Should #68 be retired?

[Dying Alive]

Easy yes from me. I've rarely enjoyed watching a player in a Pens jersey as much as I enjoyed watching Jagr and he's one of the most important players in franchise history. Time to let bygones be bygones IMO. It seems like others are starting to agree - when the Devils were in town last month there was very little Jagr booing and even what there was seemed kind of half-hearted, more out of routine than anything.

 

[vikingGoalie]

"I would play for Mario for league minimum, because I owe him my career."

Not word for word, just going on memory.

edit: http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/penguins/s_744628.html#axzz3I1uD7SOm

Kind of funny when you consider the amount of "country club" and "35+ signing" complaints around here.

Make no mistake here, Ray Shero flat out did not want Jagr here. He offered a token contract so that he can't be seen as the total bad guy. But I'm convinced that Jagr could sense that Ray didn't want him and why he started shopping around. These guys (except maybe Jagr) have pretty short careers and I have no qualms about a guy getting paid what he is worth. Ray chose to keep TYLER KENNEDY over a top 5 all time winger who was instrumental in 2 cups and a long tenured former captain of our team.
I wonder, if Jagr had been wooed just a little bit and given that extra ~1M if he would still be on the team today... Think about it, he would easily, even NOW, be a top 6 winger on the current roster. Jagr-Malkin-Bennett would be a pretty decent line to throw over the boards.

Jagr *was* the team for a good number of years. There were years where the only reason our team was even relevant was because he was on it. If the team wasn't bankrupt, and was more competitive roster wise he probably wouldn't have been dieing alive and ultimately moved in a big dollar dump.

I think what the player meant to the team and for how long are the two biggest determiners of whether to raise that Jersey to the rafters.

Top 5 winger of all time, captain of the team/face of the franchise (when mario wasn't around), a bunch of scoring titles, two cups. If that doesn't qualify you then what the hell does?

 

[DegenX]

Make no mistake here, Ray Shero flat out did not want Jagr here. He offered a token contract so that he can't be seen as the total bad guy. But I'm convinced that Jagr could sense that Ray didn't want him and why he started shopping around. These guys (except maybe Jagr) have pretty short careers and I have no qualms about a guy getting paid what he is worth. Ray chose to keep TYLER KENNEDY over a top 5 all time winger who was instrumental in 2 cups and a long tenured former captain of our team.
I wonder, if Jagr had been wooed just a little bit and given that extra ~1M if he would still be on the team today... Think about it, he would easily, even NOW, be a top 6 winger on the current roster. Jagr-Malkin-Bennett would be a pretty decent line to throw over the boards.

Jagr *was* the team for a good number of years. There were years where the only reason our team was even relevant was because he was on it. If the team wasn't bankrupt, and was more competitive roster wise he probably wouldn't have been dieing alive and ultimately moved in a big dollar dump.

I think what the player meant to the team and for how long are the two biggest determiners of whether to raise that Jersey to the rafters.

Top 5 winger of all time, captain of the team/face of the franchise (when mario wasn't around), a bunch of scoring titles, two cups. If that doesn't qualify you then what the hell does?

Playing your entire career for the Pens. That's the standard that's been set with the two numbers that have been retired since 1967.

 

[Skk82]

Should be retired and shouldn't be a question. Still the 2nd best player in a storied franchise history (3rd or 4th at worst when 87 and 71 are done).

 

[Skk82]

Make no mistake here, Ray Shero flat out did not want Jagr here. He offered a token contract so that he can't be seen as the total bad guy.

Yep. And I'm sure the only reason Shero even offered it was the Mario connection.

But I'm convinced that Jagr could sense that Ray didn't want him and why he started shopping around.

This is clearly the case. Jagr said he was considering offers from Pittsburgh, Montreal, Detroit and Philadelphia that summer. Pittsburgh at $2.0 million he said was by far the lowest, which is believable given that he signed in Philly for $3.3 million.

I wonder, if Jagr had been wooed just a little bit and given that extra ~1M if he would still be on the team today... Think about it, he would easily, even NOW, be a top 6 winger on the current roster.

He would definitely be top 6 on the team right now.

Top 5 winger of all time, captain of the team/face of the franchise (when mario wasn't around), a bunch of scoring titles, two cups. If that doesn't qualify you then what the hell does?

Top 5 forward of all time, really. Certainly will end up that way in the NHL record books by the time he is done and that's with 2 lockouts, 1 strike and spending a few years in Russia.

If your standard is "Mario Lemieux or dies in a tragic accident" than no one measures up. (Even Sid). If the standard could be expanded to "top player in franchise's 47 year history other than Mario", then Jagr has to get in.

