Should the Wings prioritize being a big "hard to play against" team?

[Dotter]

Who is saying these 5'10 skilled guys are actually more effective hockey players than the big guys Detroit is drafting?

What have Nyquist and Tatar ever won for Detroit? If anything they disappear in the playoffs. Its not 5'10 4th round skill that wins. Its top line, elite talent. The wings havent picked high enough to get that, so theyre building a team of tough guys to play against. Once these guys hit their stride, hopefully Detroit has bottomed out and drafte some elite players. I'm sure if the wings drafted in the top 5 in a great draft, they wouldnt pass on Mitch Marner, but at number 9 in this years draft they werent getting that level of skilled player

I think a lot of people should just be happy that it seems the wings finally have a direction to go in the rebuild. Add some really high end skill with a couple top 5 picks and this team will beat you with skill and beat you up

Seems Wings can find Tatar's and Nyquist's type players in spades. They are easy to get. I think adding big strong players will help them be more effective as it opens up the ice for them. Then Red Wings have speed in Larkin, Helm Anathasiou.

I think it is obvious Wings are creating a new trend with the diverse bunch of players. They still need some more important pieces to round it out, but they are building a nice foundation.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Yep and the most recent team that could do that still had prime Kronwall, Dallas Drake, Maltby, Mccarty, Downey, Holmstrom, a young Helm, a young Abdelkader etc.

The older teams that did that still had Shanny, DMac, Kocur, Ward, Homer, Pushor, Maltby, Draper, Vladdy, Macoun, Rouse, Lapointe etc.

Right now the wings are one of the softest teams theyve had and also the least skilled. Theyre trying to address both of thjose situations and get balance back in the line up which is exactly what they need. They never won without balance and theyre defnintely one of tyhe softest line ups theyve iced in a long time this year

Abdelkader, Helm, and Downey are awful examples for that 08 team considering Abdelkader played two games, Helm isn't exactly a "tough" guy, and Downey wasn't even thought of in the playoffs. The grind line is also somewhat of a stretch considering all those guys were past their prime and overall had limited effectiveness on the team.

I am fine with inserting grit into the lineup, but in the first round I am not focused on getting big character guys unless they have the skill to go along with it. I don't know if that is the case but it seems that he was not the most skilled guy available at the time.

 

[Pavels Dog]

So Detroit has gone from refusing to rebuild, to choosing to refashion themselves into a team that will definitely have less overall skill than any playoff opponents they might face...but have a chance to beat them up enough to squeak by?

If that strategy actually manifests itself, I'll be looking for a Team B to follow. Because not only will it not work, but it'll be another several years of lousy hockey to watch.

It's toughest to play against a ton of skill that has just enough physicality thrown in. But let the geniuses go after the giants; it'll help be their (much needed) undoing.

Personally I think Mantha is the most entertaining player on the team currently. I don't see why a size-advantage means less fun hockey. AA and Svech also have good size and are fun to watch.
If you're looking for us to build a core that has more pure skill than McDavid/Draisatl and Matthews/Marner/Nylander, you'll be waiting a very long time. No doubt we can hope we land at least one super-skilled elite talent such as Dahlin, but I would try to temper expectations that we'll be the same powerhouse the next 20 years as we were the past 20/25. Being the Boston/Anaheim/LA/SJ to the Detroit/Chicago/Pittsburgh isn't a terrible fate and much more realistic for us to achieve without 10 years of tanking.

 

[Run the Jewels]

A few thoughts:

I don't have a problem with size/grit/peskiness. It has a role. Is there going to be a team that is primarily that style of player who has done well? I can't recall one outside of Philadelphia in the 1970s. It's yet another side track from Ken Holland and his staff as they try to do anything other than the obvious when it comes to remaining competitive.

