So what now?

[rumman]

Didn't he change roughly half the starting D from the 2018 opener to 2019? Aren't half our top 4 UFAs who aren't expected back?

yup, too bad he made it infinitely worse...............

 

[Gallagbi]

yup, too bad he made it infinitely worse...............

I take Muzzin over Gards and Ceci over Z personally. Hainsey was a much better defensive D than Barrie and we missed him this playoff.

 

[Gary Nylund]

No, the stats are from a tiny sample, and the difference is one player playing against the worst defensive team in the league, and the other playing against the best defensive team in the league and a goaltender on an insane run. Those 3 games under wildly different conditions don't erase the much more significant and equal sample where Marner is clearly better than Aho. Playoff stats have never been very good for comparing players.

Please explain how Marner is clearly better than Aho. I haven't studied this in depth but I feel comfortable saying that while Marner used to be better this is no longer the case. Marner makes some nifty passes during the regular season sure but Aho's performance in the playoffs has been elite whereas Marner was mostly invisible this spring.

Not that the regular season should be ignored completely but playoffs are what really matters and in that regard, Aho has left Marner in his dust.

I've been a huge Marner fan and I hope he turns it around but his stock isn't as high as it used to be and today, I'd take Aho over Marner without thinking about it too hard.

All stats have their limitations but playoffs are much more important than the regular season so dismissing playoff stats as "never been very good for comparing players" seems pretty dumb.

It doesn't contradict my claim at all. You knew exactly what I meant, so you intentionally provided an example that didn't make sense with a sample size of 1.

So now you think you can read my mind. It just keeps getting better and better.

I could say the same thing - you don't like what my example shows so you're pretending you don't understand it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though and admit it's possible that you really don't understand, of course I can't be sure either way.

There is nothing else that suggests the playoffs starts now. There is one official statement. The one official statement says that the cup qualifiers were the playoffs. That's all that matters, no matter how much you complain about the NHL's official position.

There is lots actually and it's been shown to you, you just dismiss everything that you don't like as invalid. I think most people are on to you now though.

 

[rumman]

I take Muzzin over Gards and Ceci over Z personally. Hainsey was a much better defensive D than Barrie and we missed him this playoff.

when you consider what it costs to get Ceci over Zee, I'd keep Zee. Hainsey and Gards could have been retained for reasonable dollars and term. Acquiring Barrie was a tire fire; Muzzin trade was good short term, but lets wait and see how that 1st pick and Grundstrom turn out before we say that was a win. Dubas gets a F for attempting to fix the D with these players supplimented with AHL level help.

 

[Gallagbi]

when you consider what it costs to get Ceci over Zee, I'd keep Zee. Hainsey and Gards could have been retained for reasonable dollars and term. Acquiring Barrie was a tire fire; Muzzin trade was good short term, but lets wait and see how that 1st pick and Grundstrom turn out before we say that was a win. Dubas gets a F for attempting to fix the D with these players supplimented with AHL level help.

So do you like Muzzin more than Gards? What about Ceci v. Z and Hainsey v. Barrie?

I personally take our 3 this year, even if I was a Hainsey fan.

Not sure id want a bad Z for another 4 years. Holl also had a great year

 

[rumman]

So do you like Muzzin more than Gards? What about Ceci v. z and Hainsey v. Barrie?

I personally take our 3 this year, even if I was a Hainsey fan.

Not sure id want a bad Z for another 4 years. Holl also had a great year

considering Gards and Hainsey would only cost dollars I'd stay with them.

Rather hve Zee and the pick than Ceci.

Like I said, I'll wait and see before saying the Muzzin trade was a win or loss.

Obviously since the Leafs didn't even make the playoffs all these moves were the wrong moves.

Dubas gets a F for his attempt to fix the D....................

 

[Gallagbi]

considering Gards and Hainsey would only cost dollars I'd stay with them.

Rather hve Zee and the pick than Ceci.

Like I said, I'll wait and see before saying the Muzzin trade was a win or loss.

Obviously since the Leafs didn't even make the playoffs all these moves were the wrong moves.

Dubas gets a F for his attempt to fix the D....................

Gotcha, so you'd take the 2018 D with Gards, Z and Hainsey over Muzzin, Ceci, Barrie.

It's an interesting take, I wonder what your posts about that group was back then.

Looks like you may be confused about the Z trade btw, we acquired a pick in that deal.

 

[Gary Nylund]

considering Gards and Hainsey would only cost dollars I'd stay with them.

