Should the Pens consider dealing Letang?

[T1K]

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Realistically, there are only two ways I see Letang going anywhere and both come with a big *

1. LA or Arizona approach us and offer Doughty for Letang+ or Letang for OEL*

2. Doughty or OEL (I use these two because they are the only #1D that have contracts coming to an end where there is a question as to whether or not a resign is a sure thing.) choose to sign here and a suiter shows up for Letang*

*Letang agrees to this...and in all honesty...why would he?

He's a big enough part of the team for so long that I believe JR will do right by him just like he did right by MAF. Meaning, he's not going to make a move that Letang doesn't agree to regardless of the NTC. I think Letang has earned that.

With that, if we three-peat and Letang gets that 4th Cup, perhaps a trade out to Arizona where there is less pressure and warmer weather may be more palatable to him. Pure 100% speculation based on nothing. Who knows.

Realistically though, until there is a blurb about teams approaching us (whether it be OEL or Doughty's camps or another team wanting Letang), he goes no where. I'm about 100% certain that JR is in zero hurry to trade him. An upgrade or shift if the deal is right, maaaaaaaybe...but as far as "Letang is someone who may be available that teams can call about", no.

You just threw up in your mouth- Really? Be a little more dramatic...

I was just curious what everyone would consider to be a fair 1-1 in a vacuum *not considering team needs*. Patches was just who came to mind as I typed that in the bathroom stall.

I'm not even gonna touch on the Doughty thing, never gonna happen plus Toronto could easily outbid us if he was available...

OEL is definitely more realistic, seems plausible. I was kind of thinking of an equivalent W/C trade like Hall for Larsson, but granted, I didn't specify that in my post.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Coyotes vs. Letang: The Stoppable Force vs. The Movable Object

Who will be the least worst tonight?

I'm saying 6-5 Pens win with Letang a minus 5.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Coyotes vs. Letang: The Stoppable Force vs. The Movable Object

Who will be the least worst tonight?

I'm saying 6-5 Pens win with Letang a minus 5.

You think the Pens will actually score 6 goals? I think it's more likely that the 'Yotes get their first shutout of the season tonight than the Pens' offense exploding.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

We will always have stats nerds like above, and others who don't appreciate what Letang brings to this team.

I'm tired of the rhetoric about how they won without Letang. Ya, they did, but they had to scratch and claw their way there. The team played rope a dope all playoffs long. With Letang, they dominated possession and ran roughshod over the league to a cup.

I'll always remember game one agt Nashville when Guentzel rescued them. They went 37 minutes without a shot up until that point. That is almost impossible to even believe...

If people don't think that was directly related to missing Letang, they best go back and review what he was doing for them in 2016... including scoring the cup winner.

Well Jiggy, for one thing the so-called stats nerds are on your side because you're right, with Letang we can dominate possession more than without him. But will we ever see the 2016 version of Letang again? That is what management needs to decide. And, if he does resurface at some point, how long will it last this time?

At least we know we CAN win without him, right?

I don’t think it’s fair to call Schultz a PP specialist. I think he’s an offensive D-man who’s very competent in his own end.

And to Jiggy’s point. I was at game 1 against Nashville. Never seen anything like that. Only reason I had hope after watching that was remembering we had a bunch of finishers and Nash pretty much just had Forsberg.

Yeah well those finishers are still here. We didn't get rid of any of those finishers. We got rid of guys who actually couldn't finish anymore like Kunitz and who never could like Bonino. Cullen was never a finisher either.

We also have yet another finisher on the way in Sprong. Finishing is the name of the game. You finish more than your opponent, you win the game. Nobody in this league can finish as well as we can, especially in the clutch. Until someone does, we are still the favorites. With or without possession dominance, with or without Bonino/Cullen, and with or without Letang.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Well Jiggy, for one thing the so-called stats nerds are on your side because you're right, with Letang we can dominate possession more than without him. But will we ever see the 2016 version of Letang again? That is what management needs to decide. And, if he does resurface at some point, how long will it last this time?

At least we know we CAN win without him, right?

They can win without him again if say, Sprong sets a bunch of rookie playoff records like Guentzel did. That probably isn't likely though...

I never in my life want to watch a team like that again in the playoffs. Almost every game was pure torture of watching them stave off wave after wave of attack from the opponent because they couldn't transition out of their own end.

Maybe if Sullivan didn't throw Letang into the fire with huge minutes off the bat, he wouldn't be such a mess right now.