I absolutely love the analogy of people trying to compare this team to the Pittsburgh Penguins. Yes, Sid Crosby was abused in the playoffs. And yes they are bringing in tougher players to help protect him. So the obvious takeaway is we should get gritty players to protect our players who are perennial MPV and Conn Smythe winners and are considered some of the greatest players to ever play the game. Wait...what? Are Gus Nyquist and Tomas Tatar going to become better performers with gritty linemates? LOL of course not. Hank Zetterberg absolutely abused Jonathan Toews on Chicago's way to beating us and winning their second Stanley Cup. So yes, please continue to point out how it's important to have grit throughout your lineup!!

This was widely considered to be a bad draft to have been our first top 10 pick 26 years. With that being said I do like Lindstrom, the one guy - outside of our goalie - who isn't considered gritty/tough to play against. Lots of really good d-men are drafted in the second round and the fact he was a Hakan pick makes him my favorite pick of the draft.

I like the goalie pick. He's big, he was selected in a round where it's not a total reach to select a goalie, and he was ranked reasonably high. I know absolutely nothing about goalies and I can't say I love this pick, only that I have no problems at all with the pick.

 

[Beltv]

LA Kings won the cup with this build a few times...but they also had elite talent in Doughty, Kopitar and Quick

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Strategically taking kids that are hard to play against is perfectly fine, and a good use of draft picks in many situations. Being dogmatic in drafting, however, is one of the worst possible things we can do as an organization. You need to take what a draft is giving you and not try to force things. You do need to address weaknesses through the draft but as with anything, you must avoid taking things too far. The pendulum needs to move, but it can't swing out of control.

I would also point out that no one outside of the top two rounds (and I am probably being generous there) honestly projects to be an elite NHL player. Take a kid like Fraser. He may not be the most skilled kid in the OHL with the puck, but we didn't exactly pass on a ton of defensemen with elite skill and ppg production to take him.
If you don't think you have good options for taking a skilled player, you are smart to find players likely to make some contribution. Being hard to play against is a good thing for a prospect to offer an organization.

Lastly, I don't mind favoring size so long as a big kid is an above average skater. Big kids that can't move are worthless to me.

 

[Ennui]

LA Kings won the cup with this build a few times...but they also had elite talent in Doughty, Kopitar and Quick

I can almost guarantee you that we will have elite talent after this next draft. I know that Ken Holland is saying that he wants and intends to make the playoffs, but saying and doing are two different things entirely, and nobody can reasonably expect this roster to compete against playoff teams, especially when injuries are factored in.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist by nature, but this really feels like a covert tank. We're not auctioning off the last vestiges of our talent, but we are starving the roster of talent.

IF we can acquire that elite talent in the next draft, the kind of players we have drafted in the '16 and '17 drafts are exactly the kind you want to surround them with. You pick up a Malkin or a Lidstrom/Karlsson/Doughty, and you surround them with players that hopefully pan out to be Simmonds, Girgensons, Gudas, Marchand, etc. I love the idea of becoming a pain in the ass team with a few very high skill players, I loved the 90's Philadelphia model, the 2000's Ducks model; it should be a fun team to watch and a miserable team to go up against.

 

[Frk It]

I would also point out that no one outside of the top two rounds (and I am probably being generous there) honestly projects to be an elite NHL player. Take a kid like Fraser. He may not be the most skilled kid in the OHL with the puck, but we didn't exactly pass on a ton of defensemen with elite skill and ppg production to take him.

I can agree with that - if you want to take some big and nasty mfers in rounds 5-7, I'm all for it.

I'm more concerned with seeing them go for guys like Zablocki and Gallant over guys like Lodnia, Farrance, Walsh, etc.

Look at the forwards we have drafted outside of round 1 since Tyler Wright took over.

 

[izlez]

Like a few have said, I'm hopeful that this trend of drafting big is Holland being ahead of the curve, not way behind it.

We are constantly hearing that teams are going smaller and more skilled. I'm hopeful that that means the bigger guys are being passed up on a little bit and that they will be a nice counterpunch to the smaller teams.


