socko
Registered User
Shanahan much like Larry Murphy and Ray Sheppard were perfect in Detroit. They were all high skill guys that were really crappy skaters. Detroit was able to use their talent and at the same time mask their skating limitations.
News Article: Siegel: Kessel Shoulders Burden Of Blame For Leafs Collapse
- Thread starter Mystifo
- Start date
Shanahan much like Larry Murphy and Ray Sheppard were perfect in Detroit. They were all high skill guys that were really crappy skaters. Detroit was able to use their talent and at the same time mask their skating limitations.
Leafidelity
Best Sport/Worst League
And here's a nice little quote from one dimensional Brett Hull on Shanahan (Link)
That might factor into things down the road.
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Nobody on our team had over 50% of their starts in the offensive zone because we were one of the worst possession teams in the history of the NHL.
In terms of relative corsi, Phil was fine and it's not like his GA On/ 60 was disastrous. Much of his performance has a LOT to do with the coaching style. Look at it this way. Even with low OZone starts, his GA On/ 60 was less than John Tavares and around the same as Duchene or Marleau.
Mess
Global Moderator
How do you get offensive zone starts without puck possession?
Leafs are rush team not a possession team and that is already a big part of the problem.
Nobody is like Kessel blasting up the ice like a rocket ship and then firing long range missiles at the goalie only to give puck possession back to the opponents immediately.
Kessel is also small, non physical, soft on the puck and prefers to avoid contact so he has no board, zone or puck possession or recapture skills on the forecheck to regain puck possession in the offensive zone. Kessel's lack of offensive zone starts is because of Kessel himself.
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Mess, I would like to nominate you as the face of Leafs Nation, if you don't mind. Leafs Nation needs a voice and a spot on the board, we are the disgruntled shareholder's (bagholders) after all.
ha second this,
I've given up trying to discuss/argue these points but Mess amazingly keeps going and stays on point.
please add poor faceoff % Cs for a poor defensive team contributing to the possession issue
Mess
Global Moderator
I'm hoping Shanahan is voice of reason to the board and is able to read and recognize the teams and player strengths and weakness and make the right decisions going forward to help turn our fan suffering around.
I'm pretty sure if fans can recognize Leaf problems that Leafs management can as well.
So, if you shop at Sobey's or Loblaws for your groceries every week, do you consider yourself a shareholder of those companies too?
You are a customer of MLSE and nothing more. And your best bet for exerting influence as a customer is to simply stop buying. But this concept that fans are somehow shareholders in the team has to be one of the most laughable things I have ever heard. It sounds like some lame attempt to justify the money spent on an entertainment product.
What we should have here is a countdown to pre-season, with a Shanahan culture change tracker and a poll predictor to gauge how many people think he will be voice of reason today, and how many people believe he has been the voice of reason come pre-season.
My vote is change, but, change in the way that will anger us all... i.e. Who stays? Nonis, Carlyle, Kessel, Phaneuf. Who goes? Kadri, Gardiner. Whose been added? Nobody we like.
Technically I am because I have a long term investment in BCE, however, I will digress because what you say is true.. Trust me, the concept is not lost on the die hard fans because either the Leafs are an addiction to us, or, we just have very high values placed on loyalty. And, the argument that we would be more loyal if we stopped buying is unrealistic given the size of our market and the fact we don't believe others will follow, and, we don't believe it will make a difference.. same with voting for many. We are more devout than Christians to the Catholic church, but are customers in the same way.
Mess
Global Moderator
I cheer for the name on the front of the jersey not the name on the back and have been doing that since the 1960's. I have no real emotional attachment to individual players as I want what is best for the team first and foremost.
If Shanny makes tough decisions moving named players out, particularly those with known flaws, then I am likely going to be more happy with the job Shanny is doing during his repair and rebuild then some fans that are more attached to certain players that wear the Leaf jersey in team support, but have those players names on their own backs.
Kessel taking the blame and responsibility for the collapse is good, because then it shouldn't come as a surprise to him, if he is traded to avoid any more of those embarrassing things in the future. Those won't be tears of disappointment, but rather joy in my eyes if players like Kessel are among those Shanny sends packing, if he can get a good return and moves the team forward even if that means taking a few steps back by obtaining futures in return.
I really looking forward seeing how he plans on changing the team identity and the losing culture into a winning one hopefully.
johnny_rudeboy
Registered User
I cheer for the name on the front of the jersey not the name on the back and have been doing that since the 1960's. I have no real emotional attachment to individual players as I want what is best for the team first and foremost.
If Shanny makes tough decisions moving named players out, particularly those with known flaws, then I am likely going to be more happy with the job Shanny is doing during his repair and rebuild then some fans that are more attached to certain players that wear the Leaf jersey in team support, but have those players names on their own backs.
Kessel taking the blame and responsibility for the collapse is good, because then it shouldn't come as a surprise to him, if he is traded to avoid any more of those embarrassing things in the future. Those won't be tears of disappointment, but rather joy in my eyes if players like Kessel are among those Shanny sends packing, if he can get a good return and moves the team forward even if that means taking a few steps back by obtaining futures in return.
I really looking forward seeing how he plans on changing the team identity and the losing culture into a winning one hopefully.
