So when will Selänne be clutch?

[sr edler]

selänne was third in gpg in 92-93 - behind lemieux and mogilny

in ppg he was behind mogilny again and also behind pierre turgeon - so i guess with that logic you can say turgeon was the better player of the two? you know ...

turgeon
selänne
forsberg

one reason selänne scored 16 more goals than bure that season was that winnipeg was a very front loaded team with no depth and he was played heavily on the first line and on the pp while vancouver played two lines who could score

 

[quoipourquoi]

I don't know what we are arguing here.

Whether he's an habitual choker in clutch situations and a good regular season points compiler OR his leg injuries unfairly skew his statistics in a three season period to hide what has become one of the greatest careers in terms of longevity - one that includes clutch performances in Winnipeg, Anaheim, and Finland.

 

[JackSlater]

choker? give me a ****ing break... no one with a Cup can be called a playoff choker.

As it stands right now, Selanne has 4 goals in 3 games, and leads the NHL right now

and while we're at it, JackSlater? who's had a more impressive rookie season than Selanne? Gretzky?

last time I checked Gretzky score 43 goals, 61 points, for 104 points... impressive as hell for a 17 year old in the WHA... but nowhere near close to 76 goals, 56 assists, for 132 points in the NHL.

Well Seanconn? yes Gretzky had a more impressive rookie season, leading the NHL in scoring and winning the Hart trophy. If you are going to include Gretzky's WHA season as his rookie season, then I guess we should count Selanne's rookie season in Finland as his actual rookie season, which does not compare all that favourably with many all time greats. I'm sure you just accidentally neglected to consider this. Syl Apps may also have been more impressive, and multiple goaltenders likely had more impressive rookie seasons.

That brings me to anther point. Yes Selanne had a great year that year, but he does not get extra credit for having it during his NHL rookie season. Selanne was 23 years old that season and had played multiple years of professional hockey. It was a great year, but it hardly matters that it was his first in the NHL.

 

[jepjepjoo]

Well Seanconn? yes Gretzky had a more impressive rookie season, leading the NHL in scoring and winning the Hart trophy. If you are going to include Gretzky's WHA season as his rookie season, then I guess we should count Selanne's rookie season in Finland as his actual rookie season, which does not compare all that favourably with many all time greats. I'm sure you just accidentally neglected to consider this. Syl Apps may also have been more impressive, and multiple goaltenders likely had more impressive rookie seasons.

That brings me to anther point. Yes Selanne had a great year that year, but he does not get extra credit for having it during his NHL rookie season. Selanne was 23 years old that season and had played multiple years of professional hockey. It was a great year, but it hardly matters that it was his first in the NHL.

22 years old as the season began and 22 years old when the season ended. It was also the best goal scoring season of a 22 year old or younger player besides Gretzky(92 goals) so I don't know why we should belittle his accomplishment due to his age.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Whether he's an habitual choker in clutch situations and a good regular season points compiler OR his leg injuries unfairly skew his statistics in a three season period to hide what has become one of the greatest careers in terms of longevity - one that includes clutch performances in Winnipeg, Anaheim, and Finland.

I don't even know if that's what's argued at this point because the argument revolves around regular season stats.

With regards to "clutch", I don't think he'll have enough time to get elite status on that front but he's not a guy who could really be penalized for lack of it either.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Whether he's an habitual choker in clutch situations and a good regular season points compiler OR his leg injuries unfairly skew his statistics in a three season period to hide what has become one of the greatest careers in terms of longevity - one that includes clutch performances in Winnipeg, Anaheim, and Finland.

Did anyone here actually call Selanne a choker? I said be shed his perhaps unfair label as a choker, but is far from being considered "clutch" over the course of his career. Such a label is reserved for a select few.

 

[JackSlater]

22 years old as the season began and 22 years old when the season ended. It was also the best goal scoring season of a 22 year old or younger player besides Gretzky(92 goals) so I don't know why we should belittle his accomplishment due to his age.