...but it all comes down to whether or not the players are any good. And recent (10 years) drafting doesn't exactly have me confident we have the scouting to find the best guys

 

[Birko19]

With the likes of Larkin and AA in the lineup, if we can mix up a combo of speed/skill along with size/physicality, that would be for the best. This is the combination the Kings had when they won their cups.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

Strategically taking kids that are hard to play against is perfectly fine, and a good use of draft picks in many situations. Being dogmatic in drafting, however, is one of the worst possible things we can do as an organization. You need to take what a draft is giving you and not try to force things. You do need to address weaknesses through the draft but as with anything, you must avoid taking things too far. The pendulum needs to move, but it can't swing out of control.

This x10. Management had straight tunnel vision and its not a recipe for success. Martin does not come off as very intellectual in regards to the draft.

 

[Retire91]

A team needs skill most of all. Size is secondary. Wings are now drafting where you have the potential of getting both size and skill, but apparently still only size is what they after after.

Size without skill is basically Abby and Abby should be a bottom 6 player.

Hard to play against was Brian Burke's philosophy for Toronto. Bring in a superstar winger and then get a bunch of third tier players with size. What a laughing stock that was, and what a laughing stock the wings are

 

[stu the grim reaper]

the process of slowly drafting and developing players and succeeding 15-19% of the time is inherently boring.

you don't grade a draft on whether it's exciting. you don't grade it on fanboy appeal.

and yes of course the wings should try and be 'harder to play against'

anyone who's watched them lose to the bruins in the playoffs the last few years should agree

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I can agree with that - if you want to take some big and nasty mfers in rounds 5-7, I'm all for it.

I'm more concerned with seeing them go for guys like Zablocki and Gallant over guys like Lodnia, Farrance, Walsh, etc.

Look at the forwards we have drafted outside of round 1 since Tyler Wright took over.

Like I said, all things in moderation. I agree that the balance in our drafting is a bit off at this point. I would, however, absolutely take Gallant and Petruzelli again in the third round, but I do agree that we probably should have targeted a couple of more skill players and I agree that those three would have been reasonable picks (and I would certainly added Lipanov to that list, who I would have drafted in the 2nd).

 

[stu the grim reaper]

Personally I think Mantha is the most entertaining player on the team currently. I don't see why a size-advantage means less fun hockey. AA and Svech also have good size and are fun to watch.
If you're looking for us to build a core that has more pure skill than McDavid/Draisatl and Matthews/Marner/Nylander, you'll be waiting a very long time. No doubt we can hope we land at least one super-skilled elite talent such as Dahlin, but I would try to temper expectations that we'll be the same powerhouse the next 20 years as we were the past 20/25. Being the Boston/Anaheim/LA/SJ to the Detroit/Chicago/Pittsburgh isn't a terrible fate and much more realistic for us to achieve without 10 years of tanking.

this is very reasonable and sensible and realistic

 

[Beltv]

I can almost guarantee you that we will have elite talent after this next draft. I know that Ken Holland is saying that he wants and intends to make the playoffs, but saying and doing are two different things entirely, and nobody can reasonably expect this roster to compete against playoff teams, especially when injuries are factored in.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist by nature, but this really feels like a covert tank. We're not auctioning off the last vestiges of our talent, but we are starving the roster of talent.

IF we can acquire that elite talent in the next draft, the kind of players we have drafted in the '16 and '17 drafts are exactly the kind you want to surround them with. You pick up a Malkin or a Lidstrom/Karlsson/Doughty, and you surround them with players that hopefully pan out to be Simmonds, Girgensons, Gudas, Marchand, etc. I love the idea of becoming a pain in the ass team with a few very high skill players, I loved the 90's Philadelphia model, the 2000's Ducks model; it should be a fun team to watch and a miserable team to go up against.

We are building a team that trended 4-6 years ago. Big guys must have skill and be able to move though. Can't just have a big team full of slow guys. This game is about speed. Skating MUST not be an area where it's these big guys biggest issues.

 

[Birko19]

A team needs skill most of all. Size is secondary. Wings are now drafting where you have the potential of getting both size and skill, but apparently still only size is what they after after.

Size without skill is basically Abby and Abby should be a bottom 6 player.