I'm all for the Pens not retiring a ton of numbers and really supported their decision not to retire Stevens, Francis, Barrasso.

If it were up to me 68 goes up the year after Jagr hangs 'em up. Then maybe one-day we'll see about 87 and 71, and after that nothing on the horizon until the next generational talent that spends a decade plus here.

 

[vikingGoalie]

Playing your entire career for the Pens. That's the standard that's been set with the two numbers that have been retired since 1967.

By that logic gretzky wouldn't have his number retired anywhere.

Brilliant.

One died after a year as a penguin. The other is in my mind the best player in the history of the nhl. Not a good basis for comparison.

 

[Coastal Kev]

He spent more time with other teams than with the Pens... The answer is NO

The guy crapped on the franchise and the city not once, but twice and then you want to bestow the greatest honor on him?? F that.... DEAD to me

 

[DegenX]

By that logic gretzky wouldn't have his number retired anywhere.

Brilliant.

One died after a year as a penguin. The other is in my mind the best player in the history of the nhl. Not a good basis for comparison.

Gretzky didn't play for the Pens. Not applicable. His number was also retired league wide, so, either way your argument doesn't apply.

Brière died, so we'll never know if his only season in the NHL was an anomaly or if he really would have been the 'star' player he was projected to be. Either way, both he and Mario spent their entire NHL careers with the Pens. That's the precedent. Jagr did not. Jagr also wore the 'C' and broke some records playing for the Rags ... let them retire his number.

 

[Michael8771*]

Nope.

 

[vikingGoalie]

Gretzky didn't play for the Pens. Not applicable. His number was also retired league wide, so, either way your argument doesn't apply.

Brière died, so we'll never know if his only season in the NHL was an anomaly or if he really would have been the 'star' player he was projected to be. Either way, both he and Mario spent their entire NHL careers with the Pens. That's the precedent. Jagr did not. Jagr also wore the 'C' and broke some records playing for the Rags ... let them retire his number.

The entire career thing that you're using is a straw man argument. No other team starts off by saying ok did player X play every second of their NHL career here. Gordie Howe anyone? The fact that the penguins have only retired 2, and those 2 fit that is not because it was a criteria for retirement. It was because of the special case for each. One died tragically very young after only one season, the other was the best player to ever play who saved the franchise. I don't think that provides justification for your argument. It's just two situations that happen to coincide with that criteria.

They were both born in Quebec as well. Are we saying that only players born in Quebec can have retired jerseys as well?

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this I think.

As far as those that think Jagr's actions removes him from consideration. Those arguments I can understand. I might not agree with them but I do understand them...

 

[scottrodo]

I think a jersey retirement of #68 would be unnecessary and gratuitous. Has Jagr been a great player? Yes. Has he spent all, or most of his career with the Pens? No. Parts of his career weren't even in the NHL. I favor very cautious number retirements. The Steelers just retired their second number! It was, of course, the number worn by the greatest Steeler of all time. If they were some attention seeking organization like Washington or Dallas, they'd have retired a couple dozen numbers by now. The point is that number retirement should be reserved for the truly great who outperform their contemporaries but who are not overtly self-serving.

 

[HandshakeLine]

By that logic gretzky wouldn't have his number retired anywhere.

Brilliant.

One died after a year as a penguin. The other is in my mind the best player in the history of the nhl. Not a good basis for comparison.

Did Gretzky ever play for the Pens? What does he have to do with the conversation, other than make the point that no player would play with such an iconic number anyway?

Let's turn this around-why should we be like every other franchise? What do the Pens gain by retiring a moody, unhappy alumnus's number, whose opinion of the team is questionable at best?

Also, just because some of us are arguing that he shouldn't have his number retired, does NOT mean that he shouldn't be honored. He should be honored, no doubt. But retire the number?

 

[brewski420]

This discussion is quite interesting and leads me to a few thoughts.

1. The discussion probably will be less polarizing once he is retired from the League for a few years.

2. I imagine those in the Pens organization may be as divided on the issue as on here.

3. It would seem that to retire a number it should be universally supported by all.

4. Putting him in 'ring of honor' while not giving the number out (don't know of anyone else in NHL using it). Or for that matter any player wanting it especially in Pens organization.

Bottom line is I am not for it but wouldn't be upset if it happened.

 

[vikingGoalie]

Did Gretzky ever play for the Pens? What does he have to do with the conversation, other than make the point that no player would play with such an iconic number anyway?

