Speculation: Speculation, Rumours, and all ArmChair-GM-ing Needs v.12

[Wayne Primeau]

Ortio can't be both easily replaceable but also a key piece in a trade for someone like Van Riemsdyk. The reality is, the Leafs would want names like Poirier, Klimchuk and maybe Andersson. The prospects that coincidentally, just happen to be the ones that some aren't that high on isn't going to get it done. If Dubas is intrigued by Jankowski, then maybe there's something that could be done. With Monahan, Bennett and Backlund on the team and Arnold looking promising, Jankowski's actually expendable.

Can't really see the Flames giving up two firsts in a row.

Give ‘em Janko, a 1st, Ortio, and one of those three. They’ll give you JVR.

 

[InfinityIggy]

I suggested Jankowski not because I think he is expendable, but because I don't believe that current management is actually that high on him. so if we are speculating on what a potential deal might involve, Jankowski comes to mind for me.

 

[Wayne Primeau]

I suggested Jankowski not because I think he is expendable, but because I don't believe that current management is actually that high on him. so if we are speculating on what a potential deal might involve, Jankowski comes to mind for me.

He’s the Salo to their Milbury.

I neither dislike nor like Janko, but I think he’s been given a rough deal here. Might be nice for a change of scenery.

That’d be five straight first rounds that would harbour a), busts, b), no picks, or c), trades. Yeesh.

2008 - Nemisz (a, c). 2009 - Erixon (a, c). 2010 - No pick (b). 2011 - Baertschi (a, c). 2012 - Jankowski (c).

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Not interested in giving what it would likely take to get Van Riemsdyk. Giving up a first plus other stuff for a winger at this stage of the rebuild would be a mistake; it's the least important position and should be addressed last. Nor can I see management putting all their eggs in the Gillies basket; goaltending can be unpredictable and closing windows, again at this stage, would be shortsighted.

So unless Treliving can put his wizard hat on again and get the Leafs to take a package involving chiefly Granlund/Shore/2nd/Agostino as the main pieces, I'm entirely content to wait for Poirier/Klimchuk/Smith/Ferland/Carroll/Shore/Agostino, etc., to develop.

I just don't understand this attitude at all... At what stage in the rebuild are we at? It's not like we're 5 years away from competing or even three years if you ask me. If we get JVR I strongly believe that within the next two years we will be highly competitive, I mean just look at how complete our roster would be even this upcoming season. The chance that our 1st next year becomes as good a player is slim to start with, then add the fact that with JVR it would likely be in the 20-30 range I don't understand the hesitation. I guess we can wait for Poirier and Klimchuk and everyone else to develop and hope they become near JVR level (16th in league scoring the past 3 years btw), but I'd rather be aggressive and get this quality young winger with a great contract.

I agree with you about goalies though, I don't think Ortio should be moved as he definitely has potential to fill an area of need for us in the future. However I also don't think goaltending is as much of a concern as people are making it out to be, we still have Hiller/Ramo and Ortio who (in my eyes) can be capable starters the next couple years. But I'd still much rather have a package based around 1st+Klimchuk/Poirier+Wotherspoon+cap dump, as adding JVR will get rid of the need for a wing prospect.

Not just top 5 in the west, I'd say in the league. With Hamilton & Frolik in the fold, adding JVR who is a borderline first liner (who has a big body and can play RW) could be incredible for our future.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Van Reimsdyk
Klimchuk - Bennett - Poirier
________ - Jankowski - Colborne (can you imagine this line with another 6'3+ player on it? )
Bouma - Arnold - Shore/Jooris

I agree that JVR would make us a top 5-8 team, so I really don't understand why you wouldn't move a guy like Klimchuk for him. Having watched and followed Klimchuk I would consider to have middle-6 winger potential, with 2nd line as his ceiling. Honestly I'm not aure why you would be so hesitant to move him but would easily give up a potential unique game-changer like Ferland. Not saying Ferland is better, just that I feel Ferlands unique upside would help a team much more then Klimchuk's. Ferland looks like he has all the tools to be an excellent 3rd line LW, possibly a poor-man's Lucic. What gives you the idea Klimchuk can just be pencilled in as a 2nd liner and more valuable then a guy like Ferland who has just made quite a splash.

I would rather something like 2016 1st+ Klimchuk/ Poirier +Wotherspoon+dump then your offer because I think both Ferland and Ortio have potential to be important pieces of our team in the future, whereas adding JVR removes the need for keeping both potential 2nd line winger prospects.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Ideally, I'd like to do this:

Raymond
Granlund
Ortio
1st Round Pick

for

JVR
Frattin

 

[Lunatik]

Ortio can't be both easily replaceable but also a key piece in a trade for someone like Van Riemsdyk. The reality is, the Leafs would want names like Poirier, Klimchuk and maybe Andersson. The prospects that coincidentally, just happen to be the ones that some aren't that high on isn't going to get it done. If Dubas is intrigued by Jankowski, then maybe there's something that could be done. With Monahan, Bennett and Backlund on the team and Arnold looking promising, Jankowski's actually expendable.

