Should the Wings prioritize being a big "hard to play against" team?

[jkutswings]

IMO going grit is the least difficult way to get into the playoffs because it tends to raise the floor of a team, while also lowering its ceiling.

We have officially found common ground.

 

[Shaman464]

Last year he avoided the safe bet(s) and went with a higher upside project. And people hated that pick and have complained about it every day for a year.

It's never ever as simple as you make it. The problem with Cholo is a combination of the risk coupled with the fact there were higher upside, less risky players available at the original drafting spot they had before unloading Datsyuk. And in the middle of the draft, making that choice tends to be more the norm then the exception anyway. And Detroit passed this year on at least 3 guys that have more potential to be what they need, for a guy who has little to no chance of being anything but a role player.

 

[Pavels Dog]

It's never ever as simple as you make it. The problem with Cholo is a combination of the risk coupled with the fact there were higher upside, less risky players available at the original drafting spot they had before unloading Datsyuk. And in the middle of the draft, making that choice tends to be more the norm then the exception anyway. And Detroit passed this year on at least 3 guys that have more potential to be what they need, for a guy who has little to no chance of being anything but a role player.

So.. you think they're just morons? One year they draft the low floor, low ceiling guy, the next an okay floor, low ceiling guy?

If you think they're just making the worst possible decisions, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. All we can do when it comes to the draft is wait and see. I just don't think they're trying to pick the "safe" guys.

 

[Shaman464]

So.. you think they're just morons? One year they draft the low floor, low ceiling guy, the next an okay floor, low ceiling guy?

If you think they're just making the worst possible decisions, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. All we can do when it comes to the draft is wait and see. I just don't think they're trying to pick the "safe" guys.

They have all but said they are. They want players who will make the NHL quickly. At 9 that means going for the guys which are closer to their floor, but don't have a high ceiling. That's exactly what they did this year, they took a kid with a body that will work in the NHL very quickly, but whose ceiling is no where near elite.

And are they morons? No. I think they are scared, which can make people do dumb things. And they have done some pretty dumb things recently.

 

[sepster]

Who is saying these 5'10 skilled guys are actually more effective hockey players than the big guys Detroit is drafting?

What have Nyquist and Tatar ever won for Detroit? If anything they disappear in the playoffs. Its not 5'10 4th round skill that wins. Its top line, elite talent. The wings havent picked high enough to get that, so theyre building a team of tough guys to play against. Once these guys hit their stride, hopefully Detroit has bottomed out and drafte some elite players. I'm sure if the wings drafted in the top 5 in a great draft, they wouldnt pass on Mitch Marner, but at number 9 in this years draft they werent getting that level of skilled player

I think a lot of people should just be happy that it seems the wings finally have a direction to go in the rebuild. Add some really high end skill with a couple top 5 picks and this team will beat you with skill and beat you up

I agree. It's easy to build a smaller, skill team when you have Crosby, Malkin, Toews and Kane to build around. The Wings aren't getting one of those types of players, let alone multiple ones, anytime soon.

In the absence of that, its easier to build a competitive team by getting bigger and tougher. As good as Getzlaf, Perry, Bergeron and Kopitar are, they aren't in the same class of player, so build a team around them that just pushes opponents out of the way.

Works for me. And this isn't anything new. The '97 & '98 Wings were big, tough teams. Shanahan, Draper and Yzerman all talked about it this past Winter Classic. Essentially all saying, that everyone wants to remember the skill and style of play and the Russian Five and such, but those were, "the toughest, meanest teams I (Shanahan) have ever played on."

Mixing size with talent can, and does, work.

 

[Red Stanley]

I brought this up earlier but like 2 out of 20 people from this board who've been following the scouting reports and actually doing their own scouting had Rasmussen in the top 15. With our highest pick in decades the choice threw the majority a curve ball (NHL commentators included). And no there wouldn't be crying over Vilardi. It was an odd draft pick that's eliciting scrutiny, big deal.

As for the negativity I think the almost forced responses from the handful of members who will in every possible instance find a way to rationalize Holland's decision making are as equally over-the-top. There seems to be this desperate need from some to defend the team at all costs and without reason. I'm not sure if it's playing devil's advocate or what. The Wings are at our lowest place in 30 years there's no way to paint a happy smile. It's painful as fans and it's bound to bring exaggerated responses. Just like our politics in the west there is a polarizing of groups who are emotional about their beliefs. Expressing differing viewpoints doesn't have to be a problem. I think it's a healthy process that is one step to finding truth. We can agree that for whatever reason the Wings are not contending the next couple years. We're in a rough patch compared to how high and revered the Wings have been which is ok. I say best is to keep respect because we are all friends here with a similar passion for the team.

