So what now?

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CantLoseWithMatthews

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Sep 28, 2015
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They've almost matched the Leafs' entire 5-on-5 production (5 games) in just 4 periods of play.

I know, I know, I'm sure Columbus's defence and goaltending just try harder against the Leafs.

Or luck or whatever other lame excuses we're going to constantly hear the entire off-season.

:laugh:
so what? They have two goals through 120 minutes, which is even worse than the Leafs did offensively
 
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ACC1224

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Crazy game. Really highlights how important Defense/ Goaltending is in the playoffs.
 
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Dekes For Days

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I recall posts where you stated that Andersen's poor goaltending was the reason for the lackluster season and a decline over previous years. Are you now claiming you never said that?
The regular season and playoffs is not the same thing.
You must be trolling now.
No, the NYR were the worst defensive team in the league this season, by far.
 

Dekes For Days

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I believe Columbus was in first place, well ahead of us, in man games lost
"Man games lost" is not a very good statistic. We had higher quality of player lost, and that doesn't even count the injuries that multiple players played through (Rielly, Tavares, Matthews, etc.).
I believe “dealing with it properly”, in terms of when injuries occur, is being able to bring up players from the AHL. It seems to me (granted, I could be wrong, and if I am I will be glad to admit it) there was at least one instance when we had an injury, but couldn’t call anyone up because we were so tight against the cap. (If anyone can remember that being the case, feel free to chime in).
We did bring up players from the AHL. I don't remember not having a full roster in any game.
In terms of Werenski’s goal, if you refer to it being due to dumb luck, the dumb luck occurred because Nylander didn’t recognize the situation in time to get back to cover him (or because he didn’t want to get hit by the puck), that’s one of those little things that can turn the tide in a game/series.
It's a huge stretch to blame Nylander for that goal.
In terms of the better team doesn’t always win, that’s true, but they sure as hell win more often than they lose.
Yes, they do, but not this time.
 

Big Muddy

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Dec 15, 2019
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The regular season and playoffs is not the same thing.

No, the NYR were the worst defensive team in the league this season, by far.
An obvious deflection - nice try. I wasn't talking about that part of the post. I was talking about Aho. Given your posting history, I'm not sure you watch much hockey, particularly non-Leaf games.
 

Shanwhatplan

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Mar 31, 2019
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I follow your train of thought, but I just think you've set the bar very high with finishing top-two in their division AND winning at least two rounds in the playoffs more often than not.

I looked at the most recent Stanley Cup champions pre-cup records as follows:

St. Louis won the Cup in 2018-19, finishing second in their division that year. Previously, they finished second and won two rounds in 2015-16, and haven't done that before or since 2009-10 when I began my search. In 2017-18 they finished fifth in their division and missed the playoffs. In 2016-17 they finished third and won the first round and lost in the second. From 2012-13 to 2014-15 they finished first or second and lost in the first round three straight years. Probably lots of gnashing of teeth, as they didn't come close to your true contender status.

Washington won the Cup in 2017-18, having finished first in their division. Prior to that, I don't think they had ever advanced beyond the second round of the playoffs -- and certainly not since 2009-10. No luck there. They weren't your true contenders either.

Pittsburgh won back-to-back Cups in 2015-16 and 2016-17, finishing second in their division each year. Prior to that, going back to 2009-10, they met your standard only once, in 2012-13 when they finished first in their division and lost in the third round - Conference Finals. In between that year and their Cup championships, in 2014-15 they finished fourth and lost in the first round; and in 2013-14 finished first and lost in the second round. Before that they finished first or second three years in a row, and lost in the second round once and the first round twice. Closer, but no cigar.

Chicago I think does come pretty close to meeting your definition of a true contender from their Cup championships from 2009-10 through their later Cup championships in 2012-13 and 2014-15. In between their last two Cups, they finished third and lost in the third round in 2013-14; and in 2010-11 and 2011-12 finished third or fourth in their division and lost both times in the first round. Their three Cup championships and one Conference Finals loss in six years definitely makes them a contender, but even at that the only seasons they actually met your very high criteria were their actual Cup championship years -- but three in six does it every time.

Now were getting more dated with LA, Boston, and I looked at Tampa even though they don't have a Cup within the past 10 years. None of them meet your standards.

Boston met the mark three times -- in 2018-19 they finished second in their division and lost in the Stanley Cup finals; in 2012-13 they finished second and lost in the Cup finals; and in 2010-11 they finished first and won the Stanley Cup. Very impressive, but in the five years from 2013-14 to 2017-18 they missed the playoffs twice, finished fourth twice, second once and first once; and lost in the first round once and the second round twice in the years they did make the playoffs. They have won two rounds three times in the past ten years, and don't meet your standards of a true contender.

I think you get the drift and there's no need to continue. Chicago comes the closest, and none others reach the bar.

I understand what you mean, but I think that what you meant is probably not exactly what you said.

I would also say that pretty much every team that wins the Stanley Cup has its' own tale of repeated disappointments before that, and it's not at all unusual for success to follow repeated failures.

If and when the Leafs win it will be no different for them.

Thank you for looking all of that up. I stand corrected, my standard is too high.
 

