Speculation: Source of the "divide" in the room

[Trinity]

Yep, @cbcwpg is the one that the players are fighting over to sleep with.

Wow he/she must be hot!

 

[Duke749]

Are all the young guys being used in front line roles though?

Morrissey was third/fourth in ice time per game behind Buff, Trouba and Myers (2017) all the while being the teams most impacful dmen. It took him until this year to get consistent PP minutes. Id say in his case the coaching staff was too slow to give him the responsibities and special teams time that his play warranted.

Same thing with Trouba and being stuck behind Myers for PP time until this past year.

Roslovic stuck on the fourth line with limited special teams ice time.

Ehlers playing on the second line with second Pp time and no short handed time isn't a role that he is likely happy with (Especially when his metrics are usually amongst the best on the team)

Laine stuck behind Wheeler for ES time.

Conner is really the only young guy other then Scheifele and Helle who has nothing to complain about role wise.

Maurice still gives his vets the lions share of ice time and uses them in key roles.

Wheeler and Buff continually are leaned on heavily in all roles and see the most ice time for their respective positions on the team.

Little is still used heavily on special teams (pp and pk). He is currently occupying a pp slot that could be taken by a young talented guy like Roslovic.

Maurice trust Myers/Chariot/Kuli over a highly talented Niku. Look at Colorado right now. Their coach has zero issue playing offensive minded d like Makar and Girard in the playoffs.

All those dam puck movers man... :drools:

 

[Duke749]

I haven't read every single post in the thread but that's the vibe I'm getting too. Although I would specify HFBoards hate the captain versus fans at large.

Having not read every single post, I don't know if this has been brought up, but it's certainly not been mentioned enough to appear in the many posts I have ... Trouba as a source of discontent/divide in the room. Since this is all speculation anyway, here's my speculation ... people talk about players being unhappy with their ice time. Well, wouldn't it make sense to look at the guy who demanded a trade because he wasn't getting the ice time and especially the ice time at the position he wants to play? And he's one of the guys who's been around longer so younger guys will look to him to some degree. People argue it's perfectly legit for Trouba to pout and demand a trade because in a team sport he doesn't get to dictate where and when he plays on the ice.

But in my view, this being a team sport, that attitude is toxic. So if young impressionable guys see that, they could more easily get disgruntled with playing their off-wing or not getting as much ice time as they get, rather than thinking team-first. The fact that the team indirectly caved to Trouba (gave him the ice time he craved at RD) in a way legitimized this self-serving and short-sighted way of viewing things. So now several other players are upset/hurt that they don't get to play as much as they want/where they want. Leads to more discontent with the top players getting that ice time etc.

Trouba wants out, and I've long thought it was a mistake to keep him after he demanded a trade and for the reasons he did. I hope he's gone this season, and I'd bet (not much mind you, maybe a beer or something) that the team improves by his removal even if we don't score a #1 or #2 D man to replace him.

Ya know this is something that hasn’t been dug into much around here but probably because we can’t see it as well as the players or coaches might, but you could absolutely be 100% correct in this. Great post and impressive thinking.

 

[rubikscube]

I figured he was being purposely sarcastic as a satire of the entire thread.

D'oh! Stupid me!

 

[sipowicz]

I have zero clue what the locker room issues are, but I'm positive it's Blake Wheeler.

You mean teachers pet and teachers pets pet (#55)!

 

[sipowicz]

I have zero clue what the locker room issues are, but I'm positive it's Blake Wheeler.

Also can't forget Big Baby Buff's temper tantrum on the bench when he missed a whole PP, and the guy wears a letter!?!

 

[ovythegiraffe]

I haven't read every single post in the thread but that's the vibe I'm getting too. Although I would specify HFBoards hate the captain versus fans at large.

Having not read every single post, I don't know if this has been brought up, but it's certainly not been mentioned enough to appear in the many posts I have ... Trouba as a source of discontent/divide in the room. Since this is all speculation anyway, here's my speculation ... people talk about players being unhappy with their ice time. Well, wouldn't it make sense to look at the guy who demanded a trade because he wasn't getting the ice time and especially the ice time at the position he wants to play? And he's one of the guys who's been around longer so younger guys will look to him to some degree. People argue it's perfectly legit for Trouba to pout and demand a trade because in a team sport he doesn't get to dictate where and when he plays on the ice.

