Solutions to Fix the Avs

[BoxOfChocolates]

imagine if we had missed the playoffs that year... god damn.

To be fair, who knows what happens in this alternate universe. The Avs probably go out and get better players than Tucker and Raycroft, and odds are Stastny and Sakic both don't get injured.

Probably would've given up a pick in the teens.

 

[ABasin]

I don't know enough about quantum physics. So I just worry about the present and future. Hard to change a trade for a player that has already retired and a GM from 2 regimes ago. Try as you may.

No worries, bud. Just a little trip down memory lane…

 

[tigervixxxen]

I don't know enough about quantum physics. So I just worry about the present and future. Hard to change a trade for a player that has already retired and a GM from 2 regimes ago. Try as you may.

Oh sure, many many what IFs. But every single time someone says "boy would be nice to have a mid 20s left handed top pairing D" can't help but think...

 

[Avs_19]

While we're at it, lets get AB's thoughts on Forsberg's comeback(s).

 

[ABasin]

While we're at it, lets get AB's thoughts on Forsberg's comeback(s).

OK, now this is getting downright nasty.

It does bring up a thought about perspective though. In all of my years as an Avs fan, nothing was worse than those few years when Avs management kept going back into the old dusty bin of the glory years, not realizing that a rebuild was imminent. To me, that was even worse than the ugly Sacco years in some respects, because some decisions around players and assets were so obviously flawed, it drove me nuts. And the above-mentioned "comeback" was the worst of the lot. I was fairly outspoken about it (and against it) at the time, if I remember correctly. Ditto with the Foote trade.

Compared to that silly nonsense, I'll take a couple of extra years of Brad Stuart any day.

 

[CobraAcesS]

OK, now this is getting downright nasty.

It does bring up a thought about perspective though. In all of my years as an Avs fan, nothing was worse than those few years when Avs management kept going back into the old dusty bin of the glory years, not realizing that a rebuild was imminent. To me, that was even worse than the ugly Sacco years in some respects, because some decisions around players and assets were so obviously flawed, it drove me nuts. And the above-mentioned "comeback" was the worst of the lot. I was fairly outspoken about it (and against it) at the time, if I remember correctly. Ditto with the Foote trade.

Compared to that silly nonsense, I'll take a couple of extra years of Brad Stuart any day.

I will say, I actually wish Forsberg would have given it a little longer on his last attempt. I think he put too much pressure on himself to perform offensively immediately.

Edit : In his last attempt he was actually better than 2/3rds of the forwards on the team almost immediately. He wasn't making defensive mistakes or holding any line back. In-fact a lot of his setups were not being capitalized on at the time.

 

[Bubba Thudd]

OK, now this is getting downright nasty.

It does bring up a thought about perspective though. In all of my years as an Avs fan, nothing was worse than those few years when Avs management kept going back into the old dusty bin of the glory years, not realizing that a rebuild was imminent. To me, that was even worse than the ugly Sacco years in some respects, because some decisions around players and assets were so obviously flawed, it drove me nuts. And the above-mentioned "comeback" was the worst of the lot. I was fairly outspoken about it (and against it) at the time, if I remember correctly. Ditto with the Foote trade.

Compared to that silly nonsense, I'll take a couple of extra years of Brad Stuart any day.

Didn't you want to trade Sakic during his last years as well?
And Hejduk?

 

[cgf]

OK, now this is getting downright nasty.

It does bring up a thought about perspective though. In all of my years as an Avs fan, nothing was worse than those few years when Avs management kept going back into the old dusty bin of the glory years, not realizing that a rebuild was imminent. To me, that was even worse than the ugly Sacco years in some respects, because some decisions around players and assets were so obviously flawed, it drove me nuts. And the above-mentioned "comeback" was the worst of the lot. I was fairly outspoken about it (and against it) at the time, if I remember correctly. Ditto with the Foote trade.

Compared to that silly nonsense, I'll take a couple of extra years of Brad Stuart any day.

I'm with you on this. I could barely even watch Joe's final two seasons, seeing the team devastate itself like that was just too painful. The Sacco years where infinitely more enjoyable than that.

