Confirmed with Link: Signed: Vladislav Namestnikov (2X2)

[Retire91]

No. Stop trying to stratify people. There is no need to bring up "Oh, you old Holland apologists!"

Ken Holland was and still is a great GM. He made some very very mind-boggling dumb decisions in the mid 2010s.

Steve Yzerman is a great GM.

If you look at Ken Holland's moves post 2016 (largely, post Mr. I's death... RIP), he was making the same kind of rebuilding moves that you're now lauding Yzerman for. We had 10-12 picks annually from 2017 on. There was ONE season in which it was Yzerman pulling the strings on dealing the guys to get these picks. And it's not like they just added a bunch of 7ths. In the last four years, the Wings have had 18 draft picks in the top 3 rounds.

The person who wanted to go for it every year? That was Mr. I who was the big boss. After his passing, the Wings stopped "going for it" every year.

I was in favor of signing Krug. I thought he'd be an elite puck mover on our back end and it would be a huge get. I also was 100% fine with not signing him if he wanted a boatload of cash. Like I wouldn't be upset if we have Krug at 7x6.5. I'm not upset about not having him now.

Time seems to have changed the argument, weather or not Holland's hands were tied he is still the poster child for the decisions made at that time. Who was responsible is just a smoke screen to hide behind people saying things like singing Alfredson and trading for Legwand were "great moves" because you should try to win every year. Wihtout acknowledging that Alfredson was part of what happened this season. No one said Illich probably wants to keep going for it before he dies so let the man have his party. They said "Holland is doing a good job" "These are great moves to stay competitive". That is a huge difference and sorry 8 years latter I am not going to sit here and be gaslit that people were clued in Illich all along. People said Holland is doing the right thing. Own it.

Now it is time to rebuild in a way that gives us the best chance at building a new core even if that means 3-4 seasons of terrible results. But the Holland is doing a great job crew has morphed into the lets sign 30 year old's to get back on the endless bubble crew. It's just exhausting listening to the same people that accepted perpetual mediocrity try to steer the ship now with a bunch on nonsense signings like Petrangelo and Krug. Get on board with what needs to happen for once. Think the game 5 years from now instead of this season. That is how Yzerman operates and if you think otherwise prepare to be disappointed for a while.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Holland WAS doing the right thing. His moves ended up being awful in totality, but jesus dude. You can be in favor of the new regime without shitting on the old one.

Also, there is a huge difference between signing Pietrangelo and signing Krug. Pie would be by far the best defenseman to wear the jersey since Lidstrom. It's why you'd try to get Stamkos on the line in '16. Tavares on the line in '18. Pietrangelo is an elite player not a nonsense player. If he'd listen to what you're selling, you're a fool not to talk to him.

 

[RedMenace]

Time seems to have changed the argument, weather or not Holland's hands were tied he is still the poster child for the decisions made at that time. Who was responsible is just a smoke screen to hide behind people saying things like singing Alfredson and trading for Legwand were "great moves" because you should try to win every year. Wihtout acknowledging that Alfredson was part of what happened this season. No one said Illich probably wants to keep going for it before he dies so let the man have his party. They said "Holland is doing a good job" "These are great moves to stay competitive". That is a huge difference and sorry 8 years latter I am not going to sit here and be gaslit that people were clued in Illich all along. People said Holland is doing the right thing. Own it.

Now it is time to rebuild in a way that gives us the best chance at building a new core even if that means 3-4 seasons of terrible results. But the Holland is doing a great job crew has morphed into the lets sign 30 year old's to get back on the endless bubble crew. It's just exhausting listening to the same people that accepted perpetual mediocrity try to steer the ship now with a bunch on nonsense signings like Petrangelo and Krug. Get on board with what needs to happen for once. Think the game 5 years from now instead of this season. That is how Yzerman operates and if you think otherwise prepare to be disappointed for a while.

So what is it you want, exactly? Do you want them to just roll with all kids and let them get decimated that way instead? You have to have veterans on a team. You simply can't have nobody to buffer the young guys from getting blown the f*** up every night, and expect it not to stunt their growth as players. Remember, these are people, not hockeybots.

For the record, I voted against Krug (or was at least VERY vocal about not wanting him), nor do I don't think Petro is the right move either.

Do you really feel like people are trying to "gaslight" you? Really?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

So what is it you want, exactly? Do you want them to just roll with all kids and let them get decimated that way instead? You have to have veterans on a team. You simply can't have nobody to buffer the young guys from getting blown the f*** up every night, and expect it not to stunt their growth as players. Remember, these are people, not hockeybots.

