Snow/Wang Must Go!

[Strome18]

Nothing's 'me,' if Wang decides he only wants to cut a check for $50M, how bad does it look being cut to 8 years as opposed to seven?

Also, at the time of the trade, the team was 4-4-2. Injuries combined with a few other factors to create the slump. Had the Islanders been healthier and/or had a little more depth, it could have gone much differently. And yes; in hindsight, we needed more depth to combat those injuries, and that does absolutely fall to Snow. At the time there was reason and sentiment shared around this board that Poulin and Donovan were about at the time at which they should be tested at NHL duty. They weren't. Does that mean you go and make a panic deal like Mad Mike would? (the only situations we "missed out on" IMO were Keaton Ellerby going to the Jets and Scrivens going to the Oilers. Pretty sure Jets took Ellerby before he got to NYI on the waiver wire (which I only look to because the Islanders cannot afford to trade more prospects in bundles for players just yet.) Would have been nice to get Scrivens, but we don't even know if they were in on that one, and Poulin did warrant a look once upon a time.

Again, I'd glass the whole front office and start from scratch, but as I said coming to "Scared Strait" in a much more genial consensus than this seems to be headed toward, I trust Wang THAT little to make hockey decision one and hate his austerity measures, which are at the heart of what's hindering this team. If we had Pegulabucks backing us and this were the result, yeah - fine, but it is not - it's Wang's unwillingness to invest that make a rookie GM's mistakes WORSE, and negates the one thing Snow did do - make a roster that has it's centerpiece and most other parts intact with a high-end prospect pool that will benefit the most when an owner cares to invest in it worth a damn.

If you can't see that there's enough logic in this perspective for debate without trying making me wonder whether or not you're trying to insult my intelligence, there's nothing else that needs to be said.

(By backtracking I meant read back in the conversation - I was asked about the 8th year, so I made a point about the eighth year.)

Love your posts and they are spot on. I just wish I had the patience and time to write a book about this conversation.

 

[Felix Unger]

In all sports, teams with terrible owners never win championships.

Loria is pretty terrible. Back in the 80's, people thought Steinbrenner was pretty terrible.

The difference between a terrible owner and a good owner is the good owner hires good management. I want Wang to hire good management and stop being a terrible owner. This isn't an either-or scenario.

Of course, that's my second choice to having FCR/Prokhorov take over. But whatever.

 

[MaryChristine*]

Nothing's 'me,' if Wang decides he only wants to cut a check for $50M, how bad does it look being cut to 8 years as opposed to seven?

Also, at the time of the trade, the team was 4-4-2. Injuries combined with a few other factors to create the slump. Had the Islanders been healthier and/or had a little more depth, it could have gone much differently. And yes; in hindsight, we needed more depth to combat those injuries, and that does absolutely fall to Snow. At the time there was reason and sentiment shared around this board that Poulin and Donovan were about at the time at which they should be tested at NHL duty. They weren't. Does that mean you go and make a panic deal like Mad Mike would? (the only situations we "missed out on" IMO were Keaton Ellerby going to the Jets and Scrivens going to the Oilers. Pretty sure Jets took Ellerby before he got to NYI on the waiver wire (which I only look to because the Islanders cannot afford to trade more prospects in bundles for players just yet.) Would have been nice to get Scrivens, but we don't even know if they were in on that one, and Poulin did warrant a look once upon a time.

Again, I'd glass the whole front office and start from scratch, but as I said coming to "Scared Strait" in a much more genial consensus than this seems to be headed toward, I trust Wang THAT little to make hockey decision one and hate his austerity measures, which are at the heart of what's hindering this team. If we had Pegulabucks backing us and this were the result, yeah - fine, but it is not - it's Wang's unwillingness to invest that make a rookie GM's mistakes WORSE, and negates the one thing Snow did do - make a roster that has it's centerpiece and most other parts intact with a high-end prospect pool that will benefit the most when an owner cares to invest in it worth a damn.

If you can't see that there's enough logic in this perspective for debate without trying making me wonder whether or not you're trying to insult my intelligence, there's nothing else that needs to be said.

(By backtracking I meant read back in the conversation - I was asked about the 8th year, so I made a point about the eighth year.)

A ROOKIE GM?! Correct me if I'm wrong.. hasn't he been GM for 8 years!?
No one is arguing that Wang is cheap. I'm pretty sure Snow is just incompetent. I'm pretty sure he knew Wang was only going to pay so much for Vanek to begin with, but he though we would be a playoff team and that playing with JT would mean Vanek would take a discount. So instead of just keeping Moulson and Gaining a 1st round pick, we have to wait and hope we break even... You're right... he is a Rookie GM.