Rather hve Zee and the pick than Ceci.

Like I said, I'll wait and see before saying the Muzzin trade was a win or loss.

Obviously since the Leafs didn't even make the playoffs all these moves were the wrong moves.

Dubas gets a F for his attempt to fix the D....................

I don't agree with this at all. I love the Muzzin trade, he's exactly what we needed and if he doesn't get hurt, maybe we're still alive today. Barrie was a disaster but not sure anyone could have predicted that would have went as badly as it did.

 

[rumman]

Gotcha, so you'd take the 2018 D with Gards, Z and Hainsey over Muzzin, Ceci, Barrie.

It's an interesting take, I wonder what your posts about that group was back then

look it up, I liked/like Hainsey, he's cheap for what he brings.

Zee was overpaid, but plenty of that found on the Leafs.

Gards had his warts, but wasn't the defensive antichrist he was made out to be.

Like I've stated 3 times in this conversation, none of said players cost you anything but dollars.......no assets, no picks. That is my point...............................

 

[Trapper]

I don't agree with this at all. I love the Muzzin trade, he's exactly what we needed and if he doesn't get hurt, maybe we're still alive today. Barrie was a disaster but not sure anyone could have predicted that would have went as badly as it did.

You couldn’t predict it though my concerns were using a quality asset for a 1 year gap who was reported to want 8 mil. Colorado gets a 2C at 4.5.
We were trending to have the same issue again.

 

[Big Muddy]

They were 25th, and GAA is not defense. It is defense and goaltending.

CA? Last.
FA? Last.
SA? 2nd last.
xGA? Last.
SCA? 3rd last.
HDCA? Last.

That's how.

You make me laugh. Goals against don't count???
Also you can't even get your stats correct. ( see above)
Were they bad defensively ; yes. Were they the worst in the league? No.
Why do you need to exaggerate and make false claims just to prove your point?

Expected goals are better than actual goals. LOL.

I loved the squirming & dancing around the playoff goal & point production comparison between Aho & Marner. Evidently, we don't want our players scoring goals/points in the playoffs. It's not important. LOL.

 

[Gallagbi]

look it up, I liked/like Hainsey, he's cheap for what he brings.

Zee was overpaid, but plenty of that found on the Leafs.

Gards had his warts, but wasn't the defensive antichrist he was made out to be.

Like I've stated 3 times in this conversation, none of said players cost you anything but dollars.......no assets, no picks. That is my point...............................

They're also more expensive and for longer terms on a team under cap pressure.

I have definitely noticed those goalposts shifting from it being an "infinitely worse" D-core to the assets used were too high

 

[Dekes For Days]

Last night's game was a perfect example of what I meant when I said blaming Andersen for losing isn't intelligent. Korpisalo played amazing but in the end, he let in one more goal then the other guy so by your logic, he failed because his job is to outplay the other goalie and that's just nutso.

Once again, a 1 game sample. Also, outplaying the other guy doesn't always mean winning the game, and you'd know that if you actually read instead of looking for a gotcha. Columbus got absolutely destroyed in that game. Tampa should have scored over 7 goals in that time. Korpisalo was the better goaltender. He did his job better than the other guy, and WAY better than what should be expected.

I think that you can't bring yourself to criticize Dubas even one little bit and therefore you take the stand that Andersen is the scapegoat here and everything else is fine

I criticize Dubas when it's deserved, and I have been a big supporter of Andersen until this year, when he deserves the criticism he's getting.

1) Our skaters outplayed theirs
2) Andersen was outplayed by their goalie

Both of those statements are factually true.

Their goalie played well, no doubt about it. But maybe if our zillion dollar offence does their job better than they did, their goalie doesn't look as good.

Our offense did do their job. They created chances and controlled the play. Sometimes you can't beat a hot goaltender no matter what you do, especially on horrible ice. Thought that might have occurred to you after watching the Tampa game.

Please explain how Marner is clearly better than Aho.

Not sure why we're even talking about Aho in the first place, and you're just going to ignore and twist anything I say like usual, but:

Past 2 years:

ES P/60 (No EN)

Marner: 2.72
Aho: 2.16

ES P1/60 (No EN)

Marner: 2.28
Aho: 1.66

PP P/60

Marner: 6.71
Aho: 5.59

PP P1/60

Marner: 4.18
Aho: 3.41

Queue the deflections like "linemates" or "competition" or "defense", without even doing any research to understand that those excuses don't help Aho like you think, not that it would ever be able to counter that significant gap.