Dekes For Days

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An obvious deflection - nice try. I wasn't talking about that part of the post. I was talking about Aho. Given your posting history, I'm not sure you watch much hockey, particularly non-Leaf games.
Deflection from what? There's only one part of the post. A huge part of the reason Aho looked good in the playoff round against the NYR and got so many points is because the NYR are the single worst defensive team in the league this season by a significant margin. I watch plenty of hockey featuring many teams. Contribute to the discussion instead of just insulting others.
 

Big Muddy

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Deflection from what? There's only one part of the post. A huge part of the reason Aho looked good in the playoff round against the NYR and got so many points is because the NYR are the single worst defensive team in the league this season by a significant margin. I watch plenty of hockey featuring many teams. Contribute to the discussion instead of just insulting others.
If you were really watching lots of non-Leaf games, you'd realize Aho is a very good player and his success doesn't depend on playing a weak defensive team. You would have also therefore not made the post you did.
 

Shanwhatplan

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Mar 31, 2019
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"Man games lost" is not a very good statistic. We had higher quality of player lost, and that doesn't even count the injuries that multiple players played through (Rielly, Tavares, Matthews, etc.).

We did bring up players from the AHL. I don't remember not having a full roster in any game.

It's a huge stretch to blame Nylander for that goal.

Yes, they do, but not this time.

We do not have the depth that is necessary when injuries occur (look at what Carolina has done without Hamilton and Pesce). And was Columbus missing Jones for a period of time? Tampa Bay missing Stamkos and Hedman? Why are these, and other, teams not affected the way we were? And are you saying players on other teams don’t play through injuries? Seriously?

As for them not being able to bring up AHL players at some point this past season, I must be wrong about that.

I have a tendency to not say what I’m thinking. However, where does the blame go? Nylander did not go back so was it his fault? Was the winger not supposed to be engaged along the boards, so was it his fault? Should Keefe be blamed for putting Nylander in that position? Or is it a combination of all the above (which I believe I had mentioned earlier)?
 
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Shanwhatplan

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Removing the best president in decades doesn’t sound like a great idea to me

I was very pleased when we hired Shanahan. However, results matter. 3 straight 1st round exits as well as missing the playoffs/not getting past the “play-in round” this year. Defensive issues, signing Tavares AND giving the other three those high contracts causing us to be tight against the cap. Shanahan has to bear some of the blame.
 
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Dekes For Days

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If you were really watching lots of non-Leaf games, you'd realize Aho is a very good player and his success doesn't depend on playing a weak defensive team.
I never said Aho isn't a good player. That doesn't change the fact that my statements were true. He is not as good as Marner, and he was greatly helped in those 3 games, especially in scoring, by playing the worst defensive team by far this season.
 

Shanwhatplan

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Didn't he change roughly half the starting D from the 2018 opener to 2019? Aren't half our top 4 UFAs who aren't expected back?

And how has that worked out? Didn’t even qualify for the playoffs this year. Two years in a row where our point totals have decreased.
 

Durrr

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You know if this wasn't the same excuse for the past 5 times we lost in the first round I would believe you, but enough of this "coin flip, could've went either way" talk..

it was "Washington was too good" or "we always have to face Boston" and now we got CBJ and still couldn't pass a team in a playoffs.. it's clear now that we aren't a playoff type of team.. and the proof from the past 5 years Trumps any and all other excuses... Soft possession hockey doesn't get you through the playoffs.. teams will adjust and find ways to shut you down like all the other years with this team.. it's clear you need to mix the possession with gritty dirty area goals and consistently wear them down game after game to implement your strategy... This team has a bunch of rich kids playing soft hockey and rely on lesser players to carry the grit while they take the most ice time... Enough excuses already.. all of them have been done and over with.. even the "we don't give our players icetime and Babs plays the 4th line 2minutes left".. you literally had Matthews -tavares- Marner loaded on the top line for almost all of game 5 and still couldn't come up with a goal.

No more excuses.. change the Strat and play with actual grit and heart in the playoffs!! Do what you do in the regular season to stay healthy, but come playoffs, pull up your boot straps and finish your damn CHECKS.

This is the first time in those 4 years we played a team who wasn't far superior to us. You can say whatever you want but it doesn't change the fact that we played a team literally tied with us in the standings, took it to the final game and didn't get it done. The definition of a coin flip.

I'm not saying we don't need to improve, but if you want to fool yourself into thinking the Leafs were better then they were with a squad full of literal teenagers then that's your right, but I think we all know management isn't going to view it like that.

This series/season was 100% a failure, but let's not pretend this was a team of grizzled vets that have failed 4 seasons in a row. Our oldest drafted core forward literally turned 24 a few months ago, and Rielly is just 2 years older. Matthews is 22 and Marner is 23, adding Tavares and Muzzin to this team doesn't suddenly make everyone else 29 years old and ready to win.

Also, the only player who really looked soft to me was Marner. We definitively need some sandpaper depth players but otherwise the core is fine.
 
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Big Muddy

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Dec 15, 2019
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I never said Aho isn't a good player. That doesn't change the fact that my statements were true. He is not as good as Marner, and he was greatly helped in those 3 games, especially in scoring, by playing the worst defensive team by far this season.

:help: Marner is certainly not better in the playoffs.

2020 playoffs

Aho - 8 points, #2 overall
Marner - 4 points, #36 overall

Career playoffs

Aho - 20 points, in 2 years (and he's still playing)
Marner - 21 points, in 4 years (he's out of the playoffs ..... again .....)

I think some (cough) overrate our guys and underrate players on other teams. Best to remove the homer glasses.
 
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