So what now?

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Superstar

"Be water, my friend."
Jun 25, 2008
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the last time a team "sort of" finessed it way to a cup might be the Gretzky oilers

Messier, Anderson, Tikkanen, Lowe and Smith aren't one dimensional finesse players to name a few...they play with grit and hunger...Wayne is more gifted and has more passion for the sport than the entire Leafs roster...and you could almost create a Hall of Fame line-up from those rosters. Let's not compare this Leaf team to those Oilers dynasty teams.
 
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Stephen

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This excerpt is shocking! Even Dubas doesn't know how Marner needs to grow as a hockey player on the ice...wtf did he pay the guy so much money then?! I don't need him to tell us how Marner is a great person and does great work in the community...that doesn't win playoff hockey games.

Someone asked what sort of player he would like Mitch Marner to “become.”

“What kind of player do we want Mitch Marner to become?” Dubas said incredulously. For a second you did not catch the sarcasm, because Dubas does not do sarcasm.

“Just what he is now. I don’t get the criticism of Mitch Marner,” Dubas said. “Everything he does wrong, people jump all over him about.”
Dubas went on in this vein for a few seconds and then rounded back.

“I don’t know where this all started with the criticizing of Mitch Marner. For me, it’s one of the most idiotic things that I see done here.”

Marner scored zero goals in the Columbus series. He is paid as much as Columbus’s lockdown defensive pairing, Seth Jones and Zach Werenski, combined. But yeah, sure, what’s to criticize?

Can you imagine Scotty Bowman making a similar statement about Steve Yzerman in the early 90s?

"What do you mean, what do you want Stevie Y to "become." Are you an idiot, he scores 100 points every year and people love him in the community!"
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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the last time a team "sort of" finessed it way to a cup might be the Gretzky oilers

You'd be hard pressed to find the "pest grinder" the Oilers had in Linseman and Tikkanen, the power forwards like Mark Messier, Adam Graves, Joe Murphy, the defensive defensemen like Huddy, Lowe on Toronto.
 

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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No, I already showed you the quotes that contradicted your suggestion based on your cherry picking of one quote in the article, on the previous page. This was in response to your other claim that just being in the game for a while means you can exclusively use the eye test. That is false, as the Calgary GM clearly states. Even for somebody that has been in hockey for decades, and is currently in the NHL, he knows how much the eye test can warp what actually happens and how subjective it can be, so he makes sure to spend millions on creating statistics, and then utilizes those statistics constantly, making sure to re-watch when armed with the statistics and information, to get much more accurate observations and conclusions. Because in complete contradiction of your claim, just being around the game for a while isn't enough.

If you're going to distort what I said by only quoting parts of sentences, don't expect a response. If you're going to attribute statements to me that I've never made, don't expect a response.

You never answered my question - if the GM watches the game, then gets all the stats, why does he watch the game again?

I've never said stats aren't helpful so if you have them, of course you use them. All I said was that you if you knew the game well enough, then you could do a good job scouting without them. Of course that's a theoretical point, it's not practical to have a scout put in the required time but assuming you did do it, I believe it's possible.

No, he doesn't disagree with himself. You're just misrepresenting what he's saying. Again.

I quoted him directly. You're just obfuscating because what he said directly contradicts what you believe to be true.

Once again, this was not something that was a matter of opinion. It was a fact that I knew because I'm the one that did it. The only one demanding that their opinion is fact here is you.

Did what? Your habit of breaking posts up into so many pieces and not providing the context when replying makes the conversation hard to follow. Perhaps you're doing this intentionally not sure but I have no idea what you're talking about any more. I'm guessing this started when I said that you have a habit of passing off your opinions as facts which is something that a number of people have noted.

Oh, I know very well what love is. What I don't know is why you're following me around everywhere and endlessly replying to me if you "don't want to discuss anything with me". Your actions speak louder than words.