Can't really see the Flames giving up two firsts in a row.

Who said Ortii was the key piece? The first is the key piece and then Ortio and Ferland solid secondary pieces.

 

[Lunatik]

I agree that JVR would make us a top 5-8 team, so I really don't understand why you wouldn't move a guy like Klimchuk for him. Having watched and followed Klimchuk I would consider to have middle-6 winger potential, with 2nd line as his ceiling. Honestly I'm not aure why you would be so hesitant to move him but would easily give up a potential unique game-changer like Ferland. Not saying Ferland is better, just that I feel Ferlands unique upside would help a team much more then Klimchuk's. Ferland looks like he has all the tools to be an excellent 3rd line LW, possibly a poor-man's Lucic. What gives you the idea Klimchuk can just be pencilled in as a 2nd liner and more valuable then a guy like Ferland who has just made quite a splash.

I would rather something like 2016 1st+ Klimchuk/ Poirier +Wotherspoon+dump then your offer because I think both Ferland and Ortio have potential to be important pieces of our team in the future, whereas adding JVR removes the need for keeping both potential 2nd line winger prospects.

Frankly your evaluation of prospects, players and anything hockey related to me is beyond suspect so I didn't read beyond your first sentence because I'm sure I'd say something to get myself in trouble. So I'll just state for the record (again) that I feel Klimchuk is our best prospect after Bennett and Gillies. And I am not willing to move Janko because at this stage of his development he's not going to return what I believe he will be worth.

 

[slappipappi]

Ideally, I'd like to do this:

Raymond
Granlund
Ortio
1st Round Pick

for

JVR
Frattin

It will take a least premium prospect to headline the package.

That package would be easily outbid.

 

[Volica]

Ideally, I'd like to do this:

Raymond
Granlund
Ortio
1st Round Pick

for

JVR
Frattin

Would have to think long and hard about that. No first rounder for two years running hurts.

That being said, we would move them for young NHLr's with term and upside. If TO added a second I'd be more comfortable, at least we could package up and get back into the first?

 

[Volica]

It will take a least premium prospect to headline the package.

That package would be easily outbid.

That'd be good for us, if we are giving up two A pieces (first plus premium prospect).

Kessel didn't get a premium prospect in his trade. He got an ex first rounder that had not impressed significantly.

If they want two A pieces, Brad should hang up the phone.

 

[Calculon]

I just don't understand this attitude at all... At what stage in the rebuild are we at? It's not like we're 5 years away from competing or even three years if you ask me. If we get JVR I strongly believe that within the next two years we will be highly competitive, I mean just look at how complete our roster would be even this upcoming season. The chance that our 1st next year becomes as good a player is slim to start with, then add the fact that with JVR it would likely be in the 20-30 range I don't understand the hesitation. I guess we can wait for Poirier and Klimchuk and everyone else to develop and hope they become near JVR level (16th in league scoring the past 3 years btw), but I'd rather be aggressive and get this quality young winger with a great contract.

I agree with you about goalies though, I don't think Ortio should be moved as he definitely has potential to fill an area of need for us in the future. However I also don't think goaltending is as much of a concern as people are making it out to be, we still have Hiller/Ramo and Ortio who (in my eyes) can be capable starters the next couple years. But I'd still much rather have a package based around 1st+Klimchuk/Poirier+Wotherspoon+cap dump, as adding JVR will get rid of the need for a wing prospect.

What's wrong with being patient? Frankly, basing your expectations off of a year where it's entirely possible the Flames significantly overachieved is what doesn't make sense. Nor does selling the farm for a winger of all things (I'm in Lombardi's camp here; once the centres, defense and goaltending are in place, then trade for wingers). I still think the Flames are a couple of years from becoming legit cup contenders; Bennett still needs to solidify himself as a top centre. The goaltending will have to be better than what Ramo and Hiller provide, as it's abundantly clear the team is high on neither. How Russell and Wideman perform next season is a valid question as both seem prime candidates to regress. I just don't see the rush to give up the team's top forward prospects for a winger that the Flames will have a very hard time in retaining when his contract's up.

I suggested Jankowski not because I think he is expendable, but because I don't believe that current management is actually that high on him. so if we are speculating on what a potential deal might involve, Jankowski comes to mind for me.

I've gotten that impression as well. If management was as high as some of the fans are, he would have been signed this summer. From Jankowski's interview, he clearly wanted to, so it seemingly was entirely the team's decision for him to go back for his senior year and risk him going for unrestricted free agency.

Who said Ortii was the key piece? The first is the key piece and then Ortio and Ferland solid secondary pieces.

A key piece, not "the" key piece. And calling Ortio and Ferland solid secondary pieces given your previous projections of them, seems like a massive turnaround.

Ideally, I'd like to do this:

Raymond
Granlund
Ortio
1st Round Pick

for

JVR
Frattin

Switch Ortio and the first to Janowski and a 2nd and I'd do it.

