Should the Pens consider dealing Letang?

[Gurglesons]

If Justin Schultz continues to elevate his game like he did last year, then he deserves 7M from someone. He was a game changer on that PP. No discredit to #58. Schultz deserves a lot of credit for what he's done.

I mean, I like Schultz's game, but if you move Letang you are basically giving him a blank check because without him our D is terrible.

Honestly, I think moving Letang would literally set back this team three years and is probably one of the dumbest moves we could make as a franchise.

Unless, we are the Nashville to the Montreal in the trade and get someone like Trouba or Ekblad. I just don't see a team making that kind of trade honestly.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I mean, I like Schultz's game, but if you move Letang you are basically giving him a blank check because without him our D is terrible.

Honestly, I think moving Letang would literally set back this team three years and is probably one of the dumbest moves we could make as a franchise.

Unless, we are the Nashville to the Montreal in the trade and get someone like Trouba or Ekblad. I just don't see a team making that kind of trade honestly.

Yeah, it's better to just let it ride out and if someone has to play baby sitter to Letang, I'd rather it was Cole and not Dumoulin or Maatta, as it takes away from the defense quite a bite.

I'd rather see this tried as the pairings:

Cole, Letang
Dumoulin, Schultz
Maatta, Hunwick/Ruhwedel/Corrado

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I just don't understand why the coaching staff continues to play Letang 26+ minutes a night when it's clear he's struggling. You don't have to bench him, just cut his minutes by about 3 or 4 per night.

 

[Zirakzigil]

You wont trade Letang and be a better team in the short term, and you are gambling youd improve in the long term. This team is in win now mode and trading him wont help you win now.

 

[Gurglesons]

I just don't understand why the coaching staff continues to play Letang 26+ minutes a night when it's clear he's struggling. You don't have to bench him, just cut his minutes by about 3 or 4 per night.

Two of our defensemen have been injured and Letang looked much better before that.

 

[66-30-33]

Just for curiosity sake how much more do Pens add to Letang to get OEL? Then Arizona can trade Tang to Leafs who need an RD more than an LD IIRC. Or a 3 way with Pens getting OEL, Leafs Letang, Arizona futures.

Unrealistic part...imagine OEL here, then Doughty deciding he wants to come here when his contract is up and us with a top pairing of OEL-Doughty.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Two of our defensemen have been injured and Letang looked much better before that.

Thing is, he was still playing 26-27mins a night even when we had Hunwick & Schultz in the line-up, so they're throwing him out there like he's not rusty and playing some solid hockey when really, he should be eased in. This season alone, he's never played below 25mins outside of the 1 game (the 10-1 blow out).

Is that really easing him in?

The problem that I find with the team right now is the whole setting players up for success angle, they just aren't doing it.

AVG Ice Time Per Game (LY in brackets):

Letang - 26:23 (25:31)
Dumoulin - 21:05 (20:33)
Maatta - 19:11 (18:04)
Schultz - 18:37 (20:27)
Hunwick - 18:19
Cole - 16:25 (19:49)
Ruhwedel - 16:05 (17:20)
Corrado - 11:06 (7:33)

Gone:
Daley - 20:23
Hainsey - 21:00
Streit - 17:06
Warsofsky - 15:44
Pouliot - 14:53
Olesky - 13:42
Gaunce - 12:31


Why is Cole playing 3:24 less this year? The increase to Dumo is fine ,same for Maatta but then you see Schultz getting almost 2mins less per game and Letang is actually getting increased ice time per game?

We all love Sullivan, yes he does get a free pass for some things given the current status of back 2 back champs, but him and his coaching staff are not managing minutes the right way at all.

 

[larueskee]

Thing is, he was still playing 26-27mins a night even when we had Hunwick & Schultz in the line-up, so they're throwing him out there like he's not rusty and playing some solid hockey when really, he should be eased in. This season alone, he's never played below 25mins outside of the 1 game (the 10-1 blow out).

Is that really easing him in?

The problem that I find with the team right now is the whole setting players up for success angle, they just aren't doing it.

AVG Ice Time Per Game (LY in brackets):

Letang - 26:23 (25:31)
Dumoulin - 21:05 (20:33)
Maatta - 19:11 (18:04)
Schultz - 18:37 (20:27)
Hunwick - 18:19
Cole - 16:25 (19:49)
Ruhwedel - 16:05 (17:20)
Corrado - 11:06 (7:33)

Gone:
Daley - 20:23
Hainsey - 21:00
Streit - 17:06
Warsofsky - 15:44
Pouliot - 14:53
Olesky - 13:42
Gaunce - 12:31


Why is Cole playing 3:24 less this year? The increase to Dumo is fine ,same for Maatta but then you see Schultz getting almost 2mins less per game and Letang is actually getting increased ice time per game?