I post quite a bit here so naturally I respond to some of your posts, where does this delusional idea that I'm following you around come from? Maybe you should be happy someone's still responding to you as so many have given up trying to have an intelligent conversation with you. Or would you rather talk to yourself? I still have hope for you, I don't think you're a stupid person and you at times say things that have some value. If you were to acquire some humility, develop some respect for other people's opinions and admit you're wrong every now and then (and I hope you're not arrogant enough to think that you've never been wrong), you'd be just fine. If you show no signs of posting better I will put you on ignore eventually, perhaps the more people that do that the happier you are?

I'm pretty sure I never said that I "don't want to discuss anything" with you. Please show me where I said this or admit you're making things up. Take your time, I'll wait.

Please respond to these two simple questions in one separate post without a ton of other nonsense to clutter the issue, can you do that?

1)
If the GM watches the game, then gets all the stats, why do you think he watches the game again?

2)
Show me where I said that I "don't want to discuss anything" with you. And if you realize that I never said that, just admit you were wrong to say that I did.


This excerpt is shocking! Even Dubas doesn't know how Marner needs to grow as a hockey player on the ice...wtf did he pay the guy so much money then?! I don't need him to tell us how Marner is a great person and does great work in the community...that doesn't win playoff hockey games.

Someone asked what sort of player he would like Mitch Marner to “become.”

“What kind of player do we want Mitch Marner to become?” Dubas said incredulously. For a second you did not catch the sarcasm, because Dubas does not do sarcasm.

“Just what he is now. I don’t get the criticism of Mitch Marner,” Dubas said. “Everything he does wrong, people jump all over him about.”
Dubas went on in this vein for a few seconds and then rounded back.

“I don’t know where this all started with the criticizing of Mitch Marner. For me, it’s one of the most idiotic things that I see done here.”

Marner scored zero goals in the Columbus series. He is paid as much as Columbus’s lockdown defensive pairing, Seth Jones and Zach Werenski, combined. But yeah, sure, what’s to criticize?

I've always liked Dubas and I think he doesn't get a fair shake from some people here but I have to say, my opinion of him is starting do go downhill fast. This attitude from him is concerning to put it mildly, I don't even know what to say, I'm pretty much speechless. Maybe I'll just say that if these quotes are accurate, they're possibly the most idiotic things he's publicly said since becoming GM. They also suggest that he thinks he's a lot smarter then he really is, smarter than anyone is for that matter and if true, that's really bad news for Leaf fans. If I was in charge and this is all accurate, I'd consider firing him on the spot.
 

Leafsfan74

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Jul 2, 2018
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I can see the argument for shuffling a couple of lesser key guys, bringing in two depth players and hoping the structure improves, team learns to compete and win.

I can see the argument (one I subscribe to), to move a significant piece and use that money for one star D Man, tinker with the rest.

I cannot see small moves tinkering and hoping on faith alone, they will turn the corner. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice (or more times), shame on me.

Maybe it's just a "matter of time". It's probably not.
 

Nylander88

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Aug 13, 2016
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What a game between Calgary and Dallas. Headed to OT. Not hard to spot the diffences. Their top guys have "jam". Benn, Radulov, Pavelski, old man Perry on the third line lol, heck even Seguin I'd say has more "push back" than any of our big 4. Watching some of these other teams makes me wanna blow it up lol but I know that's just the booze talking right now. We do need to fill around the edges with guys like Anderson, Larsson, Gudas, Borowiecki etc.
 

NinjaKick

life as a leafs fan
Dec 5, 2018
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which advanced stats keep track of key factors in a hockey game like... momentum? or experience? or individual will power? or on ice positioning? or chemistry? or luck? or team strategy? or... and this is a big one... human emotion? etc... etc...

btw these are all rhetorical questions... players aren't robots and this isn't a video game...

imo, if anything the eye test is the best way to measure a game to get the full picture... where as the advanced stats are complimentary because they only give you a limited picture that is used out of context since they don't fully reflect on all of the aspects of the game.

As far as the question of what now?

I don't want the team to overreact... I keep the core of Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Muzzin, Rielly, and Anderson intact and I boost the supporting cast. How do we do that with our salary cap situation? I think that will come down to a smart trade or two by Dubas....
 