For the record, I voted against Krug (or was at least VERY vocal about not wanting him), nor do I don't think Petro is the right move either.

Do you really feel like people are trying to "gaslight" you? Really?

*Flips on the lights in rooms that Retire91 just left*

 

[waltdetroit]

Because Yzerman doesn't think that they suck and he values having organizational depth. Even if a guy like Dominic Turgeon never gets a regular shot with the Wings, the idea is that he'd be in GR and guys like LGD and crew would have to continue to try to get better or there is a young hungry kid that could be called up.

Yes I agree. I was being rhetorical

 

[14ari13]

Not everyone wants to rebuild that way.

Just because a vocal contingent of those people exists, doesn't mean everyone -- especially those who matter in the Wings organ-I-zation -- think the same way.

You don't need consistent bottom of the league finishes to rebuild a team. Seriously. You need a GM who has solid plans A, B, C, D, etc for as many contingencies as possible.

For example, what if the Wings don't get a bottom-5 finish this year? Is everyone here going to just say, "AHHHHHHHGGGGGG I f***ing quit this team is terrible they can't even tank right rabblerabblerabble?"

I think it is pretty much clear now that we will have to bring in a core player via FA.

I would not be surprised if Yzerman brought in Krug now, but it seems like Yzerman is done for this off season.

I think Yzerman and Blashill are on the same page. I am quite happy with the way they are running the team for now.

As I said in my previous post these whinings about Blashill are like heated discussions on Wallin and Kuznetsov. I think Blashills impact on where this team will be in 5-10 years is like 0,0001% one way or the other.

 

[Gniwder]

Naw... it's just kind of like the old HF boards adage... if both sides hate a deal it's probably fair. I actually try my best to talk sense on what I say. Sometimes I just have a strong opinion the other way. I'm with you on Winger though. I was actually surprised at how strong he came in this topic.

To be honest, I see Winger's point, though. He's coming from a place where Chris Ilitch has pretty much, prior to taking ownership, been a business-first, dollars and cents kind of guy. An owner like that is kind of anathema to someone who really doesn't care for public money being used for stadiums (a reasonable position to hold). I just know that right this second, the Tigers have been basically following the idea that the Astros used. We suck now and have no prospect future, so we're going to rein in spending and focus on building a farm system so we can get back up to reasonable spending later. Why spend tens of millions to be mediocre now when you could drop in those tens of millions when you have a core of young, good players and maybe make yourself great. Same with the Wings. Ever since the institution of the cap, we've been capped out. We've had the flexibility to make moves, but it was always with the aim of spending to the cap.

I'm not gonna argue baseball because I don't watch the sport anymore.

As far as the Wings, I've anticipated most of Stevie/Chris' moves including buying Abby out. I said it multiple times this summer, and everyone has argued with me. I also said they were going cheap on D.

The business aspect of this is extremely simple, as soon as they can have arena attendance again the team becomes profitable. The more seats they fill, the more money they make. They can't fill the seats unless they have a winning team. Therefore, Chris will open up the checkbook as soon as arenas are open for fans. It's logical to do so from a profit perspective so Chris will do it. I am not the least bit worried. Stevie though, may not choose to go max cap right away depending on who's available and who the team needs to re-sign.

It simply doesn't make any business sense to make a big splash in free agency this season with COVID, no fan attendance, and a guaranteed money losing season.


Also, Turgeon has a 2 way contract, $115k. Probably just protecting in case they actually play.

 

[Retire91]

So what is it you want, exactly? Do you want them to just roll with all kids and let them get decimated that way instead? You have to have veterans on a team. You simply can't have nobody to buffer the young guys from getting blown the f*** up every night, and expect it not to stunt their growth as players. Remember, these are people, not hockeybots.

For the record, I voted against Krug (or was at least VERY vocal about not wanting him), nor do I don't think Petro is the right move either.

Do you really feel like people are trying to "gaslight" you? Really?

I have been arguing before 2012 that this team needed to start thinking about a rebuild or at least a serious reload and got piled on at every turn. Now when there is seriously no sane argument in existence against this team needing top 5 talent people want to sing Krug. Its just exhausting is what it is. Stop thinking about the game only one season down the road is what I want. When someone defends Holland's moves as great during the get in and anything can happen years don't conveniently change the playing field several years later to its what Illich wanted. Take some ownership that instead of tanking this team actually "is" that bad because of what Holland's legacy left us and if you supported Holland getting us here then STF up about singing 30 year olds so we can be 4th from last place instead of last place.