 

[Lunatik]

A key piece, not "the" key piece. And calling Ortio and Ferland solid secondary pieces given your previous projections of them, seems like a massive turnaround.

What I believe they will be and their perceived values aren't the same. I think right now both Ortio and Ferland have a higher value on the trade market than they ever have before. Also just because I don't project someone to be more than a bottom 6 forward doesn't mean I don't think they have value, take Bouma for instance I feel he is a 3rd line winger but it would take one hell of an overpayment to make me consider including him in a proposal. Quite frankly after seeing the Kessel, Hamilton and Oshie returns I think a 1st and 2 mid-level prospects is more than fair value for JVR.

I am also all for being patient, but I believe it's a buyers market right now and you have to strike while the iron is hot.

 

[Calculon]

A team wouldn't be all that keen on trading for Ortio if they believed they could just claim him on waivers in a couple of months. And since Feaster isn't part of the Leafs management group, I don't see them acquiring Ortio just so they can take on the risk of waiving him. If they wanted Ortio that badly, it'd be to play in the NHL so claiming him on waivers would work just fine. If the intent was on Ortio playing in the AHL, he'd be nothing more than a small piece of a much bigger trade and the Leafs would wait until the Flames took on the risk of Ortio clearing waivers before pulling the trigger.

 

[Sparky93]

Wouldn't the Leafs be in the exact same situation as we are with Ortio, at risk to losing him, passing through waivers?

 

[Skobel24]

He’s the Salo to their Milbury.

I neither dislike nor like Janko, but I think he’s been given a rough deal here. Might be nice for a change of scenery.

That’d be five straight first rounds that would harbour a), busts, b), no picks, or c), trades. Yeesh.

2008 - Nemisz (a, c). 2009 - Erixon (a, c). 2010 - No pick (b). 2011 - Baertschi (a, c). 2012 - Jankowski (c).

How has Jankowski been given a rough deal here?

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

It will take a least premium prospect to headline the package.

That package would be easily outbid.

I don't think it's any secret that TO is selling off pieces, if it would be outbid, I'm sure JVR would have been traded by now. Most teams rarely ever trade premium prospects, ever. Kessel didn't get any, neither did Dion or else he would have been traded. A 1at rounder and 2 x B-level ready prospects in Granlund and Ortio is not bad value IMO.

JVR will cost less than it cost to acquire Hamilton, I don't think my proposal is that far off.

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

I don't think it's any secret that TO is selling off pieces, if it would be outbid, I'm sure JVR would have been traded by now. Most teams rarely ever trade premium prospects, ever. Kessel didn't get any, neither did Dion or else he would have been traded. A 1at rounder and 2 x B-level ready prospects in Granlund and Ortio is not bad value IMO.

JVR will cost less than it cost to acquire Hamilton, I don't think my proposal is that far off.

I was listening Friedman talk today and said they could move JVR anytime they want.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Wouldn't the Leafs be in the exact same situation as we are with Ortio, at risk to losing him, passing through waivers?

Yes, but they could deal Riemer for further assets.

 

[Lunatik]

Yes, but they could deal Riemer for further assets.

Or he could be included as the contract dump and we could shop him around.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Quite frankly after seeing the Kessel, Hamilton and Oshie returns I think a 1st and 2 mid-level prospects is more than fair value for JVR.

Funny I typed my last post before I read that you posted this. I think we both agree on his value.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I was listening Friedman talk today and said they could move JVR anytime they want.

Exactly, everyone knows that everyone on the Leafs is available. If they got that "premium" asset in an offer JVR, he would have been moved already. No one is going to offer their top prospect, unless that guy is Virtanen for example, even then it's a stretch.

 

[slappipappi]

That'd be good for us, if we are giving up two A pieces (first plus premium prospect).

Kessel didn't get a premium prospect in his trade. He got an ex first rounder that had not impressed significantly.

If they want two A pieces, Brad should hang up the phone.

Apples and oranges, Kessell was on a bad contract, vs. a suburb contract.

WHo's the premium prospect in your proposal?

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Apples and oranges, Kessell was on a bad contract, vs. a suburb contract.

WHo's the premium prospect in your proposal?

Kessel is an elite player though. JVR is a very good top 6 winger, but not an player like Phil.

 

[Lunatik]

Apples and oranges, Kessell was on a bad contract, vs. a suburb contract.

WHo's the premium prospect in your proposal?

After the Leafs ate $1.2 Kessel no longer had a bad contract though. It's not a deal, but not bad either.

 

[Volica]

Apples and oranges, Kessell was on a bad contract, vs. a suburb contract.

WHo's the premium prospect in your proposal?

You're absolutely right. One is a top 10 scorer in the league and one is a solid top six winger. So why should JVR get a bigger deal? Even with a sweet heart contract?

The premium piece is the first. If Calgary has to give up two, they should hang up the phone.