Sidney Crosby surpassing Alexander Ovechkin in career points watch (UPD: Ovechkin ahead by 6)

[Midnight Judges]

Well since you are here, maybe you can clear up what you are trying to say here then?

Obviously Ovechkin isn't the 12th best playmaker to play in the NHL from 2005 to 2018, right?

And what is the reference to Crosby about anyways, you have claimed in other posts that he is very average at best defensively.

He has been 7 times since 2009-2010 been in the selke voting only missed in his 41 and 22 games played seasons since then.

I'm pretty sure he ranks well better than 200th since then without even looking.

So what. There are all sorts of Canadian homer idiots among the voters and they are willing to push the limits of reason for Crosby - as I have clearly demonstrated with Crosby getting several Lady Byng "sportsmanship" award votes almost immediately after doing this:



and this:

 

[Midnight Judges]

Well since you are here, maybe you can clear up what you are trying to say here then?

Obviously Ovechkin isn't the 12th best playmaker to play in the NHL from 2005 to 2018, right?

Wherever he ranks, he's obviously very good at playmaking, and the folks calling Ovechkin one dimensional have always been either liars or not too smart about the game.

 

[3074326]

Wherever he ranks, he's obviously very good at playmaking, and the folks calling Ovechkin one dimensional have always been either liars or not too smart about the game.

And you calling people "liars" over something this trivial is just as absurd.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin is 11th in assists since the lockout among all players.

Sidney Crosby is 596th in penalty kill minutes since the lockout among all players.

And this is representative to Ovechkin's playmaking ability vs Crosby's defensive abilities.

Crosby is NOT a shutdown C. Never has been, never will be. He simply does not have the tools. And he's not asked to do that anyway.

 

[Midnight Judges]

And you calling people "liars" over something this trivial is just as absurd.

If it's so trivial, why are so many people willing to risk their integrity in order to lie about it?

Go to the history forum. These specific falsehoods are rampant.

 

[wetcoast]

So what. There are all sorts of Canadian homer idiots among the voters and they are willing to push the limits of reason for Crosby - as I have clearly demonstrated with Crosby getting several Lady Byng "sportsmanship" award votes almost immediately after doing this:



and this:

Neither of those incidents relate at all to your argument though right?

Although to be fair intimidation might help the case for Crosby defensively.

 

[3074326]

If it's so trivial, why are so many people willing to risk their integrity in order to lie about it?

Go to the history forum. These specific falsehoods are rampant.

They're opinions. Stop treating them as facts. You're not the expert. Nobody here is.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Neither of those incidents relate at all to your argument though right?

They undermine yours. You appealed to an authority. I demonstrated the bias of that authority.

 

[wetcoast]

And this is representative to Ovechkin's playmaking ability vs Crosby's defensive abilities.

Crosby is NOT a shutdown C. Never has been, never will be. He simply does not have the tools. And he's not asked to do that anyway.

Zetterberg and Datsyuk both didn't play very much on the PK, they must be pretty average defensively as well right?

Crosby could very well be a shutdown center if he wanted to by why would a perennial top 10 scorer in the league over 14 seasons be used in a shutdown role?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby could very well be a shutdown center if he wanted to...

lol he's done a helluva job of shutting down Ovechkin in the payoffs.

Are you suggesting he simply doesn't want to shut down opposing players? That seems like an awfully dumb strategy.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

crosby's "lack" of durability is just more proof of how superior he is with 2 more cups than ovi

 

[wetcoast]

They undermine yours. You appealed to an authority. I demonstrated the bias of that authority.

You already dismiss subjective eye accounts of Sid's 2 way play and his proficiency in the face off circle so I went with Selke votes.

There is plenty of "evidence " of Crosby's 200 foot game that has already been listed in other posts, such as expected plus/minus, which takes into account team strength, in which crosby does very well all time.

and which you simply ignore as part of the picture.

Those same voters also vote on Ovechkin post season awards so I really hope you stop defending Ovechkin's Hart trophy in 201202103 since it's only an appeal to authority, right?