My mistake that Selanne was 22. I am not belittling his accomplishments however, you will notice that in the post you quoted I said that it was a great year, right before you bolded. I am trying to look at the season realistically, and once again we have a Selanne fan attempting to do something other than that. Who cares that Selanne had the most goals in a season for a player 22 or younger other than Gretzky? That is largely influenced by the season that he played in. For instance, in Mike Bossy's 22 year old season he was the leading goal scorer in the NHL with 69, and the next highest had 59 goals. He didn't lead the league in goal because two other players missed games. I'm not saying that Bossy's season was necessarily more impressive since their circumstances were quite different, but clearly you can't ignore context just because it benefits Selanne.

 

[Brun0]

Jack what exactly are you trying to prove?

Btw don't know how Selanne is even compaired to forsberg

to me goalscoring is way more important than assists and forsberg hit 2 times 30...this is a no brainer

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Jack what exactly are you trying to prove?

Btw don't know how Selanne is even compaired to forsberg

to me goalscoring is way more important than assists and forsberg hit 2 times 30...this is a no brainer

Milan Hejduk > Peter Forsberg ?

 

[seventieslord]

as far as the OP goes, Selanne will never have a reputation for being "clutch" in the NHL. Whether just a statistical anomaly due to small sample sizes, poorly-timed injuries, or an actual lack of ability to turn it up in high-pressure situations, Selanne's postseason numbers are just not close to the regular season.

If he goes down in round 1 and gets 7 pts in 6 games, or goes 7-8-15 in 13 games and a round 2 exit, well, he helps his case, no doubt. I'd love to see that career PPG mark come up closer to where it should be. But that wouldn't make him clutch, it just makes him less of a "question mark".

And I'm the guy who has Selanne in the ATD right now.

 

[Brun0]

Milan Hejduk > Peter Forsberg ?

Thornton > Iginla?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Thorton>Iginla?

If Thornton had any form of success in the playoffs, then probably.

 

[Brun0]

If?????

What if Selanne's Acl-tendon wouldnt have gone in 2 pieces in his second season, what if his knee would have always been 100%, what if he wasnt cut by he's own skate, what if...?

 

[JackSlater]

Jack what exactly are you trying to prove?

I'm not trying to prove anything. People are making cases for Selanne that involve conveniently ignoring context or basic reasoning. Selanne was and is a great player, he doesn't need people to overstate his accomplishments.

 

[arrbez]

Jack what exactly are you trying to prove?

Btw don't know how Selanne is even compaired to forsberg

to me goalscoring is way more important than assists and forsberg hit 2 times 30...this is a no brainer

Forsberg actually has a better goals-per-game in the playoffs than Selanne, but anyhow. You may like to ignore assists, but you're one of the few. There's a reason that stat exists. It's no coincidence that the goal-scoring peaks of Hejduk and Gagne fall in line *perfectly* with the seasons they played with a healthy(ish) Peter Forsberg. Peter Forsberg was pretty obviously one of the best players in the league for most of his career when healthy. It's not a conspiracy.

Freddy Modin was a better goalscorer than Saku Koivu. Was he a better player?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If?????

What if Selanne's Acl-tendon wouldnt have gone in 2 pieces in his second season, what if his knee would have always been 100%, what if he wasnt cut by he's own skate, what if...?

What if you chilled out....

I think the playmaker Thornton has been a better regular season player than the goal scorer Iginla before now, but he's a historic playoff choker. Why are you getting so livid about playoffs? It's not like playoffs help Selanne in relation to Forsberg.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Did anyone here actually call Selanne a choker?

Nalyd Psycho once said that Selanne makes Joe Thornton look like Maurice Richard.


EDIT: As for the current topic at hand, am I the only one who believes that Peter Forsberg could have scored 50 in the regular season if he felt like it? I mean, it would have been to the detriment of the team (which I strongly believe is why he always looked pass first - he could create plays better than his linemates; Hejduk was better used as the proverbial Mario Lemieux's fire hydrant), but I honestly believe that he could have.

 

[arrbez]

Nalyd Psycho once said that Selanne makes Joe Thornton look like Maurice Richard.

Uh, Idunno about that...are you sure he didn't mean it the other way around?

Selanne wasn't a terrible playoff performer or anything. But he obviously hasn't done anything to warrant the "clutch" label that this thread is discussing. He just never really took the bull by the horns in the playoff like the all-time great playoff performers do.

