News Article: Siegel: Kessel Shoulders Burden Of Blame For Leafs Collapse

[Kelly]

Only in Toronto would people actually try to discredit scoring 80 points. Its actually hilarious, if not embarrassing by association.

I laughed at the people that used to attack Sundin and I'm laughing now.

It'll be one of those situations where you'll never know what you had, until its gone.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Could have responded to the rest of it.

The argument is: trade Kessel and rebuild. This draws the implication that Kessel is preventing us from a draft-rebuild by making the team better and taking us out of prime drafting position.

Then the same people argue that Kessel is making our team worse (-5, etc.)

If he's making our team worse then he's helping the rebuild along so your "rebuild, trade Kessel" argument is out the window. If he's making our team better (and preventing a rebuild) then why are the same people trying to make him out to be a detriment?

The only logic that follows is a personal dislike of Kessel since both sides of the coin are being argued by the same people while those sides are intrinsically incompatible.

No I dont dislike Kessel. I did at first due to the trade and what we gave up for him. But that was childish of me seeing as it was not he who made the trade or decided his worth (and the value, 2 first round picks and a second round is fair value...if you are not a bottom team). And that was before we even knew what Boston would draft. And the reason is simple. I viewed us as a team going no where with more questions then answers on the roster who would have benefitted greatly from adding two high first round picks to a prospect pool who at the time was bottom ranked and with a team who lacked leadership, a stabile defense, had no goalie tested with success in the NHL and just a bunch of 2nd line centers (and that was if you was generous towards them).

And then I look at the team and its prospect pool today and even do there are some more bright spots on the roster in Rielly, Bernier, Kadri and Gardiner none of the questions surrounding the team at the trade have been answered even do most of the roster is completely different. Because you generally get equal value back when you make a trade. The less unproven return you ask for, the more you can get.

So with that in mind, I do think we could get either a very high pick and a prospect back for Kessel or a package with young but so far unproven players (similar to how we got Kessel).

So no, I dont really have anything against Kessel personally even do he represent everything that is wrong with this team and franchise, but that is not on him but on Burke and Nonis. If he ends up on a contender or at least a team going places I will cheer him on and hope he does well.

And just as importantly, trading Kessel (and hopefully also Phaneuf) would mean we scratch that nonsense on an accelerated rebuild trying to cut corners to get in to the playoffs at every cost that Burke ranted about. And hopefully during this rebuild we can find a first line center, another top pairing d-man like most other teams have found theirs, in the draft during their rough years.

And who knows, 5 years from now when we have a strong spine, an identity and starting to find success we might need a veteran winger, offer the team who hold his contract a small package of picks and prospects that we by then have plenty of and make a push for the cup, with Kessel, but as a complimentary player.

 

[Trapper]

What is Kessel and his 37 goals and 80 points and $8 mil pending cap suppose to do for the Leafs?.

Is he leading them to the playoff regularly ? NO
Is he leading them to high draft picks ? NO

If Leafs didn't have him they could still miss the playoffs, just like they do with him, but only likely draft higher?. YES
If they traded him for a better player that might help make the playoffs? YES.

What exactly are the Leafs accomplishing here with Kessel by him leading the team in scoring?.

It's not like Kessel just got here last year.
We've tried it their way for 5 years now and it's not working. Burke got here in 2008, brought in Kessel in 2009 and now it's 2014. The core is not good. Your core is supposed to get you to the playoffs. They can't. We can argue the results of the Kessel/Phaneuf Leafs. It's right there. Tell me were good. You can't argue the results of trading Kessel/Phaneuf to build a proper core. Now give us the 5 years and then you can say it's wrong.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

It'll be one of those situations where you'll never know what you had, until its gone.

Yup, lets compare a HHOF, 2-way, PPG center with size and leadership with a goal scoring PPG winger who lacks size and leadership. I mean, a player like Sundin you can actually build around just like you can build around Kopitar. But players like Kessel, Gaborik, Palffy, Cammalleri etc will not bring you success if they are the main guys.

Just because Toronto failed to surround Sundin with the talent needed to win the cup does not take away that the most successful teams are built around centers, and defenders and even goalies. But few, if any team, is built around a winger and have success. Calgary with Iginla perhaps? But he brought leadership, 2-way play and a lot of other stuff to the ice every game along with elite goalscoring.

 

[hotpaws]

Only in Toronto would people actually try to discredit scoring 80 points. Its actually hilarious, if not embarrassing by association.

I laughed at the people that used to attack Sundin and I'm laughing now.

You used to laugh at the people that that didn't believe Burke's accelerated retool could build a cup winner in under 5 years.