 

[wetcoast]

Wherever he ranks, he's obviously very good at playmaking, and the folks calling Ovechkin one dimensional have always been either liars or not too smart about the game.

Funny that you can rank Crosby as not being in the top 200 players defensively, then give no details about that and then only give a general detail or sideshow to where Ovechkin ranks as a playmaker.

I'll respond by posting the top assist seasons since 2005-2006 to illustrate then.
and remember this accounts for only full seasons, the 2012-2013 shortened season won't show up here or players with any significant time missed.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Ovechkin shows up 62,127, 128,138, 273, 307......then tied for 642nd

I'll go out on a real limb here and say that he isn't in the top 100 playmakers since 2005-2006, no appeal to authority required.

 

[Novak Djokovic]

lol he's done a helluva job of shutting down Ovechkin in the payoffs.

2016 playoffs: Ovechkin had 2 ES points against the Pens in 6 games. Unless you want him shutting down Ovechkin while short handed too, I think that's OK.

2017 playoffs: Ovechkin had 3 ES points against the Pens in 7 games.

2018 playoffs: 6 ES points in 6 games.

So besides last year, not bad at all. Every time I wonder why I argue with you, but then I fall into this trap.

 

[wetcoast]

If it's so trivial, why are so many people willing to risk their integrity in order to lie about it?

Go to the history forum. These specific falsehoods are rampant.

Actually they aren't, a couple of guys mentioned shoot only mentality when it was obvious they meant shoot first mentality much like Esposito and both Hull's.

To call a couple of guys, "so many people" isn't true at all.

 

[wetcoast]

lol he's done a helluva job of shutting down Ovechkin in the payoffs.

Are you suggesting he simply doesn't want to shut down opposing players? That seems like an awfully dumb strategy.

The adjusted expected plus minus were lost in the transition form this site form the last one, I saw them recently in another thread in the history section and crosby does very well in it, which goes to his very good defensive play.

No he isn't Patrice Bergeron but then again the latter isn't a perianal top 10 scoring player over his entire 14 years in the NHL.

 

[Randyne]

I'll respond by posting the top assist seasons since 2005-2006 to illustrate then.
Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

How about excluding PPAs and showing EVAs, everyone knows how much Crosby is piling up numbers with one of the top 3 player of this generation on PP (Malkin). Without PPAs Sid's 84 assists reduces more than a half. EVAs tells more about playmaking and Ovechkin's best record is equal to Crosby's second best. And Crosby's best result is not even on top20

 

[Midnight Judges]

Zetterberg and Datsyuk both didn't play very much on the PK, they must be pretty average defensively as well right?

Zetterberg was a shutdown C (as Crosby experienced first hand in the finals), and he played 100% more on the PK relative to Crosby.

 

[Khomutov]

Comparing him to 07-10 OV, I think the biggest difference is his lack of puck control. His ability to make a pass is somewhat similar now. But he's not handling the puck nearly as much as he did back at his peak.

I agree. He still can dangle and has good hands. But can not doing this at high speed like 10 years ago.

 

[wetcoast]

Zetterberg was a shutdown C (as Crosby experienced first hand in the finals), and he played 100% more on the PK relative to Crosby.

Zetterberg played more on the PK than sid over their careers yes as he was on the ice for 160 Short handed goals against in 1082 games played.

Crosby has been on the ice for 41 in 905

Datysuk was on for 88 in 953 games played.

Zetterberg was 12th in Selke in 2010-2011 voting despite being 9th in PK time among Detroit forwards that year.

Must be more of that Canadian bias nonsense you were referring to upthread?

Or how about Datsyuk wining 3 consecutive Selke awards despite being on the ice for only 18, 14 and 6 PK goals in those 3 years.

Obviously your Crosby isn't very good defensively because of his few minutes on the PK doesn't actually stand up to any scrutiny.

 

[filinski77]

Thanks for the reply. There is a lot that I agree with but bit more stuff I disagree with.