Hard to play against was Brian Burke's philosophy for Toronto. Bring in a superstar winger and then get a bunch of third tier players with size. What a laughing stock that was, and what a laughing stock the wings are

I don't get your view, this is the first time in 3 years we have focused on such size in the first round. The last time we took a huge guy it was Mantha in 2013, and he certainly does not lack skill.

 

[Frk It]

I don't get your view, this is the first time in 3 years we have taken size in the first round. The last time we took a big guy it was Mantha in 2013, and he certainly does not lack skill.

Svechnikov...

 

[Birko19]

Svechnikov...

Yea I forgot how big he was, but there's no doubt he was drafted based on his skills, not size.

If you look at what they drafted, this year is probably the only year they truly went after size in the intent to fill that huge net physical presence. Last year we drafted Cholowski in the hopes he becomes an all-rounded dman in our future top-4 (Hopefully top-2), Larkin was drafted for his combination of speed, skill, and two way game, Svechnikov was drafted for his skills mostly, and Mantha was drafted for his goal scoring ability despite being a huge guy.

 

[Flowah]

It seems like today's NHL puts speed and skill above all. Size is great, but the era of goons and enforcers is over and even "stay at home" d-men are slowly fading.

I don't think a single person is saying it's bad to draft big guys. I think plenty are saying it should be a secondary concern after skill/speed and that it doesn't seem like that was the case in this past draft.

I am far more confident in a small but skilled guy's ability to learn to assert himself than I am in a slow, unskilled big guy being able to contribute to a team's success. It's really just that simple.

Yea I forgot how big he was, but there's no doubt he was drafted based on his skills, not size.

If you look at what they drafted, this year is probably the only year they truly went after size in the intent to fill that huge net physical presence. Last year we drafted Cholowski in the hopes he becomes an all-rounded dman in our future top-4 (Hopefully top-2), Larkin was drafted for his combination of speed, skill, and two way game, Svechnikov was drafted for his skills mostly, and Mantha was drafted for his goal scoring ability despite being a huge guy.

Okay?

But why would you ever draft a big guy just for size? Yeah we drafted skill guys who happened to be big a few years ago. That's how it should be. Always. There's no room in this game anymore for big guys without talent.

 

[Ezekial]

Svechnikov's scouting report by Curtis Joe for elite prospects blurb in 2014 starts with "An incredibly skilled offensive winger"

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

It seems like today's NHL puts speed and skill above all. Size is great, but the era of goons and enforcers is over and even "stay at home" d-men are slowly fading.

I don't think a single person is saying it's bad to draft big guys. I think plenty are saying it should be a secondary concern after skill/speed and that it doesn't seem like that was the case in this past draft.

I am far more confident in a small but skilled guy's ability to learn to assert himself than I am in a slow, unskilled big guy being able to contribute to a team's success. It's really just that simple.


Okay?

But why would you ever draft a big guy just for size? Yeah we drafted skill guys who happened to be big a few years ago. That's how it should be. Always. There's no room in this game anymore for big guys without talent.

In terms of this particular class, I think we witnessed a situation where most of the undersized skill guys available outside of the first round had some real skating concerns. Do you take a 5'10" high-skill (relatively) kid with bad feet? Not only are you asking him to overcome a lack of size but to drastically improve athleticism and skating. That is a really, really tall task.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Svechnikov's scouting report by Curtis Joe for elite prospects blurb in 2014 starts with "An incredibly skilled offensive winger"

And he still is a very skilled winger. Only on hfboards are big guys not allowed to be skilled.

 

[Birko19]

Okay?

But why would you ever draft a big guy just for size? Yeah we drafted skill guys who happened to be big a few years ago. That's how it should be. Always. There's no room in this game anymore for big guys without talent.

What makes you think Rasmussen has no skills?

 

[Frk It]

Svechnikov's scouting report by Curtis Joe for elite prospects blurb in 2014 starts with "An incredibly skilled offensive winger"

Who said that he wasn't? It would really help if you quoted people.