We all love Sullivan, yes he does get a free pass for some things given the current status of back 2 back champs, but him and his coaching staff are not managing minutes the right way at all.

I would imagine that it has something to do with the fact that Dumo got a big juicy contract over a very long term. Cole, even though he was one of the plus minus leaders and out pointed Dumo last year is on his last year before hitting UFA. I thought signing Dumo to such a deal was a mistake. I watched the games last year and if there was one d man to extend it would have been Ian Cole. It will be a mistake to let Cole walk away so I expect the team trades him. All because of committing big dollars to a couple or 3 of the wrong defense.

 

[wgknestrick]

So when does Letang get gud?

I would imagine that it has something to do with the fact that Dumo got a big juicy contract over a very long term. Cole, even though he was one of the plus minus leaders and out pointed Dumo last year is on his last year before hitting UFA. I thought signing Dumo to such a deal was a mistake. I watched the games last year and if there was one d man to extend it would have been Ian Cole. It will be a mistake to let Cole walk away so I expect the team trades him. All because of committing big dollars to a couple or 3 of the wrong defense.

You are absolutely right. Most of this board can't seem to grasp that Maatta, Schultz, and Cole were/are the real "core" on this D and the reason it seemed to just keep winning. For every "great" thing that Letang does, he cancels it out with 1.5 negative things. For D men, just follow the 5v5 GF% as a quick performance guide. If they are doing their job, they will be >50% and helping you outscore the other team at 5v5. This is why PIT was "shockingly" able to still win the cup this year without their #1D. You don't miss a player who effectively gives you a 45% GF% at 5v5....especially when that player is played like he's your #1D. If you aren't outscoring the other teams at 5v5, you aren't going to win very many games. It doesn't matter if that player is the most impressive looking one out there. If his impressive plays don't lead to a >50% GF, its meaningless. I notice all the bad plays he makes, and it's a TON. He gives up the most number of high percentage shots against on this team. His on ice shooting % (of entire team) when he's on the ice is way below average as well. He's not even creating high % chances when he's on the ice "risking" these passes of his.

With respect to Letang, his last couple years, he has had negative effects on just about every PIT player's GF% with him on the ice vs without him. It's not good. He's "been" hurting this team for a while, and this year is just beyond comprehension how bad he is. Niemi bad. If he was a "new" player that had a -16 in 14 games, he'd never see the NHL again after that kind of start. I don't think he recovers from this because he is just so, so, so bad right now. A 3X improvement is not enough.

This team is in the late 90s mode now, so what do you do? Do you healthy scratch him? I don't have the "fix it" answers beyond addition by subtraction.

 

[T1K]

Nope. I was on board for Maatta as a core piece for Duchene, but apart from that we shouldn't trade d-men at this point. Our prospect pool is pretty weak in that regard. The time to trade Letang was prior to him signing that contract, although at one point or another I feel like almost everyone here wanted to get rid of him, myself included.

For S&G's, what is the best 1-1 trade for Letang (teams needs not considered)? I think like Patches, but he's kinda fallen off a bit.

 

[JTG]

Pens would need a top defensive prospect coming back, along with a bunch of other pieces.

I think what occurred in the postseason was a flash in the pan and the guys were able to come together for the short term to accomplish their goal. If Letang were gone from this roster forever, I don't think we have the blueline right now to absorb that loss.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Pens would need a top defensive prospect coming back, along with a bunch of other pieces.

I think what occurred in the postseason was a flash in the pan and the guys were able to come together for the short term to accomplish their goal. If Letang were gone from this roster forever, I don't think we have the blueline right now to absorb that loss.

We will always have stats nerds like above, and others who don't appreciate what Letang brings to this team.

I'm tired of the rhetoric about how they won without Letang. Ya, they did, but they had to scratch and claw their way there. The team played rope a dope all playoffs long. With Letang, they dominated possession and ran roughshod over the league to a cup.

I'll always remember game one agt Nashville when Guentzel rescued them. They went 37 minutes without a shot up until that point. That is almost impossible to even believe...

If people don't think that was directly related to missing Letang, they best go back and review what he was doing for them in 2016... including scoring the cup winner.

 

[td_ice]

Dis

If Justin Schultz continues to elevate his game like he did last year, then he deserves 7M from someone. He was a game changer on that PP. No discredit to #58. Schultz deserves a lot of credit for what he's done.