You also used laugh at the mystery boxes we gave up to get Kessel.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

You used to laugh at the people that that didn't believe Burke's accelerated retool could build a cup winner in under 5 years.

You also used laugh at the mystery boxes we gave up to get Kessel.

That is what I dont understand.

 

[Milan90]

What is Kessel and his 37 goals and 80 points and $8 mil pending cap suppose to do for the Leafs?.

Is he leading them to the playoff regularly ? NO
Is he leading them to high draft picks ? NO

If Leafs didn't have him they could still miss the playoffs, just like they do with him, but only likely draft higher?. YES
If they traded him for a better player that might help make the playoffs? YES.

What exactly are the Leafs accomplishing here with Kessel by him leading the team in scoring?.

Phil Kessel is not the only part of this team. This is such a stupid ****ing argument that I've gone through dozens of times. Stop making this argument.

Stamkos isn't leading anybody to a playoff win, neither is Tavares, neither has Duchene.

Add more players to your elite winger. There are more options than "keep Kessel and keep everyone" and "trade Kessel and keep everyone."

Who can we trade him for to make the playoffs? We're trading a top line winger and the best we can get back is a top line winger. We can also get a second line centre for him since nobody in their right minds is giving us a #1 centre for a #1 winger.

We can get a top 10 pick for him (what we already have this season - and nobody seems very high on it), nobody is giving us a top 3 pick in a year with McDavid.

You either want to trade Kessel (literally our only game breaker) for a top 10 pick, which over 60% of the time turns into a failure and 90% of the time turns out worse than Kessel, or you want to trade him for players worse than him.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Only in Toronto would people actually try to discredit scoring 80 points. Its actually hilarious, if not embarrassing by association.

I laughed at the people that used to attack Sundin and I'm laughing now.

The dishonesty is amazing as well. Looking at the standardised GA On/ 60, Kessel performed around the same as Duchene, Marleau and O'Rielly. He out performs Tavares and yet we have these same posters wanting him instead. In other words, he is much as a liability as those players and to acquire someone like Crosby just isn't realistic.

Since shifts are short, the +/- as a standalone is just too luck driven. We already know that Kessel's minutes were tougher and he spent a good amount of time in the defensive zone as well. In other words, the top line was not sheltered from offensive threats and this explains the numbers.

Saying that, I'd argue that Bozak and JVR are more of a missing link on that line. The top line's possessions numbers would improve if JVR didn't take shifts off and Bozak can start playing less of a perimeter game. Nonetheless, our other lines were pretty horrid and definitely needs changes so it's probably not necessarily fair to solely blame the top line for our poor performance.

 

[Trapper]

Phil Kessel is not the only part of this team. This is such a stupid ****ing argument that I've gone through dozens of times. Stop making this argument.

Stamkos isn't leading anybody to a playoff win, neither is Tavares, neither has Duchene.

Add more players to your elite winger. There are more options than "keep Kessel and keep everyone" and "trade Kessel and keep everyone."

Who can we trade him for to make the playoffs? We're trading a top line winger and the best we can get back is a top line winger. We can also get a second line centre for him since nobody in their right minds is giving us a #1 centre for a #1 winger.

We can get a top 10 pick for him (what we already have this season - and nobody seems very high on it), nobody is giving us a top 3 pick in a year with McDavid.

You either want to trade Kessel (literally our only game breaker) for a top 10 pick, which over 60% of the time turns into a failure and 90% of the time turns out worse than Kessel, or you want to trade him for players worse than him.

Where did the teams have Stamkos,Tavares and Duchene get them? And what position do they all have in common? It took us 5 years to get Kessel some help to become an 8th last team in the league. Where is this get Kessel help coming from and who are you trading?

 

[-DeMo-]

Could have responded to the rest of it.

The argument is: trade Kessel and rebuild. This draws the implication that Kessel is preventing us from a draft-rebuild by making the team better and taking us out of prime drafting position.

Then the same people argue that Kessel is making our team worse (-5, etc.)

If he's making our team worse then he's helping the rebuild along so your "rebuild, trade Kessel" argument is out the window. If he's making our team better (and preventing a rebuild) then why are the same people trying to make him out to be a detriment?

The only logic that follows is a personal dislike of Kessel since both sides of the coin are being argued by the same people while those sides are intrinsically incompatible.

he's not preventing the rebuild aka bottoming out we finished 29th with him, but because he's a flawed player and not a guy who imo will help you win the cup you need to move him anyways at some point, so why not now when his value is at his highest?