There's been a clear change in OV's game compared to his peak years and I remain the opinion that the biggest change has been his play with the puck. I challenge you to find 5 Caps fans who disagree with that. He's adapted his game remarkably and still has that above average playmaking ability. But he's not the same player he used to be. I base this on the games I've watched him and the analysis from Caps fans. There's no certain way of proving either of us right or wrong. I know for a fact, that the vast majority of Ovechkin/Caps fan would agree with me and not with you. However, it doesn't mean that you're 100% wrong. It just means that the majority of people who have watched OV's game during his career have similar feelings about the transformation as I do.

As a caps fan myself, my stance on this would be that Ovi is just as good of a passer now as he ever has been, maybe even better because he has more experience, but his ability to control the puck and cycle around the offensive zone, or to carry the puck through the neutral zone and make a play, is way worse than it was at his peak.

 

[wetcoast]

How about excluding PPAs and showing EVAs, everyone knows how much Crosby is piling up numbers with one of the top 3 player of this generation on PP (Malkin). Without PPAs Sid's 84 assists reduces more than a half. EVAs tells more about playmaking and Ovechkin's best record is equal to Crosby's second best. And Crosby's best result is not even on top20

Sure we can do that but lets do it for this season as well while we are at it right?

2006-2007 Crosby leads the NHL in points with 79-36-84-120 and tops with 13-48-61 on the PP

Malkin is 18th in points with 78-33-52-85 and 12th in PP points with 16-24-40.

So yes Crosby had 21 more PP points than Malkin, how exactly does this hurt his case?

And this is in the one cherry picked season where PP scoring was up quite a bit

This season Crosby is 13th in points with a 41-20-34-54 line and 8th in ESP with 41.

Ovechkin by example is 22nd in scoring with a 43-32-17-49 line and is 17th in ESP this season with 36.

Over the course of their careers this is how they fare in ESP scoring

1. Crosby 737 plus 8 shorthanded points
2. Ovechkin 717 plus 5 shorthanded points

And since you wanted to bring some context to Crosby's 2006-2007 season lets do so for their careers now

Crosby has 20 more even strength points in 141 less games than Ovechkin.

Ovechkin has relied more on the PP than Crosby has throughout their careers.

 

[wetcoast]

As a caps fan myself, my stance on this would be that Ovi is just as good of a passer now as he ever has been, maybe even better because he has more experience, but his ability to control the puck and cycle around the offensive zone, or to carry the puck through the neutral zone and make a play, is way worse than it was at his peak.

Whatever the reason Ovechkin is only tied for 116th overall in assists this year.

since his last top 10 finish of 6th in 10-11 when he had 53 assists, he has been 58th in assists from 2011-2012 till today.

In ESA he is a mere 76th with 140 Even strength assist during that time right between 2 all time greats

75 David Backes 140
76 Ovechkin 140
77. Brandon Dubinsky 139

Also at the rate he is going he will finish the season in the 90's for the last 8 years

Since Midnight Judges brought up his 11th overall in assists since 2005-2006 lets look and see how he was in his previous and best 6 year stretch 2005-2006 to 2010-2011 he was 7th.

So that part of his game has been completely night and day between the 2 time periods.

 

[Midnight Judges]

2016 playoffs: Ovechkin had 2 ES points against the Pens in 6 games. Unless you want him shutting down Ovechkin while short handed too, I think that's OK.

2017 playoffs: Ovechkin had 3 ES points against the Pens in 7 games.

2018 playoffs: 6 ES points in 6 games.

So besides last year, not bad at all. Every time I wonder why I argue with you, but then I fall into this trap.

Did 2009 not happen? 9 ES points for Ovie. So 21 ES points in 26 games against Crosby's Pens. That's well over Ovechkin's career average for ES points.

 

[Randyne]

Ovechkin has relied more on the PP than Crosby has throughout their careers.

And yet Ovechkin has two EVP records on top 10 above Sid.