Whew, I don't know about that. That would be a mistake imo from any team. You can't pay a PP specialist that much of your cap imo. Schultz may be a bit better than a PP specialist, (i.e. Shattenkirk) but not enough, I don't believe.

 

[ColePens]

Dis


Whew, I don't know about that. That would be a mistake imo from any team. You can't pay a PP specialist that much of your cap imo. Schultz may be a bit better than a PP specialist, (i.e. Shattenkirk) but not enough, I don't believe.

Now i'm not talking about a Pens perspective, but Schultz is a solid defender. He's no Shattenkirk in the d-zone. He helps transition. He's a game-changer on the PP. I look at some of the contracts out there and I can't see why he wouldn't be a 6-7m defender to other teams.

Especially if he keeps up his game in the d-zone.

 

[mpp9]

I don’t think it’s fair to call Schultz a PP specialist. I think he’s an offensive D-man who’s very competent in his own end.

And to Jiggy’s point. I was at game 1 against Nashville. Never seen anything like that. Only reason I had hope after watching that was remembering we had a bunch of finishers and Nash pretty much just had Forsberg.

 

[LiquorLicense]

People can broach the question, but is there a reasonable solution out there? I think it's pretty obvious that we can't replace what Letang is supposed to be. I suppose if you totally believe he will never get to close to who he was, then maybe you move him before everyone else finds out the truth. The question is how would you be confident in that enough to pull the trigger on a trade?

The Pens are in win now mode for the next 3 years. Unless there's a stud NHL ready D prospect in the deal coming back, it will take 3-5 years to replace Letang. By the time that happens we are looking for the next Crosby and Malkin.

There is just no realistic deal out there that makes trading Letang make a lick of sense. If Derrick Pouliot was who he was supposed to be, then maybe this argument has some merit. Instead, he's playing 3rd pair on someone else's blue line and looks as meh as ever. The Pen's D prospect pool is as close to bare as possible. Now is just not the right time to trade him without also conceding that you probably won't be contending for a Cup again until you replace him.

This is Rutherfords call with the council of those he trusts. I've loved watching Letang play hockey over the years, but sometimes you get what you can for an old car before it blows up and is worth nothing. I'm not saying Letang is on the decline in the next year or two, but there is always a chance. If you can get a good haul for him, around the same time frame that he's not performing up to his pay grade, you jump on it.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

So when does Letang get gud?


You are absolutely right. Most of this board can't seem to grasp that Maatta, Schultz, and Cole were/are the real "core" on this D and the reason it seemed to just keep winning. For every "great" thing that Letang does, he cancels it out with 1.5 negative things. For D men, just follow the 5v5 GF% as a quick performance guide. If they are doing their job, they will be >50% and helping you outscore the other team at 5v5. This is why PIT was "shockingly" able to still win the cup this year without their #1D. You don't miss a player who effectively gives you a 45% GF% at 5v5....especially when that player is played like he's your #1D. If you aren't outscoring the other teams at 5v5, you aren't going to win very many games. It doesn't matter if that player is the most impressive looking one out there. If his impressive plays don't lead to a >50% GF, its meaningless. I notice all the bad plays he makes, and it's a TON. He gives up the most number of high percentage shots against on this team. His on ice shooting % (of entire team) when he's on the ice is way below average as well. He's not even creating high % chances when he's on the ice "risking" these passes of his.

With respect to Letang, his last couple years, he has had negative effects on just about every PIT player's GF% with him on the ice vs without him. It's not good. He's "been" hurting this team for a while, and this year is just beyond comprehension how bad he is. Niemi bad. If he was a "new" player that had a -16 in 14 games, he'd never see the NHL again after that kind of start. I don't think he recovers from this because he is just so, so, so bad right now. A 3X improvement is not enough.

This team is in the late 90s mode now, so what do you do? Do you healthy scratch him? I don't have the "fix it" answers beyond addition by subtraction.

Last time Letang played in the playoffs he was our playoff MVP. He is also a couple years removed from being a Norris candidate. Our D was also clearly limited by Letang's absence during last year's cup run.

Let's not create foolish narratives, trading Letang would be as dumb as trading Malkin.

 

[SEALBound]

For S&G's, what is the best 1-1 trade for Letang (teams needs not considered)? I think like Patches, but he's kinda fallen off a bit.

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Realistically, there are only two ways I see Letang going anywhere and both come with a big *

1. LA or Arizona approach us and offer Doughty for Letang+ or Letang for OEL*

2. Doughty or OEL (I use these two because they are the only #1D that have contracts coming to an end where there is a question as to whether or not a resign is a sure thing.) choose to sign here and a suiter shows up for Letang*

*Letang agrees to this...and in all honesty...why would he?