But in my view, this being a team sport, that attitude is toxic. So if young impressionable guys see that, they could more easily get disgruntled with playing their off-wing or not getting as much ice time as they get, rather than thinking team-first. The fact that the team indirectly caved to Trouba (gave him the ice time he craved at RD) in a way legitimized this self-serving and short-sighted way of viewing things. So now several other players are upset/hurt that they don't get to play as much as they want/where they want. Leads to more discontent with the top players getting that ice time etc.

Trouba wants out, and I've long thought it was a mistake to keep him after he demanded a trade and for the reasons he did. I hope he's gone this season, and I'd bet (not much mind you, maybe a beer or something) that the team improves by his removal even if we don't score a #1 or #2 D man to replace him.

I agree with you on that Trouba might have had a role on setting up a bad example, but I still think the young guys had a fair reason to expect more ice time. Looking at their production now, there's of course no way anyone could argue that Laine or Ehlers should've gotten more ice-time than they did this season, but the expectations for the season were much different.

Premise for the season, at least by fans and the media, was that Jets are a shoe in for the playoffs, some medias even ranked us as the cup favorite. No reason to overplay your top line in that situation, spread the ice time to give everyone more sense of responsibility. If the young guys can't handle it, then you might have to rely more on the top guys towards the end of the season. But Maurice did the exact opposite, not as a reaction to anyone playing bad but straight from the start of the season, which makes no sense to me. Ad to that Maurice also being incredibly reluctant to do any line shuffling and I would understand if it was a bit disheartening to some. I mean they could've shaved 2-3 minutes of Scheifle's and Wheeler's ice-time and they still would've been right up there with most 1st line players in the league.

 

[KingBogo]

Are all the young guys being used in front line roles though?

Morrissey was third/fourth in ice time per game behind Buff, Trouba and Myers (2017) all the while being the teams most impacful dmen. It took him until this year to get consistent PP minutes. Id say in his case the coaching staff was too slow to give him the responsibities and special teams time that his play warranted.

Same thing with Trouba and being stuck behind Myers for PP time until this past year.

Roslovic stuck on the fourth line with limited special teams ice time.

Ehlers playing on the second line with second Pp time and no short handed time isn't a role that he is likely happy with (Especially when his metrics are usually amongst the best on the team)

Laine stuck behind Wheeler for ES time.

Conner is really the only young guy other then Scheifele and Helle who has nothing to complain about role wise.

Maurice still gives his vets the lions share of ice time and uses them in key roles.

Wheeler and Buff continually are leaned on heavily in all roles and see the most ice time for their respective positions on the team.

Little is still used heavily on special teams (pp and pk). He is currently occupying a pp slot that could be taken by a young talented guy like Roslovic.

Maurice trust Myers/Chariot/Kuli over a highly talented Niku. Look at Colorado right now. Their coach has zero issue playing offensive minded d like Makar and Girard in the playoffs.

If even half of what you said has caused hard feelings to the extent of causing a divide we are royally screwed because if this is the case I can't imagine a more pampered and entitled young core group. Chevy should just go out and turn it all over and rebuild the young core because they will never get us anywhere.

 

[surixon]

If even half of what you said has caused hard feelings to the extent of causing a divide we are royally screwed because if this is the case I can't imagine a more pampered and entitled young core group. Chevy should just go out and turn it all over and rebuild the young core because they will never get us anywhere.

I don't know where you are getting pampered from that. All I was doing was showing that despite strong results most of the kids haven't gotten the prime roles on the team, those still are granted to the vets even if their performance isn't always deserving of the trust and leash they have received.

I really don't blame players for wanting roles they feel that they have earned. It also doesn't have to manifest in locker room issues or hard feelings. In some instances it has impacted Chevy's ability to get some of these kids to long term deals. JoMo wanted a bridge and held out for it to show what he could do with a larger role. He may have been more receptive to signing a long term deal had he gotten regular PP time to prove himself prior to signing his deal. Its not like he hadn't earned it with his strong play. Conner won't have an issue with signing long term because he is the one young guys who has been put in the perfect spot to maximize his earnings. Laine will be interesting given his year but I would think it will be difficult for both sides to settle on a long term number.