Edit: also if were going to rebuild whats the point in keeping kessel if you feel as I do? there's no reason to keep him around if were rebuilding it's not like he's a good leader and can show our prospects how to battle physically or defensively, or show them a great work ethic, and be in great shape to show the kids how hard they need to work to be successful. so what exactly would Kessel bring to a rebuild? our team currently mirror's Kessel as a player because the culture of a team usually follows that of it best player(s).

 

[hotpaws]

Where did the teams have Stamkos,Tavares and Duchene get them? And what position do they all have in common? It took us 5 years to get Kessel some help to become an 8th last team in the league. Where is this get Kessel help coming from and who are you trading?

This is the question they have a hard time answering .

It's funny because no one is saying to dump him for nothing and most are saying you either build the team quickly to take advantage of his prime or trade him if you think it'll take longer so you don't waste his prime years .

I have no idea why some posters are having such a hard time understanding this position .

 

[Milan90]

Where did the teams have Stamkos,Tavares and Duchene get them? And what position do they all have in common? It took us 5 years to get Kessel some help to become an 8th last team in the league. Where is this get Kessel help coming from and who are you trading?

It got them to the same place as us. Would you advocate trading Duchene, Stamkos, Seguin, Hall, Weber, Karlsson, Couture, Skinner, and Tavares? As well as a host of others?

There are plenty of teams with superstars who do win. By your post's tone, it looks like you find great players useless unless their teams win the Cup.

The common denominator for all Cup winning teams is that they're great teams. Their star players aren't preventing them from winning, and neither are ours. Our ****** team composition and our ****** system are preventing is from winning. Not Kessel.

 

[Leafidelity]

he's not preventing the rebuild aka bottoming out we finished 29th with him, but because he's a flawed player and not a guy who imo will help you win the cup you need to move him anyways at some point, so why not now when his value is at his highest?

So then you think it's in the best interest of the Islanders to trade Tavares, as he's a "flawed player"?

 

[Milan90]

This is the question they have a hard time answering .

It's funny because no one is saying to dump him for nothing and most are saying you either build the team quickly to take advantage of his prime or trade him if you think it'll take longer so you don't waste his prime years .

I have no idea why some posters are having such a hard time understanding this position .

Build the team how? There are just as many teams who have won without having high picks as there are teams that have won with high picks. Why do we need to have high picks to win?

You're asking me where to get help for Kessel from but you're not answering what you want for Kessel.

I'd trade him for a clear cut #1 centre but we're not getting that. Look at teams who have had top-5 picks that haven't had team success. Those teams drafted #1 centres and nothing has happened.

The draft is a crap shoot most of the time and there are more high draft failures than winners.

So either we can trade for a set of worse players and hope it works out, which rarely happens. Or we can trade him for a high draft pick (probably getting somewhere in the 5-10 area), and most likely get nothing in return.

 

[Trapper]

It got them to the same place as us. Would you advocate trading Duchene, Stamkos, Seguin, Hall, Weber, Karlsson, Couture, Skinner, and Tavares? As well as a host of others?

There are plenty of teams with superstars who do win. By your post's tone, it looks like you find great players useless unless their teams win the Cup.

The common denominator for all Cup winning teams is that they're great teams. Their star players aren't preventing them from winning, and neither are ours. Our ****** team composition and our ****** system are preventing is from winning. Not Kessel.

All those players you mentioned are 5 years younger than Kessel. If Kessel was 21 then no. He's going to be 27 in October and what have we accomplished? Do I find great players useless unless they win the Cup? Last time I checked you have to make the playoffs more than once in 8 years before you have a chance to lose it. The common denominator for winning teams is they built a solid core. So you are fine with this core?

 

[Kelly]

Yup, lets compare a HHOF, 2-way, PPG center with size and leadership with a goal scoring PPG winger who lacks size and leadership. I mean, a player like Sundin you can actually build around just like you can build around Kopitar. But players like Kessel, Gaborik, Palffy, Cammalleri etc will not bring you success if they are the main guys.

Just because Toronto failed to surround Sundin with the talent needed to win the cup does not take away that the most successful teams are built around centers, and defenders and even goalies. But few, if any team, is built around a winger and have success. Calgary with Iginla perhaps? But he brought leadership, 2-way play and a lot of other stuff to the ice every game along with elite goalscoring.

Patty Kane, Bobby Hull, Brett Hull, Guy Lafleur, Mike Bossy, Teemu Selanne... Obviously they don't all play the same style Kessel does, and not all of them were the main guys. But all these players were great goalscorers who played the wing, and their teams had success. You're right in saying Toronto is failing to surround Kessel with the talent he needs, is that Kessels fault, though? **** no.