 

[Quicklime]

Love your posts and they are spot on. I just wish I had the patience and time to write a book about this conversation.

Thank you for the nod. At the risk of using political figures as a metaphor, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to blame Lyndon B. Johnson for Word War II, now does it?

That's what I see this as; a line-of-succession scapegoat for problem created years in advance before their tenure. Absolutely there were a few questionable moves, but none that would be so pivotal as to repeatedly shank the progress of the franchise because the owner is a lunatic.

 

[MaryChristine*]

make a roster that has it's centerpiece and most other parts intact with a high-end prospect pool that will benefit the most when an owner cares to invest in it worth a damn.

Imagine if we had dumped Cappy in November, and hired Laviolette. Because you are right... we have a great centerpiece and good pieces, which we misuse under Cappy. If we would have kept Moulson, Fired Cappy and Hired Laviolette or another competent coach... We'd be in a good position right now. But NOOOOOOOO Garth had to pre ejactulate over the whole damn playoff thing.. and he has to keep his best friend Cappy as head coach.

(By backtracking I meant read back in the conversation - I was asked about the 8th year, so I made a point about the eighth year.)

I know what you meant my back tracking... and I said I will not back track, Ill just pick on you now.

 

[MaryChristine*]

make a roster that has it's centerpiece and most other parts intact with a high-end prospect pool that will benefit the most when an owner cares to invest in it worth a damn.

Imagine if we had dumped Cappy in November, and hired Laviolette. Because you are right... we have a great centerpiece and good pieces, which we misused under Cappy. If we would have kept Moulson, Fired Cappy and Hired Laviolette or another competent coach... We'd be in a good position right now. But NOOOOOOOO Garth had to pre ejactulate over the whole damn playoff thing.. and he has to keep his best friend Cappy as head coach.

 

[Le Grec]

Thats the problem.. Why is he desperate?!
MAYBE It's because our goal tending sucks ass and he didn't pick up a goalie in the offseason
MAYBE it's because our Coach sucks ass and he Snow insists on keeping him around.
MAYBE it's because we traded Nino
He is consistently making more Bad choices than good ones.

Admit that Snow makes big mistakes.
and I admit he makes some good decisions..Small good decisions. like getting nabby and visnovsky to resign.. woopty doo

I won't admit that Snow has made "big" mistakes because i don't believe he has.

I'll admit he has made mistakes.

 

[Felix Unger]

Thank you for the nod. At the risk of using political figures as a metaphor, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to blame Lyndon B. Johnson for Word War II, now does it?

To extend the metaphor, I *would* blame him for escalating Vietnam



Look, I definitely don't mean to insult your intelligence. You can string 10 sentences into a paragraph. You construct arguments. That counts for quite a lot around here. Still, I don't think your explanation of this particular turn of events is all that satisfying.

 

[MaryChristine*]

Thank you for the nod. At the risk of using political figures as a metaphor, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to blame Lyndon B. Johnson for Word War II, now does it?

That's what I see this as; a line-of-succession scapegoat for problem created years in advance before their tenure. Absolutely there were a few questionable moves, but none that would be so pivotal as to repeatedly shank the progress of the franchise because the owner is a lunatic.

The difference is that Lydon B Johnson and every other president don't actually run anything... they are just the face of the presidency and that's all... they are not actually calling the shots dude. So that is an awful analogy
Snow is running EVERYTHING. Albeit on a really low budget, but that does't excuse half the crap he's done.

 

[Le Grec]

Loria is pretty terrible. Back in the 80's, people thought Steinbrenner was pretty terrible.

The difference between a terrible owner and a good owner is the good owner hires good management. I want Wang to hire good management and stop being a terrible owner. This isn't an either-or scenario.

Of course, that's my second choice to having FCR/Prokhorov take over. But whatever.

I won't get into Loria because he's a con artist on a whole other level.



As for Steinbrenner, he only had success when he left the management team be.

Maybe if Snow had carte blanche and an open check book, he too could have success.

 

[MaryChristine*]

I won't admit that Snow has made "big" mistakes because i don't believe he has.

I'll admit he has made mistakes.

The Nino trade wasn't a big mistake to you?!
Keeping Cappy around isn't a big mistake to you?
Not getting a Goalie in the offseason isn't a big mistake to you?

 

[MaryChristine*]

The Nino trade wasn't a big mistake to you?!
Keeping Cappy around isn't a big mistake to you?
Not getting a Goalie in the offseason isn't a big mistake to you?