 

[ABasin]

Didn't you want to trade Sakic during his last years as well?
And Hejduk?

Yes and yes.

It was obvious to me after that first lockout that armageddon was coming, and a full rebuild was necessary. And since I don't fall in love with individual players, I felt this was the best way to rebuild quickly without multiple years of last-place pain (which of course, we subsequently endured).

Hence, I was quite adamant in my position(s) around trading Sakic and Hejduk in their latter years, and around not (re)obtaining massively broken down versions of Foote and Forsberg. I also felt the latter one was to simply pull on the emotions of fans, rather than a real hockey move. Which I personally felt was…..I don't know….almost insulting or something. Such a lame move that obviously (to me) wasn't going to work.

 

[ABasin]

I'm with you on this. I could barely even watch Joe's final two seasons, seeing the team devastate itself like that was just too painful. The Sacco years where infinitely more enjoyable than that.

Most definitely so, because the Avs were at least obtaining real quality young talent, and there was something worthwhile looking forward to. And for me, knowing that the Avs' run was over and they needed to totally rebuild, combined with the Avs management evidently not knowing it (or acting like they didn't), was maddeningly frustrating for me. As bad a coach as Sacco was, at least Avs management was doing the right things from a rebuilding standpoint.

 

[dahrougem2]

Yes and yes.

It was obvious to me after that first lockout that armageddon was coming, and a full rebuild was necessary. And since I don't fall in love with individual players, I felt this was the best way to rebuild quickly without multiple years of last-place pain (which of course, we subsequently endured).

Hence, I was quite adamant in my position(s) around trading Sakic and Hejduk in their latter years, and around not (re)obtaining massively broken down versions of Foote and Forsberg. I also felt the latter one was to simply pull on the emotions of fans, rather than a real hockey move. Which I personally felt was…..I don't know….almost insulting or something. Such a lame move that obviously (to me) wasn't going to work.

I don't know, Hejduk maybe since he had fallen off quite considerably in his latter years, but absolutely not to Sakic. You just don't trade guys like that who play their whole careers with one organization, and IIRC he was still producing at a very good clip. 2nd last season, albeit injury riddled, he still had 40 points in 44 games. And he started his final season with 12 points in 15 games before the freak accident.

Imagine Sakic hadn't had that freak injury and decided to play 1 more season. It would have been nice to see him mentoring Duchene and O'Reilly for a year. I know Duchene would have loved that

 

[CobraAcesS]

I don't know, Hejduk maybe since he had fallen off quite considerably in his latter years, but absolutely not to Sakic. You just don't trade guys like that who play their whole careers with one organization, and IIRC he was still producing at a very good clip. 2nd last season, albeit injury riddled, he still had 40 points in 44 games. And he started his final season with 12 points in 15 games before the freak accident.

Imagine Sakic hadn't had that freak injury and decided to play 1 more season. It would have been nice to see him mentoring Duchene and O'Reilly for a year. I know Duchene would have loved that

We probably wouldn't of drafted that high if Sakic had played another year(Healthy).

Edit : As to the solution...

Trade Hishon & Wilson-Cap dump for Vermette, I don't really see Hishon having a real future on this team, and Phoenix would value him enough with their need for offensively skilled prospects.

Trade Elliott (Plus if needed) for Sekera, the plus would probably have to be our 2015 2nd, but we love giving those out. Carolina could actually play Elliott and give him the time he needs to work out the defensive issues at the NHL level, plus the East is less physical so I think Elliott would have a better chance of making it.

O'Reilly - Duchene -

Landeskog - MacKinnon -

McGinn - Vermette -

McLeod - Mitchell -

Iginla, Tanguay, Talbot, Briere, Winchester (Cliche waived)

Sekera - EJ

Holden - Barrie

Stuart - Redmond

Hejda (Guenin waived)

Another edit : yes the salary works, especially with the IRs we've had

 

[m0ngr31]

I'd love to get Vermette, but I think he'd probably cost a little more than that, but I'd be happy to pay it.

