So when will Selänne be clutch?

[JackSlater]

1) are you speaking of team success here? Or Selanne's performance as he was ppg player in those years when his team made playoffs

2) In my mind he had pretty good playoffs with his second stint with Anaheim. San Jose and Colorado years weren't so good, but injuries has something to say in these. Hell even proven playoff players like Yzerman had bad playoff years in pointwise i.e. 96-97

3) I'll give you that he was nothing exceptional in those playoffs, but still he was in the leading scorers of his team during those Ducks runs at age around 35. And He had one of the most important goals in Ducks history in their cup run.

1. I was referring to his individual performance. The sample size is very small so those it is quite hard to make any certain statements about his play, but Selanne was just under one ppg in those playoffs, although he was well above one ppg in those regular seasons. Dropping from his regular season pace does not necessarily mean that he was bad of course. Defensively I don't recall him being a noteworthy contributor. Part of this is likely explained by playing strong teams in the playoffs, but still I don't see any way to call the results anything other than mediocre fo a star player.

2. The difference is that Yzerman also had some exceptional playoffs, whle Selanne never did. Yes Selanne had a few years where he wa injured in the playoffs, and don't hold that against him all that much. The main problem is that he did not impress even when he was healthy and on a strong team with Anaheim post lockout.

3. This one has already been handled. Selanne wasn't bad, but he wasn't exceptional either.

 

[Big Phil]

I think your comments are probably what the OP is going after.

The Dionne comments sum it up neatly you don't seem to care about the context and difference in the teams that Dionne and Lafleur played for like it didn't have any bearing on how their careers turned out which is just plain nonsense.

Sure every players record needs to stand on it's own but many people here in the History section do sugarcoat certain players in terms of playoff accomplishments, or peak or their teams success in getting a Cup.

In terms or overall production and what Selanne did in the NHL, both regular season and playoffs and his international and Finnish career and the context he did it in, ie. injuries, teams he played for and the time he played in it is very understandable why the OP is upset of Sellanne's being outside of the top 100. the main argument for leaving Sellanne out is his lack of "clutchness" which obscures us from what a great player he really is.

No he is not one of the alltime playoff great but he is an all time great and deserves to be in the top 100 easily IMO.

For starters, I know he is an all-time great. I don't deny that at all. He could easily be in the top 100 and I am not one of those people hell bent on keeping him out. However, even HHOFers have warts on their careers. While you can't lay all the blame on Selanne for his playoff woes you certainly can't reward him either. In the same way you can't reward Dionne for NOT being a Montreal Canadien and penalize Lafleur for being one. Lafleur was focused on during the dynasty years as well but we all know how that turned out. Let's not assume it's an easy task to have Don Marcotte shadow you either.

Dionne did alright on great teams as well. The 1976 and 1981 Canada Cup teams he had 11 points in 13 games. But he also didn't set the world on fire. Other players did better than him in those tournaments.

Selanne to his credit has a Sundin-esque international resume. He played well for his country. It almost makes you forgive him for his playoff woes. I've said it before, there are plenty of great players who were almost spoonfed potential success and floundered. Joe Thornton, Heatley, Nabokov even Spezza was on some great Ottawa teams. These are examples, so let's not kid ourselves, it isn't easy to win a Cup even when you are a co-favourite. Bobby Clarke gets criticized around here a bit for not having the playoff numbers you'd want to see from a top 25ish player. This is Bobby Clarke of all people. So I think Selanne can get some criticism himself.

 

[jepjepjoo]

Anybody that can score as many game winning goals as Matt D'Agostini has my vote

Game winning goals don't really have a meaning since you can score a game winning goal when the game is 4-1(if the game ends 5-4). It's the situation when the goals are scored that matters. If you care about GWG's though, Selanne is 5th all time with 102.

 

[Stephen]

Obviously because of many things Selänne doesn't have the playoff credentials some might look for. But how is this season and few other seasons playoff run stretches less impressive? Does clutch only happen in PO OT? Maybe scoring goals to get the fracking team to the playoffs doesnt.

You guys,,,most of the HoH... you still view him lowly bcs the SJ seasons and the Ava season get into your eyes. Well, getting a ****** team into playoffs is much stronger showing than whatever you do in the playoffs themselves.