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Bomber0104

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which advanced stats keep track of key factors in a hockey game like... momentum? or experience? or individual will power? or on ice positioning? or chemistry? or luck? or team strategy? or... and this is a big one... human emotion? etc... etc...

btw these are all rhetorical questions... players aren't robots and this isn't a video game...

imo, if anything the eye test is the best way to measure a game to get the full picture... where as the advanced stats are complimentary because they only give you a limited picture that is used out of context since they don't fully reflect on all of the aspects of the game.

As far as the question of what now?

I don't want the team to overreact... I keep the core of Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Muzzin, Rielly, and Anderson intact and I boost the supporting cast. How do we do that with our salary cap situation? I think that will come down to a smart trade or two by Dubas....

Watching hockey and knowing what to look for is as big a skill as playing the game itself.

What's the saying again "4th liner's make the best coaches"?

There's a reason for that.
 
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Gary Nylund

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how many current leaf defenders would be healthy scratches on that team

Haha, good question. And good point!

which advanced stats keep track of key factors in a hockey game like... momentum? or experience? or individual will power? or on ice positioning? or chemistry? or luck? or team strategy? or... and this is a big one... human emotion? etc... etc...

btw these are all rhetorical questions... players aren't robots and this isn't a video game...

imo, if anything the eye test is the best way to measure a game to get the full picture... where as the advanced stats are complimentary because they only give you a limited picture that is used out of context since they don't fully reflect on all of the aspects of the game.

As far as the question of what now?

I don't want the team to overreact... I keep the core of Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Muzzin, Rielly, and Anderson intact and I boost the supporting cast. How do we do that with our salary cap situation? I think that will come down to a smart trade or two by Dubas....

Very well said, agree 100%.
 

Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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if the GM watches the game, then gets all the stats, why does he watch the game again?
Because as he says, watching the game without utilizing stats was fairly useless, and led him to incorrect conclusions, because you can't just rely solely on the eye test, no matter how long you've been in the game.
I've never said stats aren't helpful so if you have them, of course you use them.
Which is why I'm using them.
All I said was that you if you knew the game well enough, then you could do a good job scouting without them.
Calgary's GM, who has been in the game for decades, disagrees.
what he said directly contradicts what you believe to be true.
His position in that article does not contradict the things I've said, as I've shown.
Did what?
Provided explanation.
 

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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Because as he says, watching the game without utilizing stats was fairly useless, and led him to incorrect conclusions, because you can't just rely solely on the eye test, no matter how long you've been in the game.

Which is why I'm using them.

Calgary's GM, who has been in the game for decades, disagrees.

His position in that article does not contradict the things I've said, as I've shown.

Provided explanation.

He didn't say that all, what's with all the lies?

Why did you not answer this? If you can't back up your lies, at least have the decency to retract them.

2)
Show me where I said that I "don't want to discuss anything" with you. And if you realize that I never said that, just admit you were wrong to say that I did.
 

Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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which advanced stats keep track of key factors in a hockey game like... momentum? or experience? or individual will power? or on ice positioning? or chemistry? or luck? or team strategy? or... and this is a big one... human emotion? etc... etc...
These stats are measuring things that are happening in the game, which includes the results of many of these things. If they are actually having the impact you think, they would be reflected within the stats. Other than luck, which can be identified through other measures.
 
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Dekes For Days

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He didn't say that all
He did. He talked about how he'd think somebody had a good/bad game, but then when he re-watched with the help of his statistics, he'd see things in a very different way. He also talks about how certain types of players don't stand out as well in the eye test, even though they have good impacts. He mentions how there is a lot of subjectivity and emotion involved in the eye test, especially when not utilizing other tools. No matter how long you've been in the game.
Why did you not answer this?
See post #866.
 