Asking a guy to play big minutes coming off major neck surgery and also to change his style of game at the same time, is asking for trouble.

Let's see how he does with reduced minutes. I suspect we will see Letang return to form.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

I would love to find out what Marc Bergevin would be willing to give up for Letang.

I know he's a right defenseman and not a left defenseman, and Montreal is clearly in the market for the latter, but Bergevin and Canadiens ownership seem to be on a mission to save face right now. Adding a Montrealer and Stanley Cup winner would be viewed locally as a major coup (NO MATTER what they surrender in return). Also, they have the cap space to pull it off and would also need to spend it to save face with the fans.

If Bergevin would be willing to deal his 2018 first, plus Galchenyuk and a young defenseman like Mete or Juulsen, I think you have to pull the trigger. Basically, we're talking about the return that Joe Sakic is hoping for in exchange for Matt Duchene.

Anything less, and I agree with the notion that Letang's value isn't high enough right now to deal. Wait for him to start playing well again, then see what's out there.

JR is never afraid of the bold trade, and this season he just might have to make one of those.

If Bergevin is that desperate, than I totally agree that JR has to pull the trigger. I don't think the Habs would deal Mete right now, but even if the deal is Juulsen I would do it.
Thing is pick would probably be lottery protected like the one the Sens sent to Colorado

I like Letang, but it really all depends on the return we could land.

 

[edog37]

Sure, but then discuss why you think Letang is going to bounce back and why we won't ever need to trade him, maybe?

Look, I'm all for keeping Letang around for the foreseeable future, but acting like nobody can broach the question of trading him is some dumb ****. Letang WILL get traded or let go if he sticks around long enough, unless he retires for health reasons. Wouldn't it be better to discuss the possible timing, needs, and expectations of that beforehand?

Because the discussion is completely premature. Letang has demonstrated ability to bounce back & chances are he will. You give players of that caliber the benefit of the doubt. This guy is a core player, you don't shoot from the hip after 17 games or so....it's typical fan reactionary nonsense. If we are talking a year or so, then we can have the discussion, but even then, I'm cautious....

We did win the Cup without him, but to suggest we don't need him to do so is preposterous. We were one shot away from being beaten in the Conference Final...against Ottawa of all teams in an OT Game 7 scenario. You can't cut any closer than that. With a healthy Letang last year, that series goes 5 max. Against Nashville, we got somewhat lucky again when Johansen went down. That took out Nashville's #1 center. Nashville's goals for avg in the Final was 2.16....they could have used his production....relating to Letang, with a healthy Letang in the Final, our goals for avg would have jumped from the 3.16 to possibly over 4.00....the Final would not have gone 6 games.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

They can win without him again if say, Sprong sets a bunch of rookie playoff records like Guentzel did. That probably isn't likely though...

I never in my life want to watch a team like that again in the playoffs. Almost every game was pure torture of watching them stave off wave after wave of attack from the opponent because they couldn't transition out of their own end.

Maybe if Sullivan didn't throw Letang into the fire with huge minutes off the bat, he wouldn't be such a mess right now.

Asking a guy to play big minutes coming off major neck surgery and also to change his style of game at the same time, is asking for trouble.

Let's see how he does with reduced minutes. I suspect we will see Letang return to form.

I really don't understand why the coaching staff makes him play so many minutes right out of the gate.

And they can't even use injuries as an excuse, as they were playing him 26+ minutes per game even when the entire blueline was healthy.

PS. Is it me, or is the font on this forum changed? Even plain text looks like it's been "bolded".

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

What exactly is "right out of the gate" anyway? It's a week into November. Letang's been healthy enough to skate/workout for months. He went something like 7 months without the rigors of hockey--especially playoff hockey--taking its toll on his body.

There is no "right out of the gate." He's healthy enough to play, and he should be getting the minutes a cornerstone, $7M+ defenseman should be getting. You shouldn't need to ease a guy into the lineup, or insulate his minutes/responsibility with the kind of talent and salary Letang has. He's well rested and capable, he's just playing like garbage. For better or worse, you just have to ride it out and keep playing him in hopes he works through it.

 

[Gurglesons]

What exactly is "right out of the gate" anyway? It's a week into November. Letang's been healthy enough to skate/workout for months. He went something like 7 months without the rigors of hockey--especially playoff hockey--taking its toll on his body.

