You sell you get a first round player and some second round picks we don’t have any second round picks for the next 3 to 4 years you got to be nuts if you don’t do it

Who cares if we don’t have any 2nd round picks we have a pretty good team so far let’s just keep on winning and let the chips fall where they may

 

[Radar9]

Who cares if we don’t have any 2nd round picks we have a pretty good team so far let’s just keep on winning and let the chips fall where they may

LOL i am not even going to reply on that because its ridiculous what you said

 

[soo hound girl]

LOL i am not even going to reply on that because its ridiculous what you said

So are you saying if Sandin comes back we still sell off to get our 2nd round picks back? I know it went legal on Wednesday but come on are you guys still high?

 

[saska sault]

Exactly. If you are in first place... or even a top 4 spot you dont sell. Fans get so worked up with the draft picks... if we dont sell Hayton and Frost and Villata and Sandin if he returns it means we are a good team. A contender. That also means alot of our support players have performed above expectations and have increased value. They can be sold at later dates if needed.. bottom line is we have won a memorial cup or league championship in over 25 years. Anytime you have a chance, you take it because you never know when you will get another shot. We have had super teams.. all star line ups.. they coasted through the season racking up records just to fall short... I think Raftis Is wise enough to know if we sold off all our valuable assets while sitting in 1st or 2nd place. It's only in the hope those players help you get back to the spot you are already in... a spot to contend.


Now... if we fail and the team slips down to 5th or 6th... or even lower. Then sell.. stock the draft picks and let the young kids take over and develop. That should not be option A or B tho.. I remember Dave Torrie, Denny Lambert.. Mike Stapleton and all the years of those promises.

 

[OHLFan90]

Who cares if we don’t have any 2nd round picks we have a pretty good team so far let’s just keep on winning and let the chips fall where they may

This really isn't a game of chance. It's a business at the end of the day unfortunately. I get what you're saying, ride the wave. At the same time you need to think about the long term of this club. This is a crucial season for Soo. Your window ended last year. That was the best chance to win and unfortunately it just didn't happen.Do you still have a competitive team? Yes but you won't when teams like Guelph, London, and Saginaw all add and probably pass the Soo in the standings in Feb. Are you okay with letting one of your best players in Franchise history (Morgan Frost) walk for nothing? That's a hard sell.

Not having 2nd round picks is massive. Ask Windsor fans what its like to not have premium picks (I'd say 1st and 2nd round picks are considered premium picks) for multiple years. 5 years of not winning a single round , missing the playoffs twice.

Soo has nothing to offer to get a stud that will separate themselves from the pack. You don't want to make a run and be like Kingston who has no 2nd round picks for 9 seasons I believe. Best option is to rebuild on the fly.

Get player and picks for Morgan Frost.

Get a great return on the 2 stud O/A Dmen.

Sell Matty V at the deadline when his value is super sky high ( Likely gets 4 2nds or some 2nds and a player)

 

[soo hound girl]

This really isn't a game of chance. It's a business at the end of the day unfortunately. I get what you're saying, ride the wave. At the same time you need to think about the long term of this club. This is a crucial season for Soo. Your window ended last year. That was the best chance to win and unfortunately it just didn't happen.Do you still have a competitive team? Yes but you won't when teams like Guelph, London, and Saginaw all add and probably pass the Soo in the standings in Feb. Are you okay with letting one of your best players in Franchise history (Morgan Frost) walk for nothing? That's a hard sell.

Not having 2nd round picks is massive. Ask Windsor fans what its like to not have premium picks (I'd say 1st and 2nd round picks are considered premium picks) for multiple years. 5 years of not winning a single round , missing the playoffs twice.

Soo has nothing to offer to get a stud that will separate themselves from the pack. You don't want to make a run and be like Kingston who has no 2nd round picks for 9 seasons I believe. Best option is to rebuild on the fly.

Get player and picks for Morgan Frost.