I think some of the issues stem from the fact that no matter what Scheifele and Wheeler are joined at the hip and there is only one winger spot that gets cycled through on that line. Anyhow it is a young persons league now and many teams are really embracing it and putting their kids in prime spots over vets. It doesn't matter that it's the playoffs but Makar steps right into a PP role and being matched up with MacKinnon. Our coach would never dream of that with a player like Niku who excels in a pp role. The kid needs to put in the time and wait his turn. I get that there is still some value in that type of thinking but more and more teams are getting better at putting a player who has the right skill set in certain roles, no matter the age.

 

[KingBogo]

I don't know where you are getting pampered from that. All I was doing was showing that despite strong results most of the kids haven't gotten the prime roles on the team, those still are granted to the vets even if their performance isn't always deserving of the trust and leash they have received.

I really don't blame players for wanting roles they feel that they have earned. It also doesn't have to manifest in locker room issues or hard feelings. In some instances it has impacted Chevy's ability to get some of these kids to long term deals. JoMo wanted a bridge and held out for it to show what he could do with a larger role. He may have been more receptive to signing a long term deal had he gotten regular PP time to prove himself prior to signing his deal. Its not like he hadn't earned it with his strong play. Conner won't have an issue with signing long term because he is the one young guys who has been put in the perfect spot to maximize his earnings. Laine will be interesting given his year but I would think it will be difficult for both sides to settle on a long term number.

I think some of the issues stem from the fact that no matter what Scheifele and Wheeler are joined at the hip and there is only one winger spot that gets cycled through on that line. Anyhow it is a young persons league now and many teams are really embracing it and putting their kids in prime spots over vets. It doesn't matter that it's the playoffs but Makar steps right into a PP role and being matched up with MacKinnon. Our coach would never dream of that with a player like Niku who excels in a pp role. The kid needs to put in the time and wait his turn. I get that there is still some value in that type of thinking but more and more teams are getting better at putting a player who has the right skill set in certain roles, no matter the age.

Every time you post at length about this I got more and more concerned about our future. I tend to be pretty optimistic, but this supposedly fragile nature of our young core is very concerning. For most of the season we had only 3 players older than 25 y/o play in our top 6 forwards or in our top 4 defense. At the same time most of the vets get pushed further and further down the lineup yet they are the problem? In his late 20's Buff an all star defenseman was relegated to playing 3rd line RW, but played through and refocused his game and became an all star defenseman again. 2 seasons in a row Chevy brought in a TD acquisition center that pushed Little down the line up and he remained a team first player. Myers remained a team first player taking on a 3rd pairing role. Matty P gets relegated to the 4th line as often as I pull my trash can to the curb. I'm not saying the future isn't in the young core, but isn't at least some of them willing to pay their dues and push past those in their way? You mention Makar gifted PP time, but so was Laine. If he was a young center he wouldn't be gifted it ahead MacKinnon no matter how good he was. Niku isn't going to be gifted it ahead of Buff for the same reason.

 

[lomiller1]

Average shift length (2018/19):

Scheifele: 55s
Wheeler: 51s
Connor: 54s
Laine: 52s

There goes the narrative that the long shift length is an issue of the "vets" vs. "youth". It's actually a function of who's on the PP1, which gets longer shifts.

~1 second per PP if the PP1 is running 1:30. Those numbers should still be in the 40's not the 50's.

 

[surixon]

Every time you post at length about this I got more and more concerned about our future. I tend to be pretty optimistic, but this supposedly fragile nature of our young core is very concerning. For most of the season we had only 2 players older than 25 y/o play in our top 6 forwards or in our top 4 defense. At the same time most of the vets get pushed further and further down the lineup yet they are the problem? In his late 20's Buff an all star defenseman was relegated to playing 3rd line RW, but played through and refocused his game and became an all star defenseman again. 2 seasons in a row Chevy brought in a TD acquisition center that pushed Little down the line up and he remained a team first player. Myers remained a team first player taking on a 3rd pairing role. Matty P gets relegated to the 4th line as often as I pull my trash can to the curb. I'm not saying the future isn't in the young core, but isn't at least some of them willing to pay their dues and push past those in their way? You mention Makar gifted PP time, but so was Laine. If he was a young center he wouldn't be gifted it ahead MacKinnon no matter how good he was. Niku isn't going to be gifted it ahead of Buff for the same reason.