There is no "right out of the gate." He's healthy enough to play, and he should be getting the minutes a cornerstone, $7M+ defenseman should be getting. You shouldn't need to ease a guy into the lineup, or insulate his minutes/responsibility with the kind of talent and salary Letang has. He's well rested and capable, he's just playing like garbage. For better or worse, you just have to ride it out and keep playing him in hopes he works through it.

I mean he had a major neck surgery that in the past has ended players careers, but sure.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I mean he had a major neck surgery that in the past has ended players careers, but sure.

Yep, in April. It's November. But hey, it's gotta be somethin'--can't just be Letang's playing like shit.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yep, in April. It's November. But hey, it's gotta be somethin'--can't just be Letang's playing like ****.

Didn't realize human beings magically dealt with injuries in seven months.

He's rusty, remember Sid after he came back from concussions looked good for a couple games then started to look off and sluggish.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Didn't realize human beings magically dealt with injuries in seven months.

I mean, the best doctors a professional sports team could find gave it a 4-6 month recovery period. I've seen nothing from Letang to suggest physical limitation is what is contributing to his poor play. It is what it's always been with Letang--mental. Maybe it's due to the coaching staff asking him to not play like a reckless idiot, maybe it's him second-guessing his physical ability due to the surgery, whatever. But I don't think it's a physical issue whatsoever.

 

[Peat]

I doubt the injury is physically affecting him - at least he doesn't look physically affected and I'd be pretty alarmed if he was allowed back on the ice without it fully rehabbed - but coming that close to a career ender, spending that much time out, that messes with your head.

Maybe its reduced his neck flexibility and that is messing with his peripheral vision. Idk. But if its something physical, it looks small. I'm fairly sure this is mostly mental... which is a bit of a relief when you consider it.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

What exactly is "right out of the gate" anyway? It's a week into November. Letang's been healthy enough to skate/workout for months. He went something like 7 months without the rigors of hockey--especially playoff hockey--taking its toll on his body.

There is no "right out of the gate." He's healthy enough to play, and he should be getting the minutes a cornerstone, $7M+ defenseman should be getting. You shouldn't need to ease a guy into the lineup, or insulate his minutes/responsibility with the kind of talent and salary Letang has. He's well rested and capable, he's just playing like garbage. For better or worse, you just have to ride it out and keep playing him in hopes he works through it.

There's a difference between being healthy and being rusty because he hasn't played in a game situation since like January or whatever.

Letang may very well be healthy enough to log 26+ minutes per game, but someone with that layoff should have been eased back into the lineup until he's gotten rid of the rust of the long layoff.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I doubt the injury is physically affecting him - at least he doesn't look physically affected and I'd be pretty alarmed if he was allowed back on the ice without it fully rehabbed - but coming that close to a career ender, spending that much time out, that messes with your head.

Maybe its reduced his neck flexibility and that is messing with his peripheral vision. Idk. But if its something physical, it looks small. I'm fairly sure this is mostly mental... which is a bit of a relief when you consider it.

I've wondered that. Not a really visible difference watching him but something that could really throw him off. Except for that possibility I think it's mental, too. It sounds like a f***ing terrifying injury and recovery. It's also not like his stroke in that it happened because of hockey and that physical abuse won't go away.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I mean, the best doctors a professional sports team could find gave it a 4-6 month recovery period. I've seen nothing from Letang to suggest physical limitation is what is contributing to his poor play. It is what it's always been with Letang--mental. Maybe it's due to the coaching staff asking him to not play like a reckless idiot, maybe it's him second-guessing his physical ability due to the surgery, whatever. But I don't think it's a physical issue whatsoever.

You do recognize the difference between practices and games, yes?

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

You do recognize the difference between practices and games, yes?

Sure, but how many games does a player of Letang's caliber and salary need before it stops being "he's injured/rusty/adjusting" and it's "ah, he's just playing like shit"?

There's a difference between being healthy and being rusty because he hasn't played in a game situation since like January or whatever.

Letang may very well be healthy enough to log 26+ minutes per game, but someone with that layoff should have been eased back into the lineup until he's gotten rid of the rust of the long layoff.

I don't know, man. I thought it was rust but we're a month into the season and he's still just plodding along. I think it's just an extended stretch of shit play from a guy, and it's entirely psychological. Letang's had time to get his stamina and timings down, he's not rusty a month into the season playing 25min a game.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Sure, but how many games does a player of Letang's caliber and salary need before it stops being "he's injured/rusty/adjusting" and it's "ah, he's just playing like ****"?