All which have NOTHING to do with Wang being Cheap by the way...

 

[Quicklime]

Imagine if we had dumped Cappy in November, and hired Laviolette. Because you are right... we have a great centerpiece and good pieces, which we misused under Cappy. If we would have kept Moulson, Fired Cappy and Hired Laviolette or another competent coach... We'd be in a good position right now. But NOOOOOOOO Garth had to pre ejactulate over the whole damn playoff thing.. and he has to keep his best friend Cappy as head coach.

I advocated dumping Capuano and still do.

Imagine if ownership had put the fix in and payed proper for a real NHL coach, rather than requiring the team to hire through the "Buddy System"?

While I still would have sought to move Moulson and likely would not have done it for Vanek or moved the picks, I fully understand the trade, why it was made, and the balls behind it. The failure in the deal wasn't the deal itself so much as the minimal countermeasures in place long before the trade was made (appropriate depth, the willingness to offer a handsome contract by the organization, and the organization itself being a known quantity), and the new captain, lack of depth, inexperienced coach, likely sub-standard facilities, youth of the team in general, and lack of the most experienced player and almost pseudo-captain Nabokov on the ice combined sunk this team Christmas, and these are all things the come from an owner who runs his organization, to quote Al Pacino in the Devil's Advocate, like an absentee landlord.

 

[Quicklime]

The difference is that Lydon B Johnson and every other president don't actually run anything... they are just the face of the presidency and that's all... they are not actually calling the shots dude. So that is an awful analogy
Snow is running EVERYTHING. Albeit on a really low budget, but that does't excuse half the crap he's done.

It isn't an awful analogy if the man can't spend like an NHL team can spend.

The Nino trade wasn't a big mistake to you?!
Keeping Cappy around isn't a big mistake to you?
Not getting a Goalie in the offseason isn't a big mistake to you?

I explained my thoughts on Capuano in a post above.

As for Nino, the reason his development was botched in the first place? The cap floor. Who controls this? The owner. When Nino leaked his issues to the press, it pooched his value. I like Clutterbuck as a player, but the intangibles he adds would increase immediately on a playoff team.

As for the goalie, again, there was reason to give Poulin the nod, enough that the board debated over it for pages as we're debating over this now.

 

[MaryChristine*]

I advocated dumping Capuano and still do.

Imagine if ownership had put the fix in and payed proper for a real NHL coach, rather than requiring the team to hire through the "Buddy System"?

STOP! Snow was not Required to hire through the buddy system. We were prepared to pay Vanek 7M. We could have kept moulson, hired laviolette and saved over 3M while gaining a 1st.

 

[Le Grec]

The Nino trade wasn't a big mistake to you?!
Keeping Cappy around isn't a big mistake to you?
Not getting a Goalie in the offseason isn't a big mistake to you?

The Nino trade was only a mistake because he could have gotten more.
Not getting a goalie this summer, somewhat of a mistake.

Do these 2 actions cripple the team?
No, so i don't think of them as BIG mistakes.

A big mistake is trading Luongo & Jokinen...for garbage!



Now, as for Cappy, that is a HUGE mistake, but i don't know what to say about that seing as Wang has a history of interfering with the coaching hirings/firings.

 

[MaryChristine*]

I explained my thoughts on Capuano in a post above.

As for Nino, the reason his development was botched in the first place? The cap floor. Who controls this? The owner. When Nino leaked his issues to the press, it pooched his value. I like Clutterbuck as a player, but the intangibles he adds would increase immediately on a playoff team.

As for the goalie, again, there was reason to give Poulin the nod, enough that the board debated over it for pages as we're debating over this now.

Its obvious to me that the whole organization doesn't have a good grasp on what they have in their players. I think EVERYONE agrees that players have been mishandled. It's that simple. And why couldn't we have kept Poulin? The real question is Why did we resign Nabby?

 

[Quicklime]

STOP! Snow was not Required to hire through the buddy system. We were prepared to pay Vanek 7M. We could have kept moulson, hired laviolette and saved over 3M while gaining a 1st.

I find that it's the point when one starts throwing barbs and ranting at which the train starts running low on steam, no? How do you know that Laviolette would come back, or that Wang would pay him what he was asking? Are coaches banging down the door to Wang's mansion and plunging through his retinue of machete-wielding steroid addicted amazonian ladyboy guards to cajole Wang into paying proper pound for a true coach? Do you have the room bugged? Remember all the threads and moaning about how limited Moulson was, and how JT would have his game opened up by a more dynamic winger?