I actually have a different view, I actually think this will be good for the team in the long run. I think it forces players to look in the mirror and question how they do things, failure can be the catalyst for self reflection and change. I think to a player they now know that they can't half ass a season and need to play the correct way. I also think they realize now how infighting can derail their goals. I think we see a better team next year.

On the coaching front if Moe is better at holding all players accountable I think that will also help int he room.

With regards to your last example I think there is a difference for a player if your stuck behind a superior player (Some exceptions like Trouba exist) where they will easily fall in line. I think players have a very good understanding of where they stack on a team talent and performance wise. So to me it would be easier to accept a lesser role if the players ahead of me a superior talents. I think that is the case with Little and Myers (Both know that the players ahead of them are better than them). In other cases it is harder to accept playing behind players that you believe yourself to be better then. On the Buff front we agree, vet or not Buff has the best results in that position given the scheme and should have that spot based on skillset and performance.

 

[Whileee]

~1 second per PP if the PP1 is running 1:30. Those numbers should still be in the 40's not the 50's.

You indicated that the long shift lengths by Scheifele and Wheeler were a source of problem vis-a-vis younger players, showing a lack of accountability by the vets. The shift length for young guns Connor and Laine was the same, undercutting your argument.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

That is probably the one thing that cannot be overcome. You sleep with a teammates' wife/girlfriend, and somebody has to be shipped out.

However, if you sleep with your teammate's GF but not his wife, I think that's a bit of a grey area. And you can't overlook the possibility that the teammates and their wives (and/or girlfriends) all ended up in a big silk sheeted mosh pit of mutual consent. Lifestyles of the rich and famous rarely follow societal norms.

 

[Board Bard]

You indicated that the long shift lengths by Scheifele and Wheeler were a source of problem vis-a-vis younger players, showing a lack of accountability by the vets. The shift length for young guns Connor and Laine was the same, undercutting your argument.

Not really, average shift length isn't very telling. Individual extra-long shifts tire and expose the player worse than a marginally higher average does. Wheeler started the season being a good boy but it wasn't long before he and Scheifele were extending blatantly and with regularity.

 

[sipowicz]

Not really, average shift length isn't very telling. Individual extra-long shifts tire and expose the player worse than a marginally higher average does. Wheeler started the season being a good boy but it wasn't long before he and Scheifele were extending blatantly and with regularity.

Which in turn started to really hurt the team more than it was helping, Wheeler, Schief and Buff to an extent really came across as prima donnas this past season, guys looking to pad their stats more than helping their team, Wheeler gassed by the third period when the team actually managed to hold a lead until the end of the game but going all out with 100% effort when the opposition net was empty!

 

[JetsFan815]

Average shift length (2018/19):

Scheifele: 55s
Wheeler: 51s
Connor: 54s
Laine: 52s

There goes the narrative that the long shift length is an issue of the "vets" vs. "youth". It's actually a function of who's on the PP1, which gets longer shifts.

I would like to see even strength shift lengths and where they land. Would be nice to see frequency distribution of shift lengths for Jets players and see how they compare (within the team and across the league), my guess is that there won't be a big difference between the vets and youth but across the board we might see most shifts falling in high 40s which is not ideal.

There is lots of research out there that shows that ~40 seconds is the longest forwards should go before their results start to drop dramatically. For the Jets only a few players (mainly bottom-6rs) kept their shift length under 42 secs. Our D shifts in general are too long, I didn't realize until I checked that no dman is under 50 seconds average, that seems 6-10 seconds too high.

 

[Whileee]

I would like to see even strength shift lengths and where they land. Would be nice to see frequency distribution of shift lengths for Jets players and see how they compare (within the team and across the league), my guess is that there won't be a big difference between the vets and youth but across the board we might see most shifts falling in high 40s which is not ideal.