But, but 37 goalzzzzzzz!!! How do U replace DAT?!?
I hope Shanahan have the same view as youI cheer for the name on the front of the jersey not the name on the back and have been doing that since the 1960's. I have no real emotional attachment to individual players as I want what is best for the team first and foremost.
If Shanny makes tough decisions moving named players out, particularly those with known flaws, then I am likely going to be more happy with the job Shanny is doing during his repair and rebuild then some fans that are more attached to certain players that wear the Leaf jersey in team support, but have those players names on their own backs.
Kessel taking the blame and responsibility for the collapse is good, because then it shouldn't come as a surprise to him, if he is traded to avoid any more of those embarrassing things in the future. Those won't be tears of disappointment, but rather joy in my eyes if players like Kessel are among those Shanny sends packing, if he can get a good return and moves the team forward even if that means taking a few steps back by obtaining futures in return.
I really looking forward seeing how he plans on changing the team identity and the losing culture into a winning one hopefully.
Yes fingers crossed... I am still very pessimistic that he will have the vision and and capacity to do so... I'm not questioning his intentions or courage, but we know little of his dedication and strength in this type of role, especially considering he is green and likely out of his element, surrounded by complacent, inept fatheads
But, but 37 goalzzzzzzz!!! How do U replace DAT?!?
It's easy, just sign two Mason Raymonds!
johnny_rudeboy
Registered User
ACC1224
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johnny_rudeboy
Registered User
Perhaps not as much when in Columbus as now when he is in NY. But he never been good defensively and with that body and that talent he sure take the easy decisions around net sometimes. I think Nash have been very over hyped of the years.
ACC1224
Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
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- 74,266
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I agree, he seems to have regressed a bit.
Would we expect a better return for Kessel than Columbus got for Nash?
johnny_rudeboy
Registered User
I think so. Nash wanted out and that brings the price down a bit. Kessel would also be a year younger when he would get traded. And Kessel is better offensively.
Mess
Global Moderator
But, but 37 goalzzzzzzz!!! How do U replace DAT?!?
Team goals >> Individual goals & Every goal counts the same in the team total.
-- The 2007-08 Leafs team (last year of Sundin) scored 231 goals for. Sundin 74 games - 32 goals 46 assists 78 points. (Leading scorer and >ppg) .. Leafs finish with 83 points 7th last overall.
-- The 2008-09 Leafs team (minus Sundin, & Tucker & McCabe) scored 250 goals for (+19 goal improvement) 81 points 7th last.
Leafs removed their top players as part of "Clearing the Slate" replaced them with no one individual like Sundin and the team goals went up. Hagman, Stempniak, Grabovski etc produced more by committee then individual players alone. Heck Antropov and Moore were traded for draft picks at the deadline and the team still scored +19 goals.
- 2009-10 trade for Kessel instant 30 goals, trade Stajan, Hagman for Phaneuf etc etc Leafs score 214 goals for (-36 goals as part of so called improvement) Team 74 points 2nd last.. What a surprise you lost 36 goals and your team success went down, shocker.
Years: 2010-11 (218 GF), 2011-12 (231 goals), 2012-13 (lockout 145 GF)
Flash forward +6 years of rebuilding now to 2013-14 (Leafs with Kessel 37 goals 80 points) Leafs score 231 goals for. The same number of goals that original team in 2007-08 recorded of 231.
* The only team without Sundin or Kessel 2008-09 (year 1 of the rebuild) scored the most goals 250 goals for then all the other teams with them. *
How we going replace Kessel 37 goals you ask?
johnny_rudeboy
Registered User
So I understand team goals >> individual goals .. & Every goal counts
The 2007-08 Leafs team (last year of Sundin) scored 231 goals for.
Sundin 74 games - 32 goals 46 assists 78 points. (Leading scorer and >ppg) .. Leafs finish with 83 points 7th last overall.
The 2008-09 Leafs team (minus Sundin, & Tucker & McCabe) scored
250 goals for (+19 goal improvement) 81 points 7th last.
Leafs removed their top players as part of "Clearing the Slate" replaced them with no one individual like Sundin and the team goals went up. Hagman, Stempniak, Grabovski etc produced more by committee then individual players alone. Heck Antropov and Moore were traded for draft picks at the deadline and the team still scored +19 goals.
2009-10 trade for Kessel 30 goals, trade Stajan, Hagman for Phaneuf etc Leafs score 214 goals for (-36 goals as part of so called improvement) Team 74 points 2nd last.. What a surprise you lost 36 goals and your team success went down, shocker.
2010-11 (218 GF), 2011-12 (231 goals), 2012-13 (lockout 145 GF)
Flash forward +6 years of rebuilding now to 2013-14 (Leafs with Kessel 37 goals 80 points) Leafs score 231 goals for. The same number of goals that original team in 2007-08 recorded.
* The only team without Sundin or Kessel 2008-09 (year 1 of the rebuild) scored the most goals 250 goals for then all the other teams with them. *
How we going replace Kessel 37 goals you ask?
Yeah I remember that team that scored 250 goals. So many cheaters it was insane. Not much better now really. Padded stats imo. Rather score less goals but have a team who's player work hard to prevent the other team from scoring.