Get a great return on the 2 stud O/A Dmen.

Sell Matty V at the deadline when his value is super sky high ( Likely gets 4 2nds or some 2nds and a player)

You don’t think Sandin is a game changer? It would cost us nothing if we get him back . Right now we have probably the best defence in the league, one of the best goalies, top two center men in league and some young guys really developing fast. 2014/15 and 2017/18 we went all in and where did that get us?
That is why I am saying if we are in first or 2nd at the deadline let’s go for it without trying to add pieces and change the dressing room.
If Sandin comes back that would be the best add of anybody out there just my opinion I guess

 

[HockeyPops]

If Sandin comes back that would be the best add of anybody out there just my opinion I guess

Agree. Sandin could step onto any NHL team and not look out of place. Is there anyone else you could add that you could say the same thing about?

 

[OHLFan90]

You don’t think Sandin is a game changer? It would cost us nothing if we get him back . Right now we have probably the best defence in the league, one of the best goalies, top two center men in league and some young guys really developing fast. 2014/15 and 2017/18 we went all in and where did that get us?
That is why I am saying if we are in first or 2nd at the deadline let’s go for it without trying to add pieces and change the dressing room.
If Sandin comes back that would be the best add of anybody out there just my opinion I guess

Of Course he is a game changer but right now he is not on the Soo and their is a chance that he doesn't return.

Are you suggesting on making a run with him and with out him or maybe doing it if he returns?

He will add to a defence that is already decent. Will put up points. I just don't think he puts you over the top.

I just think you have more to lose then gain. The Soo have been a powerhouse for a long time. Reset a little Come do it again in 2 years for another 5 years lol. I just know Guelph did well in 14-15 after winning the league. Kept Bertuzi, Suter, Dickenson, Leslie, Fabbri, finished that season near the top of the conference, got eliminated in the 2nd round and basically had the worst 3 years in franchise history. Now other things factored into that but not having assets def killed them.

As mentioned I think last year was the end of the window. That was a super team and one of the best teams the league has seen in modern history. If you couldn't win with that one regardless of circumstance, then winning with this one with or with out Sandin isn't likely.


Again I get what you're saying. Believe me I want my team to ride the wave too. As a fan it just sucks that we (OSA) are about to witness 2 of our best players in franchise history walk because we failed to get a goalie and another top flight player.

Thanks for the late Saturday chats though. Going to be interesting to see how the soo does from now on. If they decide to buy they will have to get creative. If they sell, you could be looking at a team that has potentially 5 1st round picks from this past draft on your roster next season. (prices pending of course)

 

[soo hound girl]

Of Course he is a game changer but right now he is not on the Soo and their is a chance that he doesn't return.

Are you suggesting on making a run with him and with out him or maybe doing it if he returns?

He will add to a defence that is already decent. Will put up points. I just don't think he puts you over the top.

I just think you have more to lose then gain. The Soo have been a powerhouse for a long time. Reset a little Come do it again in 2 years for another 5 years lol. I just know Guelph did well in 14-15 after winning the league. Kept Bertuzi, Suter, Dickenson, Leslie, Fabbri, finished that season near the top of the conference, got eliminated in the 2nd round and basically had the worst 3 years in franchise history. Now other things factored into that but not having assets def killed them.

As mentioned I think last year was the end of the window. That was a super team and one of the best teams the league has seen in modern history. If you couldn't win with that one regardless of circumstance, then winning with this one with or with out Sandin isn't likely.


Again I get what you're saying. Believe me I want my team to ride the wave too. As a fan it just sucks that we (OSA) are about to witness 2 of our best players in franchise history walk because we failed to get a goalie and another top flight player.