Back on topic: Really engaging discussion. I wouldn't judge one draft as evidence of a concrete direction the Wings are moving towards. Missing the playoffs it may be a touch of frustration that factored into the lot of over-sized prospects gathered up. Witnessing Frk or Pulkkinen, and in their own way Gus and Tats unable to take a next step may be part of the logic. G. Smith and Svech were mentioned but I'd have to watch next year to conclude that wow Detroit is in a single-minded fashion building a team of freakish giants.

I agree with others who say they certainly hope not; an attempt to build a winning team based on the criteria of size is bound to fail. A few years ago LA and Boston defined the term "heavy hockey" but it wasn't just their size it was physical play and an aggressive in-your-face attitude that changed the face of the game. Depth guys like Lucic, Williams, Brown, King, Thorton, Stoll bought into the punishing style of checking but it was Kopitar, Carter, Bergeron and Chara who were not just big but with their skill played larger than life. Also you can't forget figures like Marchand, Gaborik, or Martinez- smaller players who were key to championship runs.

Sort of an off-beat opinion but I sometimes think Anaheim and St.Louis both modeled themselves to take on the Kings but it may have been their undoing. St. Louis is just so massive in size. They did finally solve the Hawks last season but it was straight up the skill and speed of SJ that wiped them out. This year vs. Nashville they looked slow compared. IF the Wings have some one-dimensional vision about building a larger sized team to contend someday they are more confused than anyone claims.

To echo what others said (which is pretty much all I do, haha) drafting a team is about balance. "Needs" may be something that is addressed through free-agency, trades, or simply prospects developing in ways not expected. How well can you plan for a team 5 years down the road? Personality should be a big part of the choice but scoring and playmaking have to be the first consideration no matter size or handedness. I can't help but think of small guys like Drouin, Marner, Gudreau, Krug, Hickey, Jensen, Point, etc. and what a force they are on the ice.

I love the comment about Guentzal and Arvidsson- two of the hardest to play against so true! Not enough credit is given to Malkin though...he may be the meanest most determined player in the world.

Anybody who likes/doesn't mind/isn't freaking out over the Rasmussen pick has given specific hockey-related reasoning as to why that has nothing to do with Holland, being a blind homer, or wanting to antagonize others. If anything, the opposite of what you said is true, though, thankfully, it's mostly people just discussing pros and cons. It's perfectly fine to see a wide range of opinions since the subject itself lends itself to that.

 

[Red Stanley]

I agree. It's easy to build a smaller, skill team when you have Crosby, Malkin, Toews and Kane to build around. The Wings aren't getting one of those types of players, let alone multiple ones, anytime soon.

In the absence of that, its easier to build a competitive team by getting bigger and tougher. As good as Getzlaf, Perry, Bergeron and Kopitar are, they aren't in the same class of player, so build a team around them that just pushes opponents out of the way.

Works for me. And this isn't anything new. The '97 & '98 Wings were big, tough teams. Shanahan, Draper and Yzerman all talked about it this past Winter Classic. Essentially all saying, that everyone wants to remember the skill and style of play and the Russian Five and such, but those were, "the toughest, meanest teams I (Shanahan) have ever played on."

Mixing size with talent can, and does, work.

Speaking of the Russian Five, as amazing and exciting as they were to watch during the regular season, Bowman broke them up for the playoffs on the grounds that their style wouldn't work in a 7 game series with elevated physical play. The '97 and '98 teams were tough as nails and played very gritty playoff hockey.

 

[RedHawkDown]

It's not like all the other options at 9 were small, skilled players. Vilardi is a big body and has 100x the talent Rasmussen does. We had the option to take a 6'3" 203lb RH center in the mold of Ryan Getzlaf or Anze Kopitar, with top line potential and a pretty high floor (if his skating holds him back from being 1C/2C, Vilardi will at the least be a decent third line scoring center, IMO).

Instead we took Michael Rasmussen.

 

[Pavels Dog]

It's not like all the other options at 9 were small, skilled players. Vilardi is a big body and has 100x the talent Rasmussen does.

While we're on the topic of not exaggerating, Vilardi skates 100x worse than Rasmussen.

 

[RedHawkDown]

While we're on the topic of not exaggerating, Vilardi skates 100x worse than Rasmussen.