I don't know, man. I thought it was rust but we're a month into the season and he's still just plodding along. I think it's just an extended stretch of **** play from a guy, and it's entirely psychological. Letang's had time to get his stamina and timings down, he's not rusty a month into the season playing 25min a game.

At this point, I don't think it's rust. I think at this point, it's mental. But I think the mental issues were brought on by them playing him too much, too early to start the year. And because he struggled badly, it's now affecting him from a mental aspect and his game simply isn't improving.

I think if they'd eased him back in the first 10 games, allowed him to get comfortable, and then started to increase his ice time over the next 10 games to where he usually plays, he might not be having the same sort of issues he is right now.

 

[Peat]

Asking a guy who's feeling his way back to be the man is always a lot of pressure. Asking him to be the man when he's just watched his team win Stanley without him is just added fun. When it goes wrong, he'll then pile pressure onto himself. Another potential explanation for why Letang is playing so badly.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I mean he had a major neck surgery that in the past has ended players careers, but sure.

Right, but THAT'S also part of the concern too. It's not like we're dealing with sci-fi put 'em in the bacta tank shit.

But, like I said, I see the pros to keeping him. I'd just like to see more discussion about when/if we would trade someone like Letang.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I think a part of the problem, or maybe THE problem is the usage of Letang. We've all beaten the fact that he's had neck surgery, to death, which is no small injury by any stretch. But the team uses him like he never had the surgery at all and that he's not rusty. Where's the easing him in part of this?

The guy is playing 25-26mins a night, while adjusting back to playing at those minutes in every situation.

That's just ridiculous.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Right, but THAT'S also part of the concern too. It's not like we're dealing with sci-fi put 'em in the bacta tank ****.

But, like I said, I see the pros to keeping him. I'd just like to see more discussion about when/if we would trade someone like Letang.

You can, but the thing that undermines wanting to talk about trading him is that the board goes from zero to trade in five seconds. What would be the plan for trading him that isn't "need to get out from under that contract!!!"? Something that helps them be competitive for the rest of the window. Do they magically guarantee getting the pick for Dahlin? Get their hands on a 1D nearing free agency or in free agency? Teams do have 1Ds closing in on free agency, after next season Doughty, Karlsson, OEL and McDonagh aren't signed. Someone like Carlson is hitting free agency this offseason. We'll see how many aren't re-signed. Get an amazing 2D who can be good enough that it's not trying to repeat 2017?

You trade Letang when it becomes apparent he's not a player capable of being worth that contract anymore. At that point who will take him? He also has a fairly restrictive NTC. Or when a D prospect takes a quantum leap forward to be a 1D. They're pretty much locked in with Letang.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I really don't understand why the coaching staff makes him play so many minutes right out of the gate.

And they can't even use injuries as an excuse, as they were playing him 26+ minutes per game even when the entire blueline was healthy.

PS. Is it me, or is the font on this forum changed? Even plain text looks like it's been "bolded".

No idea, but they made a mistake for sure.

Ya, the font was bolded yesterday for me on my iPhone, but I'm on my iPad right now and it looks normal again.

What exactly is "right out of the gate" anyway? It's a week into November. Letang's been healthy enough to skate/workout for months. He went something like 7 months without the rigors of hockey--especially playoff hockey--taking its toll on his body.

There is no "right out of the gate." He's healthy enough to play, and he should be getting the minutes a cornerstone, $7M+ defenseman should be getting. You shouldn't need to ease a guy into the lineup, or insulate his minutes/responsibility with the kind of talent and salary Letang has. He's well rested and capable, he's just playing like garbage. For better or worse, you just have to ride it out and keep playing him in hopes he works through it.

Being healthy doesn't mean he was in game shape nor up to speed with a live game. They also asked him to change his game around and move the puck faster, instead of skating with it so much.

That's a lot to ask from him out of the gate. I think people forget sometimes that this is the highest level of hockey in the world and Letang isn't a robot that just powers on after being off for 7-8 mo.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Right, but THAT'S also part of the concern too. It's not like we're dealing with sci-fi put 'em in the bacta tank ****.

But, like I said, I see the pros to keeping him. I'd just like to see more discussion about when/if we would trade someone like Letang.

If Letang gets hurt and misses all of/most of the playoffs again, then I think they should seriously consider moving him. That is the only legit scenario where I would think it's an idea worth considering.