Hence I call Teemu Selänne best Finnish player of all time (I know the Kurri arguments, won't fly, he was a liability half his career). I also call him top 70 all time. Higher than Bure, Crosby, Ovy, Fedorov, Malkin, Modano, etc.
If you guys dont respect a nearly 41 year old guy doing this, then you can drop GH from your big 4.
Basically I'm very sad abd disappointed at all the hate Selänne gets on the HoH boards. You mention flareouts like Forsberg as better than him? *snort* RESPECT the 41 year old!

ps. All of this goes to pro Lidstöm as well, respect the old dudes!

I have no idea what you're talking about. Ever since Selanne had his renaissance in 2006 and won a cup in 2007, I think he's acknowledged as the great that he is pretty much universally. Every year he plays is just icing on the cake...

Not sure why you'd compare him to Bure, Crosby, Ovy, Fedorov, Malkin and Modano, who have all had very different careers and stand for different things...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Selanne is way to old to have enough time do enough in the playoffs to be called clutch. He is on his way to shedding the choker label though.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Playoff stats are probably the most overrated aspect here. Some people here would have the 3rd line left wing of a dynasty in the Hall but then think Thornton still needs a Cup to be in the Hall.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Playoff stats are probably the most overrated aspect here. Some people here would have the 3rd line left wing of a dynasty in the Hall but then think Thornton still needs a Cup to be in the Hall.

Like who?

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Like who?

It's hyperbole to make a point. I do think it's a safe bet that if you do a Thornton thread you'll get people who don't think he should be in the Hall based on what he has done as of now. With regards to the 3rd left wing, it's an exaggeration but I know there's a few Tonelli fans.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

I think you're confusing this place with the actual hall of fame.

 

[jax00]

The guy who scored the most clutch goal ever in Ducks history?

 

[Merya]

Selänne was the top goal scorer during his Sharks years, even with one leg. Dunno if you can call those really off years when noone else in the team scored more goals. And they had some rather good players besides Selänne.
Playoffrun goals, like this year, are just as important than actual playoff goals. Hence theres is some "clutch".
Aaaand well, you can't forget the guy is the all time pointleader in Olympics. Even more impressive that these were best vs best Olympics.

Nice responses everyone, thanks for that.

 

[Big Phil]

It's hyperbole to make a point. I do think it's a safe bet that if you do a Thornton thread you'll get people who don't think he should be in the Hall based on what he has done as of now. With regards to the 3rd left wing, it's an exaggeration but I know there's a few Tonelli fans.

Well, Thornton will be in the HHOF but his playoff record (so far) is woeful in comparison to what he COULD be doing. This is a knock any hockey expert will have on him and rightly so. As for Tonelli, well, there is a recent thread on his HHOF chances and when push comes to shove there is no denying that he was an integral part of a dynasty by scoring some important goals. You'll get people on here thinking Tonelli is a notable omission

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't see how you can keep Selanne out of the top 70 at this point.

And with regards to the play-offs, he scored the OT winner on the Wings in Game 5 in 2007 if I remember correctly. That goal really broke the Wings' back.

You really can't see 70 players in the history of the game being better than Selanne?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I just redid my top 120 list and have Selanne 88th. I realize nobody asked.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I just redid my top 120 list and have Selanne 88th. I realize nobody asked.

That sounds good to me.

Where did you have Scott (Head Hunter) Stevens?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That sounds good to me.

Where did you have Scott (Head Hunter) Stevens?

I probably shouldn't answer because i don't want to derail the thread, but...

57th, right between Tim Horton and Earl Seibert.

 

[seventieslord]

I just redid my top 120 list and have Selanne 88th. I realize nobody asked.

nice, and I got him 134th in the ATD.

 

[sr edler]

you finnish guys are too susceptible to criticism when it comes to selänne - it's like someone criticizes your child

he wasn't awful in the playoffs - he was good - but he wasn't even close to guys like fedorov and forsberg

even a guy like bure has a clear playoff edge on him as for ppg

 

[RECsGuy*]

That sounds good to me.

Where did you have Scott (Head Hunter) Stevens?

Where is this list located? And are there more lists from other posters? If so, where? Thanks.

BTW, when the **** is the next HOH Top 100 going to be made?