Sure it's an obvious exaggeration but my point is that Vilardi wasn't any less 'safe' than Rasmussen yet had a much higher ceiling. I don't see any good reason Rasmussen is a better pick.

 

[HockeyinHD]

It's never ever as simple as you make it. The problem with Cholo is a combination of the risk coupled with the fact there were higher upside, less risky players available at the original drafting spot they had before unloading Datsyuk.

Well, yeah. Think 'Nielsen + Cholo' vs. whoever you wanted.

Then, throw that thought in the garbage because it was a moot point anyway. Detroit wanted to try and they couldn't try with Datsyuk's dead cap money on the books so whether it was Nielsen, or someone else, or two individually cheaper someone elses, they were going to clear and re-spend that 6 mil.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Sure it's an obvious exaggeration but my point is that Vilardi wasn't any less 'safe' than Rasmussen yet had a much higher ceiling. I don't see any good reason Rasmussen is a better pick.

If you had 10 scouts in the room and you looked around and said we all got to watch this kid because he was right across the river. We have seen him for a couple years what do you think... Every single one of your scouts goes that dude is a winger. Well that might change it, I am not saying that happened and I am not saying you still shouldn't have taken Suzuki or Necas at that point. But the Wings were going Center or D heading into the draft. They also said they didn't really like the small D-man anyway. In any event if they didn't grade Vilardi as a center they were probably always passing on him.

It's not like all the other options at 9 were small, skilled players. Vilardi is a big body and has 100x the talent Rasmussen does. We had the option to take a 6'3" 203lb RH center in the mold of Ryan Getzlaf or Anze Kopitar, with top line potential and a pretty high floor (if his skating holds him back from being 1C/2C, Vilardi will at the least be a decent third line scoring center, IMO).

Instead we took Michael Rasmussen.

I think he is a top 6 winger. His floor to me is a third line winger, but I think he will make it as a top 6 winger. If he cannot improve his skating he cannot play center at the NHL level, so his floor isn't a third line center. If he does find those strides than he has huge potential. He certainly landed in the right spot to experiment a while at third line center behind Kopitar and Carter. Time will tell, but that skating issue is real people, you watched him slide as a result. Not just the Wings passed on him. Heck the Rangers drafted a player I had lower on my board than Rasmussen. I think Vilardi ends up being a lot like Stone in Ottawa and that is a very good player.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

If you had 10 scouts in the room and you looked around and said we all got to watch this kid because he was right across the river. We have seen him for a couple years what do you think... Every single one of your scouts goes that dude is a winger. Well that might change it, I am not saying that happened and I am not saying you still shouldn't have taken Suzuki or Necas at that point. But the Wings were going Center or D heading into the draft. They also said they didn't really like the small D-man anyway. In any event if they didn't grade Vilardi as a center they were probably always passing on him.



I think he is a top 6 winger. His floor to me is a third line winger, but I think he will make it as a top 6 winger. If he cannot improve his skating he cannot play center at the NHL level. If he does find those strides than he has huge potential. He certainly landed in the right spot to experiment a while at third line center behind Kopitar and Carter. Time will tell, but that skating issue is real people, you watched him slide as a result. Not just the Wings passed on him. Heck the Rangers drafted a player I had lower on my board than Rasmussen.

The market signaled that he isn't an NHL center. If teams thought he had a well above average chance of playing center in the NHL, he doesn't fall to 12.

 

[Frk It]

If you had 10 scouts in the room and you looked around and said we all got to watch this kid because he was right across the river. We have seen him for a couple years what do you think... Every single one of your scouts goes that dude is a winger. Well that might change it, I am not saying that happened and I am not saying you still shouldn't have taken Suzuki or Necas at that point. But the Wings were going Center or D heading into the draft. They also said they didn't really like the small D-man anyway. In any event if they didn't grade Vilardi as a center they were probably always passing on him.



I think he is a top 6 winger. His floor to me is a third line winger, but I think he will make it as a top 6 winger. If he cannot improve his skating he cannot play center at the NHL level, so his floor isn't a third line center. If he does find those strides than he has huge potential. He certainly landed in the right spot to experiment a while at third line center behind Kopitar and Carter. Time will tell, but that skating issue is real people, you watched him slide as a result. Not just the Wings passed on him. Heck the Rangers drafted a player I had lower on my board than Rasmussen. I think Vilardi ends up being a lot like Stone in Ottawa and that is a very good player.

What was your board? I'd like to see it.

 

[Ezekial]

Heck the Rangers drafted a player I had lower on my board than Rasmussen. I think Vilardi ends up being a lot like Stone in Ottawa and that is a very good player.