There is lots of research out there that shows that ~40 seconds is the longest forwards should go before their results start to drop dramatically. For the Jets only a few players (mainly bottom-6rs) kept their shift length under 42 secs. Our D shifts in general are too long, I didn't realize until I checked that no dman is under 50 seconds average, that seems 6-10 seconds too high.

Agree. Average shift length can be highly misleading, because it depends a lot on whether the player is on the PP1 and on the PK. D can get caught for long PK shifts, whereas many forward PK shifts are very short, which affects average shift lengths.

We have all witnessed Scheifele and Wheeler take shifts that are too long, but I think we tend to notice those shifts and not all of the shifts where the length was normal.

Over the years, Buff has always taken a few seconds longer on his shifts than Trouba or other D (around 3-5 seconds, when I looked at EV shift length a while ago). That doesn't seem like a lot, but when you are having 20+ shifts a game it boosts EV ice-time by 1-2 minutes.

 

[Board Bard]

We have all witnessed Scheifele and Wheeler take shifts that are too long, but I think we tend to notice those shifts and not all of the shifts where the length was normal.

Should we praise them also for keeping their sticks on the ice? For not falling down? Length-wise, on shifts when they got off routinely there was nothing to notice that was different from the norm, and nothing really to comment on. Still, there were posters who did notice and did comment on it, as 26 and 55 had demonstrated their ice hogging the year before. But they had normal shifts too? Sure, most of them. So what? They also had a bunch that were less than 50 seconds to bring their average down. Their normal shifts weren't the problem, they weren't the ones that turned them into gasping humps.

 

[Jets 31]

As soon as Trouba let it be known he wanted out Chevy should have traded him . Problem though is what if Chevy tried and was getting crappy offers ?This very well could be the same situation as Kane and Buff needs to throw Trouba in the shower to fix the problem . As far as young guys not getting enough ice time i look at Roslovic , he got lots of opportunity to play for a guy that basically did nothing with that opportunity . I think Roslovic has talent but if he's not producing anything how can Maurice keep giving him ice time ? We are a contending team right now so i can see wanting to lean on veterans a little more to get over the hump .

 

[jetsfan15]

Disappointment but no dissension in Jet's dressing room, Hendricks says

I will leave this here.

As indicated many time before on these boards by many people, there is still no real evidence of anything significant regarding “locker room issues” - all the articles that say that there were locker room issues fail to shed any kind of light on the matter, which to me demonstrates that it’s all speculation and no substance. I don’t think there were any locker room issues beyond the team simply being upset that they were losing games/slumping (which isn’t abnormal - most good teams get frustrated when they go on a big slump).

 

[Whileee]

Disappointment but no dissension in Jet's dressing room, Hendricks says

I will leave this here.

As indicated many time before on these boards by many people, there is still no real evidence of anything significant regarding “locker room issues” - all the articles that say that there were locker room issues fail to shed any kind of light on the matter, which to me demonstrates that it’s all speculation and no substance. I don’t think there were any locker room issues beyond the team simply being upset that they were losing games/slumping (which isn’t abnormal - most good teams get frustrated when they go on a big slump).

Well, you know, Hendricks is a liar, just like Morrissey and Lowry...

 

[Ducky10]

Disappointment but no dissension in Jet's dressing room, Hendricks says

I will leave this here.

As indicated many time before on these boards by many people, there is still no real evidence of anything significant regarding “locker room issues” - all the articles that say that there were locker room issues fail to shed any kind of light on the matter, which to me demonstrates that it’s all speculation and no substance. I don’t think there were any locker room issues beyond the team simply being upset that they were losing games/slumping (which isn’t abnormal - most good teams get frustrated when they go on a big slump).

 

[Howard Chuck]

Honestly, I don't think there is animosity between players, I just think that some are frustrated. We have some very high end talent and they are used to being the go-to guys on their past teams. Now they are simply rotated around seemingly on a whim.

This summer, I hope we see some moves. I think our biggest need is a high end 2C, because we simply aren't taking advantage of our abundance of high end wingers.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Well, you know, Hendricks is a liar, just like Morrissey and Lowry...

I have no reason to believe him, either. It makes absolutely no sense to have brought him back if there wasn't a desperate need to apply a quick bandage the the hemorraghing morale.