This team needs top 5 talent for the future, signing good to great players just so we can be mediocre now does absolutely nothing for us now and also skews the future to be harder to obtain talent. Its not tanking its structuring your roster for long term growth. I can't understand how people can feel Abby and Cleary and Neilsen bubble hockey to get destroyed in the first round was great hockey, but then falling to last place on a roster that imploded because of that hockey needs to be "fixed immediately!!!!!!!".

I don't mean to lump people into a camp, I apologize for that, it is too far. I just hope people can understand that the rebuild many have been waiting for for almost 10 years now is finally here. I take extreme offense that people want to Krug it up.

*Flips on the lights in rooms that Retire91 just left*

Actually he filppula'd the light on

 

[RedMenace]

I think it is pretty much clear now that we will have to bring in a core player via FA.

I would not be surprised if Yzerman brought in Krug now, but it seems like Yzerman is done for this off season.

I think Yzerman and Blashill are on the same page. I am quite happy with the way they are running the team for now.

As I said in my previous post these whinings about Blashill are like heated discussions on Wallin and Kuznetsov. I think Blashills impact on where this team will be in 5-10 years is like 0,0001% one way or the other.

Well, considering Krug is already off the market, I don't think he can bring him in now.

There are big names available in trade or FA all the time, it's all about finding the right fit for the team. Krug wasn't that. His window didn't match ours, as far as I'm concerned.

The moves SFY has made so far have been fine. Good, even. You have to start with a solid foundation before you can add the fancy bits up top. He's reshaping the team into his vision, and only based on what Holland left as much as he wants.

I have been arguing before 2012 that this team needed to start thinking about a rebuild or at least a serious reload and got piled on at every turn. Now when there is seriously no sane argument in existence against this team needing top 5 talent people want to sing Krug. Its just exhausting is what it is. Stop thinking about the game only one season down the road is what I want. When someone defends Holland's moves as great during the get in and anything can happen years don't conveniently change the playing field several years later to its what Illich wanted. Take some ownership that instead of tanking this team actually "is" that bad because of what Holland's legacy left us and if you supported Holland getting us here then STF up about singing 30 year olds so we can be 4th from last place instead of last place.

This team needs top 5 talent for the future, signing good to great players just so we can be mediocre now does absolutely nothing for us now and also skews the future to be harder to obtain talent. Its not tanking its structuring your roster for long term growth. I can't understand how people can feel Abby and Cleary and Neilsen bubble hockey to get destroyed in the first round was great hockey, but then falling to last place on a roster that imploded because of that hockey needs to be "fixed immediately!!!!!!!".

I don't mean to lump people into a camp, I apologize for that, it is too far. I just hope people can understand that the rebuild many have been waiting for for almost 10 years now is finally here. I take extreme offense that people want to Krug it up.

Perhaps I misunderstood your original position, because it seems like we agree for the most part. My apologies.

Actually he filppula'd the light on

If it was me, I definitely Weird Flipped the lights on.

 

[Retire91]

Well, considering Krug is already off the market, I don't think he can bring him in now.

There are big names available in trade or FA all the time, it's all about finding the right fit for the team. Krug wasn't that. His window didn't match ours, as far as I'm concerned.

The moves SFY has made so far have been fine. Good, even. You have to start with a solid foundation before you can add the fancy bits up top. He's reshaping the team into his vision, and only based on what Holland left as much as he wants.



Perhaps I misunderstood your original position, because it seems like we agree for the most part. My apologies.



If it was me, I definitely Weird Flipped the lights on.

Sorry I am venting in all directions, Krug just triggers me. He is the quintessential example of what this team does not need right now. He would be our Phil Kessel to the leaf's although not as dramatic.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Well, considering Krug is already off the market, I don't think he can bring him in now.

There are big names available in trade or FA all the time, it's all about finding the right fit for the team. Krug wasn't that. His window didn't match ours, as far as I'm concerned.

The moves SFY has made so far have been fine. Good, even. You have to start with a solid foundation before you can add the fancy bits up top. He's reshaping the team into his vision, and only based on what Holland left as much as he wants.



Perhaps I misunderstood your original position, because it seems like we agree for the most part. My apologies.



If it was me, I definitely Weird Flipped the lights on.

I liked the Alfredsson signing. Just like I'd love an Ovy signing, a Lundqvist sign, etc. I'll stay consistent on that... if you're signing Hall of Famer players for a last hurrah, well, I'm a fan of seeing great players who can still turn it on every now and again. I didn't mind Modano for that reason either.