Thanks for the late Saturday chats though. Going to be interesting to see how the soo does from now on. If they decide to buy they will have to get creative. If they sell, you could be looking at a team that has potentially 5 1st round picks from this past draft on your roster next season. (prices pending of course)

Yes you make some really good points I as a fan just want to see them keep winning maybe I am being greedy I don’t know but I love being on top year after year thanks for visiting our board you always have good reads

 

[Marj44]

Again, according to the OHL draft pick database being run by some fine people; we are missing;
2019- 2nd
2020- 2nd
2022- 2nd
2021- 6th
**While also having an extra 2020- 4th and 2021- 10th.

How many 2nd round picks do we have on a talented Greyhound team this year? (0)
We all agree last year was a stacked team and guess what, how many 2nd round picks? 1 (Katchouk 2nd)

Here’s a recap of our recent 2nd round picks;
No One- 2011, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018
Spinozzi- 2012
White- 2013
Katchouk, Raaymakers- 2014

I wouldn’t consider Spinozzi or Raaymakers Elite status (Colton White barely), so that’s 2 premium talents from the 2nd round in the past 8 drafts. Yet the Greyhounds still had a championship contending team in 2014-15 and 2017-18.

I’m not saying we don’t sell. If Sandin did not return, I believe it would cost too much to keep up with other top teams, making it not worth it. But if Sandin returns (as I believe he will) i don’t know how you could sell.

There’s really only 2 questions here;
1) Is Sandin returning (we’ll find out for certain shortly)
2) Would you personally as a fan like the team to finish near the top of the conference every year and not be favoured to win it all in any season. Or would you personally as a fan be okay with 1-2 “down” years and no shot in order to get a record breaking season and be favoured win it all.

Personally, I’ll go with #2.

Ps. That extra 4th round pick we had, here’s that same group from 2011-2018;
Matt Buckles, Trent Malette, Kyle Jenkins, Cody Milan, Hayden Verbeek, Conor Timmins, Morgan Frost, Holden Wale, Peter Muzyka, Joe Carroll & Rory Kerins....

 

[HockeyPops]

Thanks for a great post marj, it's interesting to see the picks grouped by round drafted. Let's flush out the missing 3rd round for fun:
Robert Calisti (2017)
Alex Gritz (2016)
Anthony DeMeo (2015)
Tim Gettinger (2014)
Zach Senyshyn (2013)
Nicholas Pastorious (2012)
Nick Halagian (2011)
Justin Nichols (2011)

It's certainly useful to see who went in each round in the past when talking about the value of a future pick to a team. It gives us a sense of the kind of player we might be trading away.

 

[soo hound girl]

Again, according to the OHL draft pick database being run by some fine people; we are missing;
2019- 2nd
2020- 2nd
2022- 2nd
2021- 6th
**While also having an extra 2020- 4th and 2021- 10th.

How many 2nd round picks do we have on a talented Greyhound team this year? (0)
We all agree last year was a stacked team and guess what, how many 2nd round picks? 1 (Katchouk 2nd)

Here’s a recap of our recent 2nd round picks;
No One- 2011, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018
Spinozzi- 2012
White- 2013
Katchouk, Raaymakers- 2014

I wouldn’t consider Spinozzi or Raaymakers Elite status (Colton White barely), so that’s 2 premium talents from the 2nd round in the past 8 drafts. Yet the Greyhounds still had a championship contending team in 2014-15 and 2017-18.

I’m not saying we don’t sell. If Sandin did not return, I believe it would cost too much to keep up with other top teams, making it not worth it. But if Sandin returns (as I believe he will) i don’t know how you could sell.

There’s really only 2 questions here;
1) Is Sandin returning (we’ll find out for certain shortly)
2) Would you personally as a fan like the team to finish near the top of the conference every year and not be favoured to win it all in any season. Or would you personally as a fan be okay with 1-2 “down” years and no shot in order to get a record breaking season and be favoured win it all.

Personally, I’ll go with #2.

Ps. That extra 4th round pick we had, here’s that same group from 2011-2018;
Matt Buckles, Trent Malette, Kyle Jenkins, Cody Milan, Hayden Verbeek, Conor Timmins, Morgan Frost, Holden Wale, Peter Muzyka, Joe Carroll & Rory Kerins....

