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Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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They're valuable for trying to "win" internet arguments when you have nothing else left to fall back on
No, they're good for improving your understanding of the game/teams/players/what's actually happening, and improving the accuracy of your positions, while limiting the insane biases that infect many of the positions around here.
Why do you assume people can't do this?
Because if they're human, they can't, especially as a casual fan with emotional investment, watching limited games. I assume people are human.
 

Cleetus

"snot"
Jan 2, 2012
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No, they're good for improving your understanding of the game, and improving the accuracy of your positions, while limiting the insane biases that infect many of the positions around here.

Because if they're human, they can't, especially as a casual fan with emotional investment, watching limited games.
how can you prove this, not all fans are casual, lots of posters here on this site are proving you and your mickey mouse stats wrong.... so again do not lump posters as casual fans, arrogance again.
 

Bomber0104

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Apr 8, 2007
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No, they're good for improving your understanding of the game, and improving the accuracy of your positions, while limiting the insane biases that infect many of the positions around here.

Maybe if you're totally new to the game and have no idea how to analyze a game with your own two eyes.

I can only imagine how junior and AAA scouts get by without the NHL.com's garbage data that they make into inaccurate models. It's an absolute miracle that McDavid and Matthews got noticed without knowing their expected goals. :(

Because if they're human, they can't, especially as a casual fan with emotional investment, watching limited games.

"Humans can't watch hockey properly" - Dekes For Days

I can't.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 

biotk

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Jan 3, 2017
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They're valuable for trying to "win" internet arguments when you have nothing else left to fall back on

That is all they are good for. They are worse than useless for helping understand any player. They rot people's brains. No one should take anyone seriously who relies on bad statistics that NHL teams don't take seriously.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
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No, they're good for improving your understanding of the game/teams/players/what's actually happening, and improving the accuracy of your positions, while limiting the insane biases that infect many of the positions around here.

Because if they're human, they can't, especially as a casual fan with emotional investment, watching limited games. I assume people are human.

In your case is seems more like out of all the hundreds of different stats available (which all have their limitations), you can cherry pick the ones that support your bias which is clear. According to you, Dubas shits gold nuggets and nothing he has done while GM of the Leafs is worth of criticism.
 

Bomber0104

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In your case is seems more like out of all the hundreds of different stats available (which all have their limitations), you can cherry pick the ones that support your bias which is clear. According to you, Dubas shits gold nuggets and nothing he has done while GM of the Leafs is worth of criticism.

Wonder what would motivate someone to post, think and push so aggressively, this line of thinking?

I mean, come on.

At this point let's call it for what it is.

This clearly isn't fandom.
 

Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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how can you prove this
Go do some research on how eyes can deceive. There's plenty, even specifically regarding sports.
lots of posters here on this site are proving you and your mickey mouse stats wrong...
Nobody here has proven anything wrong. They have just claimed things with no evidence while insulting me.
Maybe if you're totally new to the game and have no idea how to analyze a game with your own two eyes.
Nope. Everybody.
"Humans can't watch hockey properly"
They can watch it well enough to enjoy it and get general ideas from the portions they watch, as long as they don't willfully feed their bias. They cannot gain accurate evaluations of all teams and players in the league, based on their limited and biased viewing.
In your case is seems more like out of all the hundreds of different stats available (which all have their limitations), you can cherry pick the ones that support your bias which is clear.
I don't cherry pick anything. I use a wide range of the most accurate, relevant, and representative stats, and I support them, explain them, and use them consistently, regardless of what they say about the Leafs.
 

Dekes For Days

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Let's call spade a spade though. Dubas' process is basically leveraging the big market resources he has at his disposal to build a video game roster, expecting guys paid $10 million + will skate circles around the NHL peasantry and deliver glory we've never seen before in this sorry sorry hockey town.
Would you like some hyperbole with that hyperbole?
 
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Bomber0104

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Go do some research on how eyes can deceive. There's plenty, even specifically regarding sports.

Nobody here has proven anything wrong. They have just claimed things with no evidence while insulting me.

Nope. Everybody.

They can watch it well enough to enjoy it and get general ideas from the portions they watch, as long as they don't willfully feed their bias. They cannot gain accurate evaluations of all teams and players in the league, based on their limited and biased viewing.

I don't cherry pick anything. I use a wide range of the most accurate, relevant, and representative stats, and I support them, explain them, and use them consistently, regardless of what they say about the Leafs.

"Human beings don't know how to watch hockey" - Dekes For Days (a human being)

Hey man, speak for yourself! :laugh:
 

HolyCrap

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Oct 2, 2015
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how can you prove this, not all fans are casual, lots of posters here on this site are proving you and your mickey mouse stats wrong.... so again do not lump posters as casual fans, arrogance again.
I have no clue who you’re responding to as I have them on ignore. So I’m giving you a like every time time you respond to them. Hahaha.
 
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Gary Nylund

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I don't cherry pick anything. I use a wide range of the most accurate, relevant, and representative stats, and I support them, explain them, and use them consistently, regardless of what they say about the Leafs.