He's a big enough part of the team for so long that I believe JR will do right by him just like he did right by MAF. Meaning, he's not going to make a move that Letang doesn't agree to regardless of the NTC. I think Letang has earned that.

With that, if we three-peat and Letang gets that 4th Cup, perhaps a trade out to Arizona where there is less pressure and warmer weather may be more palatable to him. Pure 100% speculation based on nothing. Who knows.

Realistically though, until there is a blurb about teams approaching us (whether it be OEL or Doughty's camps or another team wanting Letang), he goes no where. I'm about 100% certain that JR is in zero hurry to trade him. An upgrade or shift if the deal is right, maaaaaaaybe...but as far as "Letang is someone who may be available that teams can call about", no.

 

[Ms Maggie]

Absolutely not.

 

[billybudd]

Unless you can find a 1-1 swap for a similar caliber player (Weber<->Subban), you're way better off trying to fix the guy than move him. Trying to replace him by using his cap space for multiple players won't work, since all it buys you is two of Hunwick. No disrespect to the guy, but two of him don't replace one of Letang.

Trading him for prospects won't work, either, since D are notoriously difficult to project and, even when guys who are projected to be impact players end up becoming exactly that, they tend to do so on erratic schedules.

Edit: someone said Doughty. I'm going to need to see an explanation of how he fits into our salary structure, because he's going to be making Toews money after next year.

 

[Rufus]

Pens would need a top defensive prospect coming back, along with a bunch of other pieces.

I think what occurred in the postseason was a flash in the pan and the guys were able to come together for the short term to accomplish their goal. If Letang were gone from this roster forever, I don't think we have the blueline right now to absorb that loss.

Yeah, that’s how I feel as well. It’s foolish to assume that this team could always win the cup without Letang. It’s not a model teams are going to follow and it’s certainly not one we could follow right now and have any leve of success with the roster we have

 

[Riptide]

The Pens just won a cup without him and he comes back and the team looks lost and Letang looks terrible. The Pens have 7.250,000 in cap space wasted on him ( like he is today ) and another wasted 4,100,000 million on Dumo. Those two players are on pace to be first and second in minus for the year. Rutherford does not need to try and get any player back of equal value at this point he needs to just unload that salary if he can find a team stupid enough to take it.

You're clearly aware that one of the reasons we won the cup was Dumoulin playing big minutes for us in key games?

 

[Riptide]

Fixing Kris Letang:
1) set him up with a sport psychologist
2) play him with someone who's defensively good and conservative, probably Cole, maybe Hunwick
3) start him out again playing limited minutes against lesser competition so he can slow his overthinking and stop panicking
4) give him permission to be fearless again and stop worrying about taking hits. Sully and JR did him a disservice when they talked to him about tweaking his game. He is who he is and if who he is is someone subject to injury because his head is down or he's trying to make a play when someone is on him, then so be it. He hurts us less injured on LTIR than he does playing the way he's playing now

As most have already said, we will not get a return that makes sense if we try to trade him

You're acting like this is the first time he's been told this. It's been something that Rutherford has been telling him for several years.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

You're clearly aware that one of the reasons we won the cup was Dumoulin playing big minutes for us in key games?

All the while dragging the anchor, Ron Hainsey as his partner

Good times on this forum...

 

[Harvey Birdman]

The Pens just won a cup without him and he comes back and the team looks lost and Letang looks terrible. The Pens have 7.250,000 in cap space wasted on him ( like he is today ) and another wasted 4,100,000 million on Dumo. Those two players are on pace to be first and second in minus for the year. Rutherford does not need to try and get any player back of equal value at this point he needs to just unload that salary if he can find a team stupid enough to take it.

Dumoulin and his 4.1M contract is not an issue what so ever in any form or function. You are trying to build a straw man that does not exist going down that path. Without Dumoulin last year we do not win the cup, he was an amazing work horse last season, all the while doing it with Hainsey in tow and injured.

Having issues with Letangs contract is a issue that if brought forward in the right context has legitimacy behind it. Looking around the league at defensemen's contracts, even ones that bring a minimial amount of offense, that can crunch the minutes that Dumoulin can at his age... Please visit a site like CapFriendly and take a look around the league at what other comparable defensemen are being paid that are not on their ELC and/or first extension and find me a list of people that make Dumoulin's contract burdensome, not just one or two. But a handful then come back when you do not have a poorly put together straw man.