Bingo

 

[OHLFan90]

To the point of the 2nds.

Yes you may be able to build a club that can compete with out having a number of them on the roster but and correct me if I am wrong with out 2nd round picks in your vault you wouldn't have been able to trade for

Justin Bailey
Anthony DeAngelo
Taylor Raddysh
Jordan Sambrook
Can't remember if it was brett or nick ritchie


With out 2nd round picks (Drafted and Undrafted) You wouldn't have had the 5-6 year success you just came off of.

Would have still been a good team yes but not a contender.


I am more suggesting that right now because the window is essentially closed ( I think even with Sandin you peak in round 2) The lack of 2nd's in this upcoming draft and the one after might hurt. Yes it's just one pick but you hit on those 2nds and the retool becomes a lot easier. You don't have to rely on hoping to hit on a later round pick. Just my opinion.

Again, I get wanting to ride the wave.

But I also see players on the roster who are walking after this season that get you parts in trades that speed things up. I think with the pieces you have, you could easily acquire 10 2nd and 3rd round picks and multiple top prospects.

Things get tougher if you don't capitalize on assets. Would Hounds STH support a full rebuild? Or are they are team that needs to build on the fly?

 

[Marj44]

I’ll go down this hypothetical road;

Let’s say we get Sandin back (since I stated that’s when we would be buyers);
You trade for a player like Jason Robertson from Kingston

You use SOMETHING like;
Holden Wale, Tye Kartye, three 2nds, a 3rd

You’d have something like;
Robertson-Frost-McKay
Howdeshell-Hayton-Carroll
Trott-McLean-Pucek
Roth-Kerins-Jacklin

Sandin-Hollowell
LeGuerrier-Sambrook
O’Rourke-Calisti/DeMeo

Villalta

You’d be down a total of 6 seconds, a 3rd and a 6th while having an extra 4th and 10th.

Next year you sell any of Jacklin, Trott, Hayton (he isn’t coming back), LeGuerrier, Caron and an overage DeMeo.

If you think that lineup ^ wouldn’t be one of the teams favoured to win it all, idk what you’re watching.
If you think those players deemed able to be sold wouldn’t recoup some (NOT ALL) picks, wow.

All comes back to the question I posed in the last post;
Do you want to sell now, recoup and be contending for best in the conference
Or
Do you buy now, contend for the cup and recoup (or in our case, reload) for the next 2-3 years.

If they went the option of buying and contending the fan base knows we will have a couple seasons of rough times, maybe even miss the playoffs a season
Is that worth it for the cup?
A team and fans that haven’t got it since ‘93 and got heart wrenched twice recently...
Is it worth rebuilding for 2-3 years to have a cup back in SSM?

That’s a personal decision each person makes, can’t blame someone for thinking yes or no...
Personally, I think it’s worth it. IF you bring back the cup...

 

[HockeyPops]

Again, I find it interesting to view past performance in the context of this discussion. Here is the Regular season position the greyhounds finished in each of the last 8 years:
9th 2011-2012 * Dubas first season
6th 2012-2013
2nd 2013-2014
1st 2014-2015 * Raftis first season
7th 2015-2016
2nd 2016-2017
1st 2017-2018.
??? 2018-2019

Kyle Dubas's first season is the last time we missed the playoffs. We appear to be on a 3 year cycle. 1) Down year with away ice in playoffs; 2) Win division; 3) Win Conference.

I am 100% ok with this pattern continuing.

 

[Fischhaber]

Again, according to the OHL draft pick database being run by some fine people; we are missing;
2019- 2nd
2020- 2nd
2022- 2nd
2021- 6th
**While also having an extra 2020- 4th and 2021- 10th.

