So when will Selänne be clutch?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Merya, Apr 9, 2011.

View Users: View Users
  1. Merya

    Merya Jokerit & Finland; anti-theist

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,904
    Likes Received:
    107
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Occupation:
    Psychosocialstudies
    Location:
    Helsinki
    Obviously because of many things Selänne doesn't have the playoff credentials some might look for. But how is this season and few other seasons playoff run stretches less impressive? Does clutch only happen in PO OT? Maybe scoring goals to get the fracking team to the playoffs doesnt.

    You guys,,,most of the HoH... you still view him lowly bcs the SJ seasons and the Ava season get into your eyes. Well, getting a ****** team into playoffs is much stronger showing than whatever you do in the playoffs themselves.

    Hence I call Teemu Selänne best Finnish player of all time (I know the Kurri arguments, won't fly, he was a liability half his career). I also call him top 70 all time. Higher than Bure, Crosby, Ovy, Fedorov, Malkin, Modano, etc.
    If you guys dont respect a nearly 41 year old guy doing this, then you can drop GH from your big 4.
    Basically I'm very sad abd disappointed at all the hate Selänne gets on the HoH boards. You mention flareouts like Forsberg as better than him? *snort* RESPECT the 41 year old!

    ps. All of this goes to pro Lidstöm as well, respect the old dudes!
     
  2. revolverjgw

    revolverjgw Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
    Messages:
    8,483
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Nova Scotia
    I don't get what you're saying here
     
  3. JackSlater

    JackSlater Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    9,106
    Likes Received:
    1,294
    Trophy Points:
    109
    What are you asking, Colonel Tigh? Yes Selanne was good on this stretch run, and he hasn't always been in good situations in the playoffs, but he has underperformed once he has been in the playoffs. Even in his decent run in Anaheim when the team has had decent playoff success Selanne has not been exceptional by any stretch.

    His time with San Jose and Colorado was very underwhelming, it has to hurt his legacy somewhat. I agree that getting a crappy team into the playoffs would be more impressive than a few good playoff rounds, but other than his first year with the Jets and two seasons with the Ducks what crappy teams did Selanne play for that made the playoffs?

    Gordie Howe was great at 40, but he was also great for each of the previous 20 seasons as well. That is much more impressive than Selanne being great at 40 but for whatever reason not playing well in his early 30s. I also don't understand what this has to do with pro Lidstrom...
     
  4. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2003
    Messages:
    26,245
    Likes Received:
    449
    Trophy Points:
    229
    You can't sugarcoat Selanne's playoff credentials. They just aren't great in comparison to a guy who scored at the clip he has in the regular season.

    He has about 1350 points and 637 goals well above a point per game. In the postseason he has 72 points in 105 games. Yes he did redeem himself with a couple of pretty good post lockout playoff runs but he just won't be that player - even with a Cup - that will be revered as a "clutch" playoff performer. A lead pipe cinch for the Hall of Fame yes, but in comparison his playoff resume isn't what it should be.
     
  5. Jussi

    Jussi Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2002
    Messages:
    62,494
    Likes Received:
    1,045
    Trophy Points:
    214
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The List Of Jericho
    Selänne is a player where you HAVE TO look at the teams he played in. Jets and Ducks of the 90's were anything a but teams built for playoff success. His time with Sharks and Avs were during the time his knee was mostly busted.
     
  6. Dennis Bonvie

    Dennis Bonvie Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    13,797
    Likes Received:
    840
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Unknown
    Location:
    Connecticut
    I think you overrate Selanne in comparison to the players you've mentioned.

    But I'm glad there has been a lot of discussion about him lately. When I voted for the top 100 I did not include Teemu. Upon further review, I'm pretty sure he would be included in my top 100 if I were ever given a chance to vote again.
     
  7. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2003
    Messages:
    26,245
    Likes Received:
    449
    Trophy Points:
    229
    But you still can't give him any marks or credit for his playoff contributions. He didn't carry a team anywhere, even with Paul Kariya and that's another player who gets flack in the postseason around here. Teemu to his credit made up for it a bit in his older years. In a way he is similar to Marcel Dionne's postseason career when you look at it pre-lockout. Selanne, like Dionne was a supremely offensively talented player on a team that wasn't winning the Cup anyway but Dionne's playoff PPG suffered as well. Needless to say Dionne could have done more individually just like Selanne. You can say "Well IF Dionne was on Montreal..........." but I don't care for that statement at all. He wasn't, he was a King. Selanne was a Duck/Shark/Av and never played inspiring hockey in the postseason. You can either get into "what ifs" which are irrelevant, or you can look at the body of work. I prefer the latter. It wasn't all that impressive, it's a knock on him, that's all.
     