:laugh::laugh:

Even if you tried to be objective ( :rolleyes: ), there's still only so much stats can tell you and they're nowhere as informative as you seem to think. I refer you (again) to this quote about stats from an NHL GM:

"What's available in the public sphere, it would be like going to watch a game and turning the lights out for 50 seconds of every minute. You've got basically an 8-10 second look at what happens in the game.

You keep copy pasting your cherry picked stats here and then act as if you've proven something. It's laughable.
 

Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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"Human beings don't know how to watch hockey"
They know how to watch hockey. They don't know how to accurately evaluate and assess all things they see and don't see and all teams and players and everything about them all on their own based solely on limiting and biased viewings.
 

Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
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Burlington
They know how to watch hockey. They don't know how to accurately evaluate and assess all things they see and don't see and all teams and players and everything about them all on their own based solely on limiting and biased viewings.

"Human beings can't accurately evaluate a hockey game" - Dekes For Days

And once again I say, speak for yourself bro. Someone who could "accurately evaluate" a hockey game scouted Matthews in the desert once upon a time.

Your point can be thoroughly debunked on so many levels, examples, it's almost not even worthy of a response at this point.

You're out to lunch and it's kind of getting embarrassing continuing on with this.
 
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Dekes For Days

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Even if you tried to be objective, there's still only so much stats can tell you and they're nowhere as informative as you seem to think.
There's a lot that stats can tell you, and they can help you get a lot more information and more accurate information than relying solely on the eye test.
I refer you (again) to this quote about stats from an NHL GM:
And I will refer you to some of the rest of what he said, from the article you cherry-picked that partial quote from:
"Not to poo-poo what’s out there, but we invest significant money, time, personnel, people to come up with the data we come up with"
There’s no question the past decade brought an evolution of sorts to the way we think about and analyze NHL hockey. The rise of analytics and all the publicly available data has allowed anyone who wants to look at the game with a deeper understanding, beyond simple counting stats.
But the first stats he checks after every game aren’t your traditional ones either.
Treliving said he usually will re-watch a Flames game the morning after and that when he is able to do that armed with this “overall contribution number,” it helps remove some of the subjectivity you get watching live.
“You think Joe Smith had a great game or vice-versa, a lot of times you watch it the next day and he wasn’t quite as poor or wasn’t quite as good as you thought,” Treliving told Friedman. “When you know what the score was and the emotion’s removed from it you look at things in a completely different manner. As long as you’ve been in the game you try to be objective when you watch, but it’s hard.
There's also a valuable quote that has existed for centuries.

"Don't let perfect be the enemy of good".
 

biotk

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Jan 3, 2017
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Buffalo
"Human beings can't accurately evaluate a hockey game" - Dekes For Days

And once again I say, speak for yourself bro.

Someone who could "accurately evaluate" a hockey game scouted Matthews in the desert once upon a time.

You're out to lunch and it's kind of getting embarrassing continuing on with this.

Yup. And statistics are extremely easy to lie and mislead with - especially meaningless statistics like our publicly available advanced stats - and even more so for people with agendas.
 

Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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Someone who could "accurately evaluate" a hockey game scouted Matthews in the desert once upon a time.
Somebody who utilizes all of the tools available to him to get the most complete and accurate evaluation scouted Matthews in the desert once upon a time.
 

Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
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Somebody who utilizes all of the tools available to him scouted Matthews in the desert once upon a time.

Did he have the NHL.com's garbage data? No.
Did he have an "expected" goals model made with said garbage data? No.

Did he have eyes? Yes.
Did he use those eyes correctly? Yes.

And the game of hockey is better for it.

You're not even really trying anymore are you?
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
30,246
22,921
There's a lot that stats can tell you, and they can help you get a lot more information and more accurate information than relying solely on the eye test.

And I will refer you to some of the rest of what he said, from the article you cherry-picked that partial quote from:

There's also a valuable quote that has existed for centuries.

"Don't let perfect be the enemy of good".

Stats don't tell you nearly as much as you think they do.

It wasn't a partial quote, it was a complete sentence and nothing else in the article contradicts the quote.

You're living in denial.
 
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Cleetus

"snot"
Jan 2, 2012
20,156
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Yes, and he used them, in combination with and aided by the use of statistics and information gained through means others than simply watching.

Nobody said they were only using stats and computers, and nobody here is only using stats and computers.
but you said the eye test is no good, so which is it?
 
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Bomber0104

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Apr 8, 2007
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Yes, and he used them, in combination with and aided by the use of statistics and information gained through means others than simply watching.

He did not use useless models like the one's you commonly cite, scraped from garbage data from NHL.com's website.

He used his eyes to scout Matthews.

That's all you do with kids in the desert. You actually think someone was running some sort of "expected" goals model with a bunch of peewees? :laugh:

"Human beings can't accurately evaluate a hockey game" - Dekes For Days
 
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Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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but you said the eye test is no good, so which is it?
The eye test is flawed, and cannot be used exclusively to accurately evaluate all teams and players. That doesn't mean watching games is entirely useless. Not sure why some need to speak in such extremes.
He used his eyes to scout Matthews.
And all other tools available to him, including statistics and information he gained through the use of statistics.
"Human beings can't accurately evaluate a hockey game"
Stop misrepresenting what I said. They don't know how to accurately evaluate and assess all things they see and don't see and all teams and players and everything about them all on their own based solely on limiting and biased viewings.
 
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