 

[Merya]

Poor old pappy, 41 soon, 2 games, 2 goals. Powerplay specialist, hell yeah. Any team contending for the cup would give their 1st pick to have Teemu in their PP. Its a beauty to watch him float unnoticed into a perfect scoring position. MAN! He doesn't just have hockey sense, he has stealth!

 

[arrbez]

It blows my mind that Selanne is still as good as he is, even if he's more of a PP guy now.

And am I right in thinking that when (if?) he retires, the Jofa era will die with him?

 

[Merya]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Ever since Selanne had his renaissance in 2006 and won a cup in 2007, I think he's acknowledged as the great that he is pretty much universally. Every year he plays is just icing on the cake...

Not sure why you'd compare him to Bure, Crosby, Ovy, Fedorov, Malkin and Modano, who have all had very different careers and stand for different things...

Actually Selänne started to rise up here in HoH only after couple people and soon after me started to argue the case. Often it is the case for players buried in history. But in this case it is the case for a player buried in flashy current seasons. It's like saying Adam Oates was a crappy playmaker cause he didn't get as much assists as Gretzky. Selänne, when taking his whole career, is one of the best scorers hockey has ever had. You can add lots of names to that list of could'vebeens or would'vebeens or flareouts.

But basically my job is done since I think many of the better posters in HoH now actually rate Selänne in their top 100. I think he should be in the bottom end of top 70 but well. (raise him couple notches for being such a PR man too)

He is clearly one of the best Europeans in NHL. Along Hasek, Lidström and Jagr, he makes the top 5 easily. Forsberg fans can go suck their spleen..

ps. Like the regulars know, I almost always take longevity over flash, and 10 years is minimum for me except for one guy whose name sounds like bore.

 

[sr edler]

playoffs ppg

peter forsberg 151 64 107 171 - 1.13
joe sakic 172 84 104 188 - 1.09
pavel bure 64 35 35 70 - 1.09
eric lindros 53 24 33 57 - 1.07
sergei fedorov 183 52 124 176 - 0.96
steve yzerman 196 70 115 185 - 0.94
mats sundin 91 38 44 82 - 0.90
mike modano 174 58 87 145 - 0.83
teemu selänne 105 35 37 72 - 0.68

 

[JackSlater]

Actually Selänne started to rise up here in HoH only after couple people and soon after me started to argue the case. Often it is the case for players buried in history. But in this case it is the case for a player buried in flashy current seasons. It's like saying Adam Oates was a crappy playmaker cause he didn't get as much assists as Gretzky. Selänne, when taking his whole career, is one of the best scorers hockey has ever had. You can add lots of names to that list of could'vebeens or would'vebeens or flareouts.

But basically my job is done since I think many of the better posters in HoH now actually rate Selänne in their top 100. I think he should be in the bottom end of top 70 but well. (raise him couple notches for being such a PR man too)

He is clearly one of the best Europeans in NHL. Along Hasek, Lidström and Jagr, he makes the top 5 easily. Forsberg fans can go suck their spleen..

ps. Like the regulars know, I almost always take longevity over flash, and 10 years is minimum for me except for one guy whose name sounds like bore.

There is some big time overrating of Selanne going on in this post. As far as longevity goes, I don't see Selanne as a guy with overly impressive longevity. In the sense that he has played exceptionally well at an advanced age for a hockey player he has very impressive longevity, but when you account for the years during his career when he looked washed up it takes away from his longevity, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Merya]

playoffs ppg

peter forsberg 151 64 107 171 - 1.13

708 249 636 885 +238 690

Over 13 seasons (well technically 14 but 2011 doesn count). Yeah thanks, I'll take the player who was actually able to play. Take off the Sharks years and the Colorado year, and Selänne stats get really crazy. Still even in his Sharks years he scored at similar level to Forsbergs peak. And Forsberg never touched the 2-3 peak years Selänne had, regardless of how much of a stiffy many people have for him and his could'vebeens.
You think maybe if Selänne in his prime actually played for a team that had more than one or two offensive threats, he could've had much better playoff numbers?
Foppa, Lindros and other could've been careers are given tremendously too much weight here. Same for Crosby, Ovy could be future projections.
Theres exactly one player in modern/semi-modern hockey that gets past the no-longevity bar for me, and thats Orr.