 

[Milan90]

All those players you mentioned are 5 years younger than Kessel. If Kessel was 21 then no. He's going to be 27 in October and what have we accomplished? Do I find great players useless unless they win the Cup? Last time I checked you have to make the playoffs more than once in 8 years before you have a chance to lose it. The common denominator for winning teams is they built a solid core. So you are fine with this core?

I'm completely fine with Kessel and JVR at forward. I have high hopes for Kadri and unlike 70% of the vocal fans here, I haven't given up on him after one full season of play.

Again, who do you want for Kessel? Or rather, what do you want? A 1st line winger? A 2nd line centre + A 2nd line winger? Draft picks?

 

[-DeMo-]

So then you think it's in the best interest of the Islanders to trade Tavares, as he's a "flawed player"?

Tavares can help you win in more ways then just offense, unlike kessel who btw is not as good offensively as Tavares. Tavares can matchup physically and doesn't avoid contact like Kessel. he also has a great work ethic on and off the ice, which has been questioned in Kessel. there both terribly defensively and need to be better for sure, but Tavares overall brings a lot more to the game then Kessel does.

 

[Milan90]

Terrible defensively but can help win in more ways than just offense? I know Tavares is a solid goaltender but I wouldn't say that's a main strength.

 

[Trapper]

I'm completely fine with Kessel and JVR at forward. I have high hopes for Kadri and unlike 70% of the vocal fans here, I haven't given up on him after one full season of play.

Again, who do you want for Kessel? Or rather, what do you want? A 1st line winger? A 2nd line centre + A 2nd line winger? Draft picks?

I'd have to hear the offer for Kessel. He would however be available for the best package. Did anyone who said trade Kessel say trade him for Vernon Fiddler. You are the ones saying we can't move an elite PPG winger just get him some help. But you seem to think we would get no help if we traded him. What's your return value?

 

[Trapper]

Patty Kane, Bobby Hull, Brett Hull, Guy Lafleur, Mike Bossy, Teemu Selanne... Obviously they don't all play the same style Kessel does, and not all of them were the main guys. But all these players were great goalscorers who played the wing, and their teams had success. You're right in saying Toronto is failing to surround Kessel with the talent he needs, is that Kessels fault, though? **** no.

It's not Kessel's fault we built a rotten core. But it is our fault if we don't build a proper core by exploring every opportunity Kessel trade included.

 

[Milan90]

I'd have to hear the offer for Kessel. He would however be available for the best package. Did anyone who said trade Kessel say trade him for Vernon Fiddler. You are the ones saying we can't move an elite PPG winger just get him some help. But you seem to think we would get no help if we traded him. What's your return value?

The return value for Kessel, IMO is:

First line winger (worse production)
Third line player

Or

Second line Centre
Second line Winger
Third line Player or 3rd/4th round pick

Or

First round top 10 pick

None of which I'd rather have than Kessel.

 

[Trapper]

Terrible defensively but can help win in more ways than just offense? I know Tavares is a solid goaltender but I wouldn't say that's a main strength.

Do you think Tavares stays in 5 years when he's a UFA and his team still hasn't made the playoffs? He will be 27. Do you think they would trade him if they know he will walk because the team is not good? Or will they sign him for 10 mil/8 years and just add done pieces? Columbus moved Nash at 27 because they were spinning their wheels. Kessel will be 27 and the team is spinning their wheels. For me when a guy you've had for 5+ years reached the age of 27-28 and you've had zero success, it's time to look at a new core.

 

[Milan90]

Do you think Tavares stays in 5 years when he's a UFA and his team still hasn't made the playoffs? He will be 27. Do you think they would trade him if they know he will walk because the team is not good? Or will they sign him for 10 mil/8 years and just add done pieces? Columbus moved Nash at 27 because they were spinning their wheels. Kessel will be 27 and the team is spinning their wheels. For me when a guy you've had for 5+ years reached the age of 27-28 and you've had zero success, it's time to look at a new core.

Tavares is 24 this year IIRC. So he'll be 29. I think if in 2 years his contract is up, and they make the playoffs on the back of a PPG season for him, he signs an extension.

 

[Trapper]

The return value for Kessel, IMO is:

First line winger (worse production)
Third line player

Or

Second line Centre
Second line Winger
Third line Player or 3rd/4th round pick

Or

First round top 10 pick

None of which I'd rather have than Kessel.

If Florida offered me 1st overall 2014,Kulikov(14th overall) and Shore(44th overall), goodbye Kessel.
That would be my return.