  8. Dennis Bonvie

    Dennis Bonvie Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    13,797
    Likes Received:
    840
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Unknown
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Especially in Dionne's case, I look at it as a knock on his teams. Playing every year against a team that's 30+ points higher in the standings and knowing all they have to do to win is shutdown the top line makes for a tough row to hoe.
     
  9. JackSlater

    JackSlater Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    9,106
    Likes Received:
    1,294
    Trophy Points:
    109
    It's not just the weak teams Selanne played for. Selanne's mediocre playoffs with the Jets and then Ducks during his initial time with them are somewhat understandable since the teams were weak. The real problem is that Selanne hasn't been all that good even when on strong teams in the playoffs. With a good San Jose team and then during his second stint with Anaheim, Selanne has not been an exceptional player by any stretch. That is his main problem when it comes to playoffs, and it has nothing to do with his teams in the 90s.
     
  10. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    17,552
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    I think your comments are probably what the OP is going after.

    The Dionne comments sum it up neatly you don't seem to care about the context and difference in the teams that Dionne and Lafleur played for like it didn't have any bearing on how their careers turned out which is just plain nonsense.

    Sure every players record needs to stand on it's own but many people here in the History section do sugarcoat certain players in terms of playoff accomplishments, or peak or their teams success in getting a Cup.

    In terms or overall production and what Selanne did in the NHL, both regular season and playoffs and his international and Finnish career and the context he did it in, ie. injuries, teams he played for and the time he played in it is very understandable why the OP is upset of Sellanne's being outside of the top 100. the main argument for leaving Sellanne out is his lack of "clutchness" which obscures us from what a great player he really is.

    No he is not one of the alltime playoff great but he is an all time great and deserves to be in the top 100 easily IMO.
     
  11. FofH

    FofH Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2006
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    1) are you speaking of team success here? Or Selanne's performance as he was ppg player in those years when his team made playoffs

    2) In my mind he had pretty good playoffs with his second stint with Anaheim. San Jose and Colorado years weren't so good, but injuries has something to say in these. Hell even proven playoff players like Yzerman had bad playoff years in pointwise i.e. 96-97

    3) I'll give you that he was nothing exceptional in those playoffs, but still he was in the leading scorers of his team during those Ducks runs at age around 35. And He had one of the most important goals in Ducks history in their cup run.
     
  12. quoipourquoi

    quoipourquoi Goaltender

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    8,044
    Likes Received:
    1,352
    Trophy Points:
    119
    Location:
    Hockeytown, MI
    There's always going to be a knock against him for 2000-2004; it's just to what extent does the individual hold his injury years against him. He could light up the playoffs as a low seed this year, but it isn't going to make him a better player from 2000-2004.

    My answer is that Selanne, when healthy, has always been clutch, and that at 40-years-old, he has finally responded to the great What If? question hovering over his career with a resounding 30-80.
     
  13. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    13,286
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Location:
    Toronto
    Right, and what does it say when the guy who comes 3rd in the league in goals in the regular season only scores 5 in 4 victorious playoff rounds? That's tied with Rob Niedermayer, and fewer than Travis Moen, Andy McDonald, and very young versions of Perry and Getzlaf. He was by far their best offensive player in the regular season, but he didn't carry that into the playoffs.

    He's had some good playoff runs, but is that enough to make a guy "clutch"? Would you look at Teemu Selanne and say to yourself: "that's one of the best playoff performers I've ever seen"?

    I don't think anyone (reasonable) expects any single player to carry a mediocre team deep into the playoffs. But I think most people expect a player to perform at a similar level in the playoffs as he does in the regular season. That means that if he's one of the top scorers in the NHL, he should play like that in the playoffs, regardless of whether his team advances or not.
     
  14. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    17,552
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    To answer your question, it's a simple no, but is that enough to keep him out of the top 100 really?
     
  15. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    13,286
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Location:
    Toronto
    Who said anything about that?
     
  16. quoipourquoi

    quoipourquoi Goaltender

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    8,044
    Likes Received:
    1,352
    Trophy Points:
    119
    Location:
    Hockeytown, MI
    Because he focused on playmaking?

    You must have really hated Wayne Gretzky's 1987 Playoffs...
     
  17. FofH

    FofH Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2006
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    As I said he wasn't exceptional in those playoffs, but he still was top scorers pointwise in their cup run. There is more than goals in Selanne's play. And I did not mention anything about being clutch. And no Selanne is not one of the best playoff performers in the nhl, but i think that Selanne's playoff performance is not that bad as people make it to be....