How many 2nd round picks do we have on a talented Greyhound team this year? (0)
We all agree last year was a stacked team and guess what, how many 2nd round picks? 1 (Katchouk 2nd)

Here’s a recap of our recent 2nd round picks;
No One- 2011, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018
Spinozzi- 2012
White- 2013
Katchouk, Raaymakers- 2014

I wouldn’t consider Spinozzi or Raaymakers Elite status (Colton White barely), so that’s 2 premium talents from the 2nd round in the past 8 drafts. Yet the Greyhounds still had a championship contending team in 2014-15 and 2017-18.

I’m not saying we don’t sell. If Sandin did not return, I believe it would cost too much to keep up with other top teams, making it not worth it. But if Sandin returns (as I believe he will) i don’t know how you could sell.

There’s really only 2 questions here;
1) Is Sandin returning (we’ll find out for certain shortly)
2) Would you personally as a fan like the team to finish near the top of the conference every year and not be favoured to win it all in any season. Or would you personally as a fan be okay with 1-2 “down” years and no shot in order to get a record breaking season and be favoured win it all.

Personally, I’ll go with #2.

Ps. That extra 4th round pick we had, here’s that same group from 2011-2018;
Matt Buckles, Trent Malette, Kyle Jenkins, Cody Milan, Hayden Verbeek, Conor Timmins, Morgan Frost, Holden Wale, Peter Muzyka, Joe Carroll & Rory Kerins....

This whole argument seems a little foolish to me. Of course the fourth round picks are going to look better. We had twice as many picks!

Consider some of the players that went in the range of our 2015 and 2016 picks, had we kept them. Joseph Gareffa, Cole Coskey, Kevin Bahl, Bode Wilde. There was a lot of talent to choose from in those spots.

Leaving that aside for the moment, what point are you trying to make? The fact that we got a couple of studs in the fourth round doesn't mean that those picks are somehow better.

 

[Radar9]

This whole argument seems a little foolish to me. Of course the fourth round picks are going to look better. We had twice as many picks!

Consider some of the players that went in the range of our 2015 and 2016 picks, had we kept them. Joseph Gareffa, Cole Coskey, Kevin Bahl, Bode Wilde. There was a lot of talent to choose from in those spots.

Leaving that aside for the moment, what point are you trying to make? The fact that we got a couple of studs in the fourth round doesn't mean that those picks are somehow better.

Very good point and i know exactly what your talking about Fischhaber i am with you on this

 

[Marj44]

This whole argument seems a little foolish to me. Of course the fourth round picks are going to look better. We had twice as many picks!

Consider some of the players that went in the range of our 2015 and 2016 picks, had we kept them. Joseph Gareffa, Cole Coskey, Kevin Bahl, Bode Wilde. There was a lot of talent to choose from in those spots.

Leaving that aside for the moment, what point are you trying to make? The fact that we got a couple of studs in the fourth round doesn't mean that those picks are somehow better.

Of course there’s more 4th round picks and every year you could hit or miss in any round (other than the first normally).

I included 2nd round picks because I wanted to illustrate that we have done fine without them and that while they are fantastic, if we have to give some away for the moment for a reward it’s not the end of the world.
I included the 4th round picks to show what the extra 4th round pick we have could yield us, since many seemed worried we’ve somehow messed up the future draft picks.

The point is to show that since 2011 the Greyhounds have done so well at scouting and finding guys later (in context to the picks we are missing and the extra one we got). Judging by recent history, as of right now, we have lost a player in the 2nd round next draft that could be of the potential of those second round guys ^ and gained an extra player of the potential of the 4th round guys.

I elaborate on why it’s okay to give up some picks on my last post to show that we could recoup some of what we would lose in acquiring a player like Robertson this year.


This is to show my point that saying we are for sure selling or that we cannot compete this year is kind of laughable right now. I’m confident in our current team vs any team in a 7 game series right now, you add Sandin and we get a free boost. Other teams will have to make a move to keep up with Sandin returning (unless a team like London gets a Bouchard or Formenton back). Add Robertson and you’ve now forced a lot of teams to make 2 moves to compete with us.