 

[dahrougem2]

I think it's going to take a lot more to get Sekera than just Elliott and a 2015 2nd. IMO Carolina will be looking for a 1st round pick, something I don't want to give up at the moment

 

[CobraAcesS]

I think it's going to take a lot more to get Sekera than just Elliott and a 2015 2nd. IMO Carolina will be looking for a 1st round pick, something I don't want to give up at the moment

I just don't see them getting a first round pick in this draft to be honest. They'd get a hard asset in Elliott, who needs development but has the tools and frame to be in the NHL. On top of that they get a 2nd round pick in a deep draft, and our 2nd rounder is likely to be better than most teams right now, even if we did make the playoffs.

I don't even think contenders are going to be throwing around 1st rounders this year TBH.

Edit : In good draft years, contenders pick up guys like Pearson and Teravainen late in the first round.

I'd love to get Vermette, but I think he'd probably cost a little more than that, but I'd be happy to pay it.

Just send them the video of Hishon in the playoffs last year lol.

 

[ABasin]

I don't know, Hejduk maybe since he had fallen off quite considerably in his latter years, but absolutely not to Sakic. You just don't trade guys like that who play their whole careers with one organization,

We don't have to rehash all of the discussions from those past years, but I adamantly disagreed then, as I do today.

 

[shadow1]

I think I have some wooden nickels for any NHL GM that thinks Stefan Elliott has trade value.

 

[Bender]

I just don't see them getting a first round pick in this draft to be honest. They'd get a hard asset in Elliott, who needs development but has the tools and frame to be in the NHL. On top of that they get a 2nd round pick in a deep draft, and our 2nd rounder is likely to be better than most teams right now, even if we did make the playoffs.

I don't even think contenders are going to be throwing around 1st rounders this year TBH.

Edit : In good draft years, contenders pick up guys like Pearson and Teravainen late in the first round.



Just send them the video of Hishon in the playoffs last year lol.

There would easily be 8 to 10 teams seriously interested in acquiring Sekera. A 2nd round pick + a guy they could have picked up for free off waivers is an extremely weak return even with a great draft class.

I'd be willing to bet that if Sekera was indeed available, they would definitely get that 1st round pick from someone...maybe even us. As I mentioned before, a 1st round pick from the 'deepest draft since 2003' doesn't likely help us for another 3 years. Would I prefer if the Avs hung on to that pick? Yes. Do I think they WILL when push comes to shove? No. Because I don't see them having that much patience with this defensive group. I don't see Hejda holding up for a whole season on the top pair, same thing with Stuart and while Holden has made strides to improve in the last year, playing on the top pair is still a huge stretch for him. We desperately need a guy to be able to play a two-way game with EJ and log a lot of minutes. Hell, as I and a few others have pointed out, in an ideal world we also even need a solid #3-4 guy as well to turn our D from a weak point to a strength.

Look at the 2003 crop:
1 1 Pittsburgh Marc-Andre Fleury
1 2 Carolina Eric Staal C
1 3 Florida Nathan Horton C
1 4 Columbus Nikolai Zherdev R
1 5 Buffalo Thomas Vanek R
1 6 San Jose Milan Michalek L
1 7 Nashville Ryan Suter D
1 8 Atlanta Braydon Coburn D
1 9 Calgary Dion Phaneuf D
1 10 Montreal Andrei Kostitsyn R
1 11 Philadelphia Jeff Carter C
1 12 NY Rangers Hugh Jessiman R (lol)
1 13 Los Angeles Dustin Brown R
1 14 Chicago Brent Seabrook D
1 15 NY Islanders Robert Nilsson C
1 16 San Jose Steve Bernier R
1 17 New Jersey Zach Parise C
1 18 Washington Eric Fehr R
1 19 Anaheim Ryan Getzlaf C
1 20 Minnesota Brent Burns D
1 21 Boston Mark Stuart D
1 22 Edmonton Marc-Antoine Pouliot C
1 23 Vancouver Ryan Kesler C
1 24 Philadelphia Mike Richards C
1 25 Florida Anthony Stewart R
1 26 Los Angeles Brian Boyle C
1 27 Los Angeles Jeff Tambellini R
1 28 Anaheim Corey Perry R
1 29 Ottawa Patrick Eaves R
1 30 St. Louis Shawn Belle D