Yes!

Lias Andersson at 7 was a huge reach in my mind, I can't believe Michael Rasmussen being drafted a few slots or even where some people had him falling is being talked about more than Lias Andersson being essentially traded up for.

I really like Lias though, but I never saw him as a top ten pick, around 15-16 yes sir. I preferred Rasmussen to him though.

 

[TatarTangle]

Size and strength is one of the main determing factors in the NHL, whether this board wants to acknowledge it or not. Unless, of course, your small player has the skill set of Patty Kane but I'm going to go ahead and bet he doesn't.

If you don't have a plethora of Patty Kanes that can possess the puck at will, the easiest way to ice a competitve team is having a roster of bigger guys that can skate well and establish and maintain a forecheck. Something the Red Wings have been lacking for a couple years.

 

[Shaman464]

Well, yeah. Think 'Nielsen + Cholo' vs. whoever you wanted.

Then, throw that thought in the garbage because it was a moot point anyway. Detroit wanted to try and they couldn't try with Datsyuk's dead cap money on the books so whether it was Nielsen, or someone else, or two individually cheaper someone elses, they were going to clear and re-spend that 6 mil.

So they literally hurt themselves for two drafts by moving down through trading or being just slightly less **** for a year. Literally you're not making this any better for the Wings org here.

 

[ShanahanMan]

I'm so jaded. I've been saying tank it for the last 4 years, but after seeing what they did at the draft, I'm pretty sure if we did end up with a top 3 pick, we'd just trade down for 3 or 4 2nd round picks.

I literally am out of ideas on saving this team.

 

[Red Stanley]

I'm so jaded. I've been saying tank it for the last 4 years, but after seeing what they did at the draft, I'm pretty sure if we did end up with a top 3 pick, we'd just trade down for 3 or 4 2nd round picks.

I literally am out of ideas on saving this team.

It was our last and best hope for peace. It failed. But in the year of the Shadow War, it became something greater: our last, best hope -- for victory.

 

[Winger98]

It was our last and best hope for peace. It failed. But in the year of the Shadow War, it became something greater: our last, best hope -- for victory.

Mollari for GM!

edit: and, of course, his head coach:

 

[Red Stanley]

 

[gretskidoo]

Seems like people that like this pick want us to contend in 2028ish or think it's the 90s.

Hopefully this kid proves everyone, including his defenders(of picking him at 9. He's a fine prospect to have if you ignore draft position.), wrong and isn't just a big middle 6 guy.

Yes!

Lias Andersson at 7 was a huge reach in my mind, I can't believe Michael Rasmussen being drafted a few slots or even where some people had him falling is being talked about more than Lias Andersson being essentially traded up for.

I really like Lias though, but I never saw him as a top ten pick, around 15-16 yes sir. I preferred Rasmussen to him though.

Andersson still has a much higher chance of being a top 6 player in the NHL.

 

[newfy]

Seems like people that like this pick want us to contend in 2028ish or think it's the 90s.

Hopefully this kid proves everyone, including his defenders(of picking him at 9. He's a fine prospect to have if you ignore draft position.), wrong and isn't just a big middle 6 guy.



Andersson still has a much higher chance of being a top 6 player in the NHL.

Just curious, how many times have you watched Rasmussen play? And not youtube highlights after the draft, actual games.

I would bet quite a bit of money you havent, and you likely havent watched Andersson much, if at all, either.

All these people complaining and 90% havent watched him play. All I know is he was on pace for 50 goals in his draft year (Mantha had a circle jerk for that), is a great skater and is absolutely enormous. At 9th overall in a bad draft can you ask for much more than that? Vilardi I like but cant skate and Necas isnt exactly some high upside guy like some people in here are pretending. Hes a solid 2 way player but isnt some electrifying all world talent

 

[sepster]

Speaking of the Russian Five, as amazing and exciting as they were to watch during the regular season, Bowman broke them up for the playoffs on the grounds that their style wouldn't work in a 7 game series with elevated physical play. The '97 and '98 teams were tough as nails and played very gritty playoff hockey.

Correct again.

Sandstrom-Yzerman-McCarty
Brown-Fedorov-Kozlov
Shanahan-Larionov-Lapointe
Maltby-Draper-Kocur

Lots of size and grit throughout those lines.

 

[Fear]

IMO going grit is the least difficult way to get into the playoffs because it tends to raise the floor of a team, while also lowering its ceiling.

I don't buy this, can you give some examples of a team who had no business being a playoff team but got there off of grit?