Once we figure out what’s going on with Sandin things will be much more clear...

 

[OHLFan90]

Of course there’s more 4th round picks and every year you could hit or miss in any round (other than the first normally).

I included 2nd round picks because I wanted to illustrate that we have done fine without them and that while they are fantastic, if we have to give some away for the moment for a reward it’s not the end of the world.
I included the 4th round picks to show what the extra 4th round pick we have could yield us, since many seemed worried we’ve somehow messed up the future draft picks.

The point is to show that since 2011 the Greyhounds have done so well at scouting and finding guys later (in context to the picks we are missing and the extra one we got). Judging by recent history, as of right now, we have lost a player in the 2nd round next draft that could be of the potential of those second round guys ^ and gained an extra player of the potential of the 4th round guys.

I elaborate on why it’s okay to give up some picks on my last post to show that we could recoup some of what we would lose in acquiring a player like Robertson this year.


This is to show my point that saying we are for sure selling or that we cannot compete this year is kind of laughable right now. I’m confident in our current team vs any team in a 7 game series right now, you add Sandin and we get a free boost. Other teams will have to make a move to keep up with Sandin returning (unless a team like London gets a Bouchard or Formenton back). Add Robertson and you’ve now forced a lot of teams to make 2 moves to compete with us.

Once we figure out what’s going on with Sandin things will be much more clear...

He was added to the Marlies roster today. Not sure what that means but to me that signals he will be playing games for them.

 

[HockeyPops]

He was added to the Marlies roster today. Not sure what that means but to me that signals he will be playing games for them.

Is there a link for this? Can't find this anywhere.

 

[OHLFan90]

 

[OHLFan90]

Is there a link for this? Can't find this anywhere.

Tweet above^

Could mean something. Could mean nothing.

I imagine he plays in Toronto for the Marlies at least for 5-10 games before a decision is made.

 

[Fischhaber]

Of course there’s more 4th round picks and every year you could hit or miss in any round (other than the first normally).

I included 2nd round picks because I wanted to illustrate that we have done fine without them and that while they are fantastic, if we have to give some away for the moment for a reward it’s not the end of the world.
I included the 4th round picks to show what the extra 4th round pick we have could yield us, since many seemed worried we’ve somehow messed up the future draft picks.

The point is to show that since 2011 the Greyhounds have done so well at scouting and finding guys later (in context to the picks we are missing and the extra one we got). Judging by recent history, as of right now, we have lost a player in the 2nd round next draft that could be of the potential of those second round guys ^ and gained an extra player of the potential of the 4th round guys.

I elaborate on why it’s okay to give up some picks on my last post to show that we could recoup some of what we would lose in acquiring a player like Robertson this year.


This is to show my point that saying we are for sure selling or that we cannot compete this year is kind of laughable right now. I’m confident in our current team vs any team in a 7 game series right now, you add Sandin and we get a free boost. Other teams will have to make a move to keep up with Sandin returning (unless a team like London gets a Bouchard or Formenton back). Add Robertson and you’ve now forced a lot of teams to make 2 moves to compete with us.

Once we figure out what’s going on with Sandin things will be much more clear...

To make things clear, I never said or implied that we can't compete this season. It's just that competing this year and entering a long and painful rebuild is not a logical approach. We've seen other teams make that mistake and we have to be smarter. A couple of strategic moves will allow us to be in the same position in 2019/20, only with a bunch of elite young players and extra picks.

I'm just throwing ideas out there, but I imagine that you could get a guy like Graeme Clarke and picks for Villalta. He's someone who could help this season and in the future. For a big time piece like Frost, you may even get a prime talent like Nick Porco or Daniil Chayka on the table. Then you've got a star to build around going forward.

Maybe with some of the extra picks, they could snag a goalie to pair with Taylor next year. It doesn't have to be so black and white.