    (It would be fun to continue this conversation but unfortunately I have to leave from the computer....)
     
  18. TheMoreYouKnow

    TheMoreYouKnow Registered User

    Joined:
    May 3, 2007
    Messages:
    12,382
    Likes Received:
    668
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Location:
    Eire
    I don't see how you can keep Selanne out of the top 70 at this point.

    And with regards to the play-offs, he scored the OT winner on the Wings in Game 5 in 2007 if I remember correctly. That goal really broke the Wings' back.
     
  19. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    13,286
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Location:
    Toronto
    That would make sense if his playmaking actually increased compared to his regular season pace (it didn't). It's just heavily skewed that way because his goal production plummeted.

    I'm not here to rip on Selanne, but guys, that was hardly a legendary playoff performance. It was good, but it wasn't great. Where would you honestly rank him in terms of importance to the Ducks on that playoff run?

    When he leads the playoffs in scoring based on his assists alone, we can probably start comparing him to Gretzky 1987.
     
  20. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    17,552
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    It's part of the OP who said that he should be included in the top 70 and is often cited that his lack of clutch play and playoff success, or rather the lack of it, that keeps him out.
     
  21. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    13,286
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Location:
    Toronto
    Ah, my bad, I missed that. I guess I was confused because I hadn't commented on his overall ranking.
     
  22. jepjepjoo

    jepjepjoo Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    3,800
    Likes Received:
    326
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Under 30 years old(prime):

    1992-93 6gp 4g 2a 6pts
    1996-97 11gp 7g 3a 10pts (There's Paul Kariya & Teemu Selanne then there's Brian Bellows & Joe Sacco... Pretty easy to shut down)
    1998-99 4gp 2g 2a 4pts

    21 gp 13g 7a 20pts (51 goals per 82gp) (only Lemieux had higher gpg in the playoffs during this time period.)

    30-33 yo (The knee years)

    00-01 6gp 0g 2a 2pts (He played with a broken wrist and a broken thumb and had a minor knee surgery a month before the playoffs to remove a loose ligament)
    01-02 12gp 5g 3a 8pts (the knee + the defensive system of San Jose)
    03-04 10gp 0g 3a 3pts (The knee was so bad that he was thinking about ending his career. He played on the 3rd and 4th lines)

    28gp 5g 7a 12pts

    35-36 yo (The comeback)

    05-06 16gp 6g 8a 14pts (1st in pts)
    06-07 21gp 5g 10a 15pts (2nd in pts)

    37gp 11g 18a 29pts (most by any Duck during the 2 year period by 5 points)

    37-39 yo (Back from retirement)

    07-08 6gp 2g 2a 4pts (The whole team sucked. Getzlaf and Pronger had 5pts. Selanne played with Weight who had 1 assist)
    08-09 13gp 4g 2a 6pts (There's not much you can do if your linemates are Eric Christensen and Andrew Ebbett)

    19gp 6g 4a 10pts

    Selanne got to play 21 playoff games in his prime.
     
  23. quoipourquoi

    quoipourquoi Goaltender

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    8,044
    Likes Received:
    1,352
    Trophy Points:
    119
    Location:
    Hockeytown, MI
    But you can understand how it can seem like it when you don't mention that Andy McDonald's assists plummeted? Selanne was just 2 points behind Getzlaf for the team lead while being covered on the powerplay in every round - and Getzlaf was playing, I believe, 6 or so minutes more per game than he was in the regular season; it's not a big deal.

    No one said it was a legendary playoff, arrbez. In fact, your response was to someone who even said it was nothing exceptional, which it wasn't. They were, from top-to-bottom, an incredible team, so talking about the surprise production of the Ducks' third liners isn't going to get an argument from anyone.

    You think it was a good playoff run. I think it was a good playoff run.
     
  24. jepjepjoo

    jepjepjoo Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    3,800
    Likes Received:
    326
    Trophy Points:
    169
    This season:

    -Clinched the playoff spot for Anaheim with 2 goals in 2-1 victory over LA
    -Tied 2 games against Dallas & 2 games against Calgary with under 3 minutes to go. Ducks won every one of those 4 games in OT. Both teams were in the playoff race.
    -8 of his goals have been game tying goals
    -11 of his goals have been game leading goals
    -25 of his 31 goals were scored when the game was within one goal.

    Selanne for Hart?
     
  25. revolverjgw

    revolverjgw Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
    Messages:
    8,483
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Nova Scotia
    Anybody that can score as many game winning goals as Matt D'Agostini has my vote
     

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"