You have to look at it this way: which of those players are definitely better than Sekera in the slots from #10 to #30?? (By acquiring Sekera and addressing our biggest weakness, we wouldn't be forking over a top 10 pick - it can be top 10 protected if it helps you sleep at night ) Nine by my count. So 9 out of 20. Essentially, there's a better than 50% chance that the draft pick we send the other way, wouldn't even end up being better than the guy we acquired. This is why the Hurricanes would likely ask for a decent prospect as well just for insurance.

This is just an example but it's used with what is generally recognized as possibly the best 1st round draft class in history. It still remains to be seen just how good this draft class will be...

 

[tigervixxxen]

He's a pending UFA for god sakes. Throw money at him this summer if you want him that bad.

I get it, you trade for him and you have the best shot at signing him but that's no guarantee. Also he makes the team better for a couple months. If they need him that bad and have lost all faith in the D then this team isn't going anywhere. So we give up a potentially huge piece of our future to get marginally better for a couple months. Sounds like a fabulous trade off to me.

 

[Avelanche]

Sekera is almost too good to be true. I wonder if Bigras or Siemens plus a second would do. Canes are in dire need of D prospects. Feel like they could get more though.

 

[CobraAcesS]

He's a pending UFA for god sakes. Throw money at him this summer if you want him that bad.

I get it, you trade for him and you have the best shot at signing him but that's no guarantee. Also he makes the team better for a couple months. If they need him that bad and have lost all faith in the D then this team isn't going anywhere. So we give up a potentially huge piece of our future to get marginally better for a couple months. Sounds like a fabulous trade off to me.

This is why I'm not sure I'd go up to the 1st round pick, unless it was conditional on him resigning with us, as well as being conditional on us making the playoffs.

As far as Elliott not having value, I will maintain that the biggest reason he didn't get picked up on waivers was the timing in which he was sent down.

We do also have other prospects, they'd probably like Will Butcher as well. They need defense prospects IMO.

Sekera is almost too good to be true. I wonder if Bigras or Siemens plus a second would do. Canes are in dire need of D prospects. Feel like they could get more though.

No one is going to give them more, let alone even a prospect at Siemens/Bigras level for a pending UFA. I'd rather ride out the storm in that case.

The only short contract defender that I'd give up a prospect of that level for is Giordano.

 

[Avelanche]

No one is going to give them more, let alone even a prospect at Siemens/Bigras level for a pending UFA. I'd rather ride out the storm in that case.

You're right. Thought he was extended last year for some reason.

 

[Freudian]

Pending UFAs almost never extend their contracts immediately. They want to see what the city is like, what the team is like and what the coaches are like. Then they might decide to stay. The best pending UFAs have all the cards. Most of them might as well test the market and see what teams are interested and what they are willing to pay.

I don't think you there is a trade to be made for Staal, Sekera and so on where you get the player to agree to sign with Avs as a condition for the trade. I guess if you agree to overpay them, it might be work, since players tend to enjoy being overpaid.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Pending UFAs almost never extend their contracts immediately. They want to see what the city is like, what the team is like and what the coaches are like. Then they might decide to stay. The best pending UFAs have all the cards. Most of them might as well test the market and see what teams are interested and what they are willing to pay.

I don't think you there is a trade to be made for Staal, Sekera and so on where you get the player to agree to sign with Avs as a condition for the trade. I guess if you agree to overpay them, it might be work, since players tend to enjoy being overpaid.

This is why I'd 'hope' the player(s) we acquire could be resigned, but you can't base the price we pay off of them resigning either.

We also need to do this now, not at the trade deadline for it to even remotely be worth the price as well.

 

[Freudian]

It could happen of course. Teams were allowed to negotiate with Callahan's agent after Sather decided to move him. That's the one case where I can recall a pending UFA being willing to sign directly when traded.