Legwand ended up being a terrible move because for some reason Babcock banned him to the fourth line. It was in some small way understandable if you thought you'd added a 2C and you were going to re-sign him after 13-14. But it ended up being a two month rental and a godawful waste of resources. I'll pin blame for that one on Babcock, because he's the one who banished Legwand to the 4th line even though he actually looked alright as a top 6C. I wasn't happy they included Jarnkrok in the deal. I liked Calle and was floored when I saw that they had.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Sorry I am venting in all directions, Krug just triggers me. He is the quintessential example of what this team does not need right now. He would be our Phil Kessel to the leaf's although not as dramatic.

The only reason I would have been ok with Krug is the Wings were SO inept at moving the puck from the backend (in the same system that Tampa uses that leans super heavily on the skill of Hedman, McDonagh, and Sergachev, no less). It's entirely possible that our forwards are better than we give them credit for. Like they are more deficient at zone exits and entrances than they should be but are otherwise effective

 

[Retire91]

The problem is timing, weather or not Modono, Alfredson, Legwand arguably were good moves that made the team better the problem with the moves has always been timing. When your window has closed and your team is rapidly declining its not time to shore up your mediocrity with slightly better mediocrity. Its time to start planning for the long term. The rebuild is excruciating because its 6 years overdue. Time to dig deep and let it happen.

As for Krug our forwards could be pretty solid if the backend was fixed but why play ourself out of the top 5, I don't see any gains from it and when Krug ages out in 3-4 years there is nothing beyond his contract to show for it. It just screws up our draft to be slightly less terrible.

 

[lilidk]

 

[Astyanax]

I understand that, but the Wings aren't looking to have any cap crunch over the next four seasons, so saving ~$600k against the Cap during the 2022-23 and 2023-24 seasons means very little. There's currently one player signed through either of those seasons, and that's Larkin. While Mantha, Bert and Hronek are sure to be extended longer that that, those are literally the only players on the near horizon looking to get a big payday from the Wings. Beyond that, the only big extensions that off-season (other than Larkin) will be Zadina and potentially Seider (if his contract slides this season). An extra few hundred thousand dollars won't impact those signings in the least.

That said, I would still prefer to ride out Nielsen's contract, if only because someone will need to play after the inevitable TDL sell-off.

 

[Astyanax]

Most importantly we need someone to expose in expansion draft.

 

[saska sault]

Mantha fought two players who later became Red Wings... Who else has Fabbri fought? This is our crystal ball.

 

[ArmChairGM89]

Mantha fought two players who later became Red Wings... Who else has Fabbri fought? This is our crystal ball.

Ooo I love balls

 

[Astyanax]

Rafalski was the missing piece, we don't win '08 without him. We were so close in '07, but the refs allowed the "Death by a 1,000 cuts" Ducks to cheat every shift & couldn't call the majority of them...29 other teams also contacted the league regarding this, not just the Wings (I read an article, think it was Al Strachan iirc). '07 WCF was a farce, but to the outsider, that just sounds like a disgruntled Wings fan. Kinda like '09 SCF, Malkin punching Datsyuk's back of head, after the game was over, yet no automatic 1 game suspension. Crosby & his 500 cross-checks to Z's back, crickets from the refs. Buttman condensing the TV schedule so we're playing virtually back to back series vs. rested Pens. Roberts & Guerin roughing up Franzen's head in consecutive years, coming off concussion(s). Ok, I'm pissed now. But yeah,to your point, injuries can't be projected to that degree.

It was z and he got the suspension, but Bettman overruled his man and resided the suspension. Malkin also scored the game winning goal on power play they did not deserve. The penguins were playing with too many men, for 25 seconds but we got a penalty for holding i think. F*** Bittman. He screwed us.

 

[saska sault]

Ooo I love balls

The lottery balls do not love us.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

It was z and he got the suspension, but Bettman overruled his man and resided the suspension. Malkin also scored the game winning goal on power play they did not deserve. The penguins were playing with too many men, for 25 seconds but we got a penalty for holding i think. F*** Bittman. He screwed us.

Yeah, I think the 17 sec (iirc) too many men was the biggest farce (or as big) as I've seen in now 45+ yrs of watching hockey. I actually block it out of my mind it enrages me. That gave the Pens a spark/new life etc...rest is history.

Not to worry, when a time machine is invented, it's on my Go Back & Fix It/Make It Right list.

 

[FabricDetails]

Ooo I love balls

 

[odin1981]

Krug would have been a waste not elite. Pietro sure. but I said he wouldn't return our call. But he is the type if you could get to slot players into positions to grow into down the road. But where we are at is that we can't attract the types of players you would want from UFA. That won't happen until we are trending up again with blue chip center's and defensemen.