NinjaKick

life as a leafs fan
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These stats are measuring things that are happening in the game
yes but they don't measure everything and they don't measure anything you can't get from the eye test... which is contrary to what you have said. hence why I said advanced stats are complimentary to the eye test... and hence why we have scouts
 
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Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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What a game between Calgary and Dallas. Headed to OT. Not hard to spot the diffences. Their top guys have "jam". Benn, Radulov, Pavelski, old man Perry on the third line lol, heck even Seguin I'd say has more "push back" than any of our big 4. Watching some of these other teams makes me wanna blow it up lol but I know that's just the booze talking right now. We do need to fill around the edges with guys like Anderson, Larsson, Gudas, Borowiecki etc.

I've strongly disliked Perry for most of his career but I've come to the conclusion that the Leafs need those kind of personalities to have that playoff jam, and would love to see them bring him in on a Spezza type deal next year. I think he's the kind of guy we needed over a person like Marleau over the past few years.
 

Dekes For Days

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they don't measure anything you can't get from the eye test...
I mean, that's not really true. There's a lot they measure that you can't get from the eye test, especially in terms of how we compare to other teams/players. They also measure without the inherent biases.
 

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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He did. He talked about how he'd think somebody had a good/bad game, but then when he re-watched with the help of his statistics, he'd see things in a very different way. He also talks about how certain types of players don't stand out as well in the eye test, even though they have good impacts. He mentions how there is a lot of subjectivity and emotion involved in the eye test, especially when not utilizing other tools. No matter how long you've been in the game.

You're twisting his words around to suit your agenda.

See post #866.

That was my post, not yours. Yes I quoted you but there's no answer there. Again, here is the question that you can't answer:

Show me where I said that I "don't want to discuss anything" with you. And if you realize that I never said that, just admit you were wrong to say that I did.

Here's the thing, I never said that, period. You made it up, and now you refuse to admit it. Why can't you admit you made a mistake here?
 

Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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You're twisting his words around to suit your agenda.
No, I'm not.
There’s no question the past decade brought an evolution of sorts to the way we think about and analyze NHL hockey. The rise of analytics and all the publicly available data has allowed anyone who wants to look at the game with a deeper understanding, beyond simple counting stats.
That’s the first stat Treliving says he looks at after a game and it helps him get a fuller understanding of what happened on the ice.
Treliving said he usually will re-watch a Flames game the morning after and that when he is able to do that armed with this “overall contribution number,” it helps remove some of the subjectivity you get watching live.
“you look at things in a completely different manner. As long as you’ve been in the game you try to be objective when you watch, but it’s hard.”
“You think Joe Smith had a great game or vice-versa, a lot of times you watch it the next day and he wasn’t quite as poor or wasn’t quite as good as you thought,” Treliving told Friedman.
“He’s a guy who on the surface may not overwhelm, but he touches a lot of parts of the game,” Treliving said
He’s a guy that jumps out to me right away as someone who maybe doesn’t overwhelm you with his counting stats, or when you watch the game, but when you break down the impact and helping you win, he has a significant impact.”
That was my post, not yours.
Yes, you asked where you said it. That's the post where you said it. Post #866.
 

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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Yes, you asked where you said it. That's the post where you said it. Post #866.

Below is post #866. Show me where I say that I don't want to discuss anything with you or admit you were mistaken.

Let's be honest here, you have a habit of stating your opinions. You act like you're some kind of dictator who gets to decide what is or isn't a fact and it's one of the main reasons that so many people don't want to discuss anything with you. Try a little humility for a change.
 

Dekes For Days

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Below is post #866. Show me where I say that I don't want to discuss anything with you or admit you were mistaken.
...are you serious? You literally say "people don't want to discuss anything with you". Are you people? If not, why are you speaking for other people in your inappropriate attacks against me?
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
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...are you serious? You literally say "people don't want to discuss anything with you". Are you people? If not, why are you speaking for other people in your inappropriate attacks against me?

I said many people, I didn't say all people and I didn't say I was among them. I also have no idea why you think that I don't want to discuss anything with you when I'm doing so on a fairly regular basis.

But back to the meat of the matter - since you can't show where I said that I "don't want to discuss anything" with you because I never said that, just admit you were wrong and we can move on. Be man enough to admit you made a mistake here and I'll happy to answer all your questions.
 
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