Aho's performance in the playoffs has been elite whereas Marner was mostly invisible this spring.

Which is the problem with ignoring massive samples to look at 3 games against wildly different opponent quality, where one plays against the worst defensive team and a struggling goalie, shooting unsustainably well, and the other plays against the best defensive team and an insanely hot goalie, shooting unsustainably bad.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though and admit it's possible that you really don't understand

I understand your useless example perfectly well.

you just dismiss everything that you don't like as invalid.

The only one dismissing something valid here is you. The NHL decides. The NHL says it's the playoffs.

Also buddy they were called the Cup qualifiers. Not the Stanley Cup playoffs.

They were called both, because they were both.

if you make the playoffs you’re not in the draft lottery.

Except for this year.

I guess you must think Montreal made the playoffs

Yes, they did.

What an accomplishment.

The level of "accomplishment" is irrelevant. That's something you can decide on your own. What you can't decide on your own is whether something is the playoffs or not. The NHL has decided that it's the playoffs.

Expected goals are better than actual goals.

In terms of measuring specifically defense? Yes.

I also provided tons of other defensive statistics which NY is also at the bottom in.

 

[rumman]

I don't agree with this at all. I love the Muzzin trade, he's exactly what we needed and if he doesn't get hurt, maybe we're still alive today. Barrie was a disaster but not sure anyone could have predicted that would have went as badly as it did.

Muzzin's a good player and is exactly the type of D man the Leafs needed, however he's getting long in the tooth and might not age well? I think time will tell whether that trade was a win or loss, because he wasn't the difference in getting beyond the first round. Having said that him getting hurt was a serious problem when your D is Swiss cheese thin.

If next season is scraped, Muzz will be that much older. Acquiring vet D men is a double edged sword imo. Sadly in many instances they're pylons waiting to happen................

 

[rumman]

They're also more expensive and for longer terms on a team under cap pressure.

I have definitely noticed those goalposts shifting from it being an "infinitely worse" D-core to the assets used were too high

Dubas decided to throw away picks to get rid of cap issues, there's always more than one way to skin a cat. I know Lou wouldn't have went that route...............

 

[Gallagbi]

Dubas decided to throw away picks to get rid of cap issues, there's always more than one way to skin a cat. I know Lou wouldn't have went that route...............

Yup, Dubas decided to use picks to create space and it didn't work out.

Curious though, how do you know Lou wouldn't have? He was literally the first GM to trade a pick for cap space under the cap.he introduced the concept. It's actually the only capable for the Marleau trade

And still, I gotta say I'm confused at why a poster who says the D needed to improve would want to be locked in to a top 4 of

Mo - Hainsey
Gards - Z

For the next year (at least) when they clearly weren't good enough

 

[Dekes For Days]

Evidently, we don't want our players scoring goals/points in the playoffs. It's not important.

It's important. Comparing players based on tiny samples against wildly different opponent quality is not representative of those players.

 

[rumman]

Yup, Dubas decided to use picks to create space and it didn't work out.

Curious though, how do you know Lou wouldn't have? He was literally the first GM to trade a pick for cap space under the cap.he introduced the concept. It's actually the only capable for the Marleau trade

And still, I gotta say I'm confused at why a poster who says the D needed to improve would want to be locked in to a top 4 of

Mo - Hainsey
Gards - Z

For the next year (at least) when they clearly weren't good enough

ya saying "I know" was a mistake after all, I'm not a mind reader. I get a sense the Lou wouldn't of dealt with the problem the way Dubas did.

 

[rumman]

And still, I gotta say I'm confused at why a poster who says the D needed to improve would want to be locked in to a top 4 of

Hopefully Gards and Hainsey could have been resigned to reasonable term/dollars. deal with the problem down the road. In hindsight wouldn't of been the worse idea.

 

[Trapper]

ya saying "I know" was a mistake after all, I'm not a mind reader. I get a sense the Lou wouldn't of dealt with the problem the way Dubas did.

We don’t know what Lou would have done.
He was replaced (not his choice) before any of that happened.
The 3 weren’t signed.
Tavares wasn’t here.
We don’t know.
People don’t want Dubas replaced because they say he needs the chance and time to show his vision.
I can’t tell you we’re Lou was going. He had limited time.

 

[ACC1224]

Yup, Dubas decided to use picks to create space and it didn't work out.