Thornton, on the other hand, seems invisible even when he's getting points in the playoffs. He just never seems to have the edge you need in crunch time. I wish he did, since it'll be a shame to see such an amazing player have such a glaring hole in his legacy. But he's pointless so far again this year, and that window is closing on the Sharks to get something done.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Uh, Idunno about that...are you sure he didn't mean it the other way around?

Selanne wasn't a terrible playoff performer or anything. But he obviously hasn't done anything to warrant the "clutch" label that this thread is discussing. He just never really took the bull by the horns in the playoff like the all-time great playoff performers do.

Thornton, on the other hand, seems invisible even when he's getting points in the playoffs. He just never seems to have the edge you need in crunch time. I wish he did, since it'll be a shame to see such an amazing player have such a glaring hole in his legacy. But he's pointless so far again this year, and that window is closing on the Sharks to get something done.

Yeah.

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=22184195&postcount=13


If I get defensive about Selanne on HOH a lot, it's because this is what people think of him.

 

[sr edler]

am I the only one who believes that Peter Forsberg could have scored 50 in the regular season if he felt like it?

i don't think his shot was good enough to hit 50 - but i think 40 definitely if he made it his game to shoot a lot more - and if it was the 92-93 season probably 45, adam oates scored 45 goals that year

 

[Fredrik_71]

Marcel Dionne have 731 goals playing most of his career with the Kings. Should he be punished for not winning a cup? Was he not clutch because of it? Ray Bourque won a cup playing his last season for Denver in a Hail Mary attempt of at last being a winner.

Most cup winning teams have a two punch combo. Examples Forsberg/Sakic, Gretzky/Messier, Lemieaux/Jagr, Crosby/Malkin, etc. And sometimes that isn't enough because its damn hard winning a cup.

Sometimes you just luck out. People need to chill and understand that ultimately winning a cup is a team effort.

//Cheers

 

[RorschachWJK]

Marcel Dionne have 731 goals playing most of his career with the Kings. Should he be punished for not winning a cup? Was he not clutch because of it? Ray Bourque won a cup playing his last season for Denver in a Hail Mary attempt of at last being a winner.

Most cup winning teams have a two punch combo. Examples Forsberg/Sakic, Gretzky/Messier, Lemieaux/Jagr, Crosby/Malkin, etc. And sometimes that isn't enough because its damn hard winning a cup.

Sometimes you just luck out. People need to chill and understand that ultimately winning a cup is a team effort.

//Cheers

Voice of reason! *high fives Fredrik_71*

 

[sr edler]

this is not about if you won a cup or not won a cup - it's about how you played in the playoffs

selänne has a cup from 2007 - bure or lindros for example are without a cup but have clearly better playoffs stats - and none of them played on a heavy loaded team like the red wings or the avalanche

 

[Canadiens1958]

How a Player Plays / Played

this is not about if you won a cup or not won a cup - it's about how you played in the playoffs

selänne has a cup from 2007 - bure or lindros for example are without a cup but have clearly better playoffs stats - and none of them played on a heavy loaded team like the red wings or the avalanche

It is about how a player plays or played. In the context of goal scorers the question is rather simple. How do they play when they are not scoring?

Some remain effective - Ovechkin showed great progress in this regard the second half of the season just finished. Others do not - this would include greats like Dionne....... Lafleur.......... Joe Thornton ..... Jagr.

Key is whether a great scorer can make the transition to becoming a great all around hockey player?

Selanne never quite made the transition. Post knee problems he improved his overall game but he never became reliable defensively like other great wingers did.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Marcel Dionne have 731 goals playing most of his career with the Kings. Should he be punished for not winning a cup? Was he not clutch because of it? Ray Bourque won a cup playing his last season for Denver in a Hail Mary attempt of at last being a winner.

Most cup winning teams have a two punch combo. Examples Forsberg/Sakic, Gretzky/Messier, Lemieaux/Jagr, Crosby/Malkin, etc. And sometimes that isn't enough because its damn hard winning a cup.

Sometimes you just luck out. People need to chill and understand that ultimately winning a cup is a team effort.

//Cheers

Dionne is considered a choker because his personal performance went way down in the playoffs, to the point that he was known to be outscored by linemates in the playoffs.

It has nothing to donwith winning a Cup or not.