It isn't like anything management has done isn't by and large things much of the fanbase wanted. Other than a few trades in which we were either handcuffed or had to pony up picks, there isn't a problem you can name that can't be traced back to the financial aspect of this team.

 

[MaryChristine*]

The Nino trade was only a mistake because he could have gotten more.
Not getting a goalie this summer, somewhat of a mistake.

Do these 2 actions cripple the team?
No, so i don't think of them as BIG mistakes.

A big mistake is trading Luongo & Jokinen...for garbage!



Now, as for Cappy, that is a HUGE mistake, but i don't know what to say about that seing as Wang has a history of interfering with the coaching hirings/firings.

Wow goaltending hasn't crippled the team?
REALLY?
I know our D sucks... really sucks... but do you watch games? How many times have our goal tenders let us down in the third with less than a minute to go when the opposing team ties the game. There are countless scenarios where goal tending would have been the difference and clearly crippled us. AND YES.. THE Nino trade was a mistake BECAUSE WE COULD HAVE GOTTEN MORE... That's a big mistake dude. what the heck.

 

[MaryChristine*]

I find that it's the point when one starts throwing barbs and ranting at which the train starts running low on steam, no? How do you know that Laviolette would come back, or that Wang would pay him what he was asking? Are coaches banging down the door to Wang's mansion and plunging through his retinue of machete-wielding steroid addicted amazonian ladyboy guards to cajole Wang into paying proper pound for a true coach? Do you have the room bugged? Remember all the threads and moaning about how limited Moulson was, and how JT would have his game opened up by a more dynamic winger?

It isn't like anything management has done isn't by and large things much of the fanbase wanted. Other than a few trades in which we were either handcuffed or had to pony up picks, there isn't a problem you can name that can't be traced back to the financial aspect of this team.

It didn't have to be Laviolette... Laviolette wasn't making as much as he does now when we first hired him. There are competent AHL Coaches. Are you telling me you think Cappy is the mostt competent AHL Coach Snow could find?

 

[Quicklime]

Its obvious to me that the whole organization doesn't have a good grasp on what they have in their players. I think EVERYONE agrees that players have been mishandled. It's that simple. And why couldn't we have kept Poulin? The real question is Why did we resign Nabby?

If I recall correctly, Bernier and Schneider were both traded before Nabokov was resigned. They went with a known quantity after swinging for trades and not being able to outbid the Devils or Leafs.

 

[Hip Of Rick*]

I want to napalm this thread into oblivion. I see that under thread tools I can ignore this thread, you have won Snow supporters, I surrender. You have conquered this thread with relentless excuses and with the ultimate cop out of throwing all blame to Wang.

Snow is awesome and you all deserve him as your GM for a LIFETIME.

Gone from this forsaken thread for ever.

I need a break from this madness as well. No matter how poor of a job Snow has done its Wangs fault.

If one believes Snow is doing a fine job when finishing in the bottom 5 year after year than they are drinking some high quality kool-aid

 

[MaryChristine*]

If I recall correctly, Bernier and Schneider were both traded before Nabokov was resigned. They went with a known quantity after swinging for trades and not being able to outbid the Devils or Leafs.

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on...-trade-cory-schneider-to-devils-for-no-9-pick

 

[Le Grec]

Wow goaltending hasn't crippled the team?
REALLY?
I know our D sucks... really sucks... but do you watch games? How many times have our goal tenders let us down in the third with less than a minute to go when the opposing team ties the game. There are countless scenarios where goal tending would have been the difference and clearly crippled us. AND YES.. THE Nino trade was a mistake BECAUSE WE COULD HAVE GOTTEN MORE... That's a big mistake dude. what the heck.

Listen dude, this is a rebuild.

Did you expect Snow to trade for a goalie who would take up a spot of one of the younger guys?

Garth is going to play the kids and see what they got, and i personally agree with that mindset.

Just like i don't want Snow signing any D-men. There are too many who deserve a chance to play.


I don't think the Nino trade is a huge mistake because i don't believe Nino was going to be a top 3 forward on the Isles.
And i don't believe Cal is going to hurt this team in anyway.

That's my opinion, time will tell.

 

[Quicklime]

It didn't have to be Laviolette... Laviolette wasn't making as much as he does now when we first hired him. There are competent AHL Coaches. Are you telling me you think Cappy is the mostt competent AHL Coach Snow could find?

No, he was the one in the system, and that's all. That's why he's still here. Why didn't we have a better coach in the NHL in the first place?