Curious though, how do you know Lou wouldn't have? He was literally the first GM to trade a pick for cap space under the cap.he introduced the concept. It's actually the only capable for the Marleau trade

And still, I gotta say I'm confused at why a poster who says the D needed to improve would want to be locked in to a top 4 of

Mo - Hainsey
Gards - Z

For the next year (at least) when they clearly weren't good enough

I believe most GM's wouldn't have put themselves into the position where they were forced to.

 

[Gary Nylund]

In red.

Once again, a 1 game sample. Also, outplaying the other guy doesn't always mean winning the game, and you'd know that if you actually read instead of looking for a gotcha. Columbus got absolutely destroyed in that game. Tampa should have scored over 7 goals in that time. Korpisalo was the better goaltender. He did his job better than the other guy, and WAY better than what should be expected.

Of course it doesn't and I've never said it does. Your already questionable reading comprehension "skills" seem to be going downhill fast, not sure what else there is to say here.

I criticize Dubas when it's deserved, and I have been a big supporter of Andersen until this year, when he deserves the criticism he's getting.

Which from what I've seen, according to you is never. But here's your chance, what are things that Dubas has done that deserve to be criticized.

Both of those statements are factually true.

To say our skaters outperformed theirs with their pathetic total of 3 ES goals is suspect to say the least. I know you desperately want to blame Andersen, I just don't understand why that is.

Our offense did do their job. They created chances and controlled the play. Sometimes you can't beat a hot goaltender no matter what you do, especially on horrible ice. Thought that might have occurred to you after watching the Tampa game.



Not sure why we're even talking about Aho in the first place, and you're just going to ignore and twist anything I say like usual, but:

You were talking about Aho long before I said a word about him. I know you love cherry picking and posting numbers but you're incredibly naive (or willfully ignorant) if you think that stats are all you need for player evaluation.

Which is the problem with ignoring massive samples to look at 3 games against wildly different opponent quality, where one plays against the worst defensive team and a struggling goalie, shooting unsustainably well, and the other plays against the best defensive team and an insanely hot goalie, shooting unsustainably bad.

The fact that Aho has outplayed Marner in the playoffs is a problem only for you because it refutes your claim that Marner is easily better than Aho.

I understand your useless example perfectly well.

The example is far from useless. You either don't understand it or you're pretending not to.

The only one dismissing something valid here is you. The NHL decides. The NHL says it's the playoffs.

The opposite is true - I've acknowledged evidence for both sides, you on the other keep ignoring what you don't want to admit exists.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Muzzin's a good player and is exactly the type of D man the Leafs needed, however he's getting long in the tooth and might not age well? I think time will tell whether that trade was a win or loss, because he wasn't the difference in getting beyond the first round. Having said that him getting hurt was a serious problem when your D is Swiss cheese thin.

If next season is scraped, Muzz will be that much older. Acquiring vet D men is a double edged sword imo. Sadly in many instances they're pylons waiting to happen................

True, we can never be sure of how they will age. My philosophy is to judge trades at the time they were made as it doesn't seem fair to criticize with the benefit of hindsight. And at the time, the Muzzin trade was fantastic and I give Dubas top marks for that one.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You couldn’t predict it though my concerns were using a quality asset for a 1 year gap who was reported to want 8 mil. Colorado gets a 2C at 4.5.
We were trending to have the same issue again.

A part of me just wants to fry Dubas for trading Kadri at all. But at the time it made sense, two years in a row suspended in the playoffs etc. and also he's pretty much at the end of his prime and we couldn't foresee how badly Barrie would play here and so on. The main thing is that I couldn't foresee how much we'd miss the emotion Kadri plays with. We just seemed so listless so often.

But I digress, I couldn't criticize the trade at the time so I don't see how I can do it now. And Kerfoot showed signs of being a very useful player in the playoffs, hopefully the best is yet to some for him

Expected goals are better than actual goals. LOL.

I loved the squirming & dancing around the playoff goal & point production comparison between Aho & Marner. Evidently, we don't want our players scoring goals/points in the playoffs. It's not important. LOL.

I can't stop laughing, that Dekes dude is really something else.

 

[rumman]

True, we can never be sure of how they will age. My philosophy is to judge trades at the time they were made as it doesn't seem fair to criticize with the benefit of hindsight. And at the time, the Muzzin trade was fantastic and I give Dubas top marks for that one.

I might agree with you if the Leafs were still in the hunt for the cup, but sadly they aren't.