Let's turn this around-why should we be like every other franchise? What do the Pens gain by retiring a moody, unhappy alumnus's number, whose opinion of the team is questionable at best?

Also, just because some of us are arguing that he shouldn't have his number retired, does NOT mean that he shouldn't be honored. He should be honored, no doubt. But retire the number?

Ok Gretzky is a bad comparison since it was league wide I suppose, just Oilers and Kings put his jersey up in the rafters which is what I'm talking about, How about Gordie Howe, or Ray Borque for that matter. Both played elsewhere.

I'm just saying that the criteria *should* be what did that player mean to the franchise, and did he have some longevity at it. Ron Francis was an awesome player, but he was not *the* franchise at any point. Jagr was.

Now. as I said. I totally can understand someone's rationale that Jagr acted like an ass towards the end of his stay here, and that sours them on even thinking about retiring his jersey. I might disagree but I understand it.

Jagr was not just some guy who is really good that played for our team for 11 years. He was the team for a good number of years in that span. I remember those years and he was a big reason hockey was even relevant in Pittsburgh for a good span. He probably was the reason that that generation became Penguins fans.

I bet most of the naysayers would be singing a different tune if Ray would have opted to bring Jagr back instead of keeping TK. Jagr would've come back if the money was close, and he would've been given top 6 duties. Which still boggles my mind that Shero simply didn't want him. I bet GMJR would've brought him back.

I just disagree that playing your entire career for one team should be the requirement for consideration. Other teams don't do that because it doesn't make sense. So to answer the question why should we be like other teams? Well when it makes sense to do so, then you do...

 

[DegenX]

The entire career thing that you're using is a straw man argument. No other team starts off by saying ok did player X play every second of their NHL career here. Gordie Howe anyone? The fact that the penguins have only retired 2, and those 2 fit that is not because it was a criteria for retirement. It was because of the special case for each. One died tragically very young after only one season, the other was the best player to ever play who saved the franchise. I don't think that provides justification for your argument. It's just two situations that happen to coincide with that criteria.

They were both born in Quebec as well. Are we saying that only players born in Quebec can have retired jerseys as well?

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this I think.

As far as those that think Jagr's actions removes him from consideration. Those arguments I can understand. I might not agree with them but I do understand them...

Pretty sure that your comparisons with Gretzky and Howe are the actual straw men.

And to respond to your later post regarding paying TK vs. Jagr ... You seem to forget that Shero wasn't the only one who pulled an offer after Jagr and his agent tried to get a bidding war going. Holland pulled his, too. Jagr's camp was given a deadline and they chose to ignore it, so Shero moved on.

But, you are right ... just have to agree to disagree on this one. It's a divisive issue. That alone should be the answer to the question.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think it would be weird to see his name in the rafters as many times as it is up there (at least 6) without having a banner especially for him. He was here for the best part of one of the best careers in NHL history. His time here is what he will be most remembered for around the league.

 

[billybudd]

Has any player had their number retired while they were still active?
Who knows how much longer 68 plays. He still looked pretty dangerous in that game against us.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

4. Putting him in 'ring of honor' while not giving the number out (don't know of anyone else in NHL using it). Or for that matter any player wanting it especially in Pens organization.

Bottom line is I am not for it but wouldn't be upset if it happened.

Mike Hoffman of the Ottawa Senators wears No. 68. Probably was his number in training camp and he kept it. I have no issue with him or anyone else wearing #68. That's not what this is about. I also find it funny that people up here in Canada made a HUGE issue when Calgary's T.J. Brodie wore #66 for a few games when he first came into the NHL, but nobody seems to care about some of these other examples. Heck, Washington's Liam O'Brien wears #87. For all we know, it could be a tribute. Who cares, really.

I like the 'Ring of Honor' approach, while keeping the number active and in circulation. Toronto does a hybrid system where some numbers are completely retired (very few), while others are 'honored' but kept around.

Maybe that would be the solution to THIS issue with Jagr: keep the 'retired' numbers for only those who play their entire careers with the Penguins, and then 'honor' other guys who played a portion of their careers in Pittsburgh. That way, we could honor not just Jagr, but also Coffey, Francis, maybe even guys like Larouche and Pronovost.

I would have no problem with that (even know it's pretty ridiculous that people think Briere is more worthy of having his number 'retired' than Jagr does but whatever).

Has any player had their number retired while they were still active?
Who knows how much longer 68 plays. He still looked pretty dangerous in that game against us.

I THINK the answer to your question is Gordie Howe and Guy Lafleur, but with an asterisk to both. Howe's No. 9 was retired by Detroit and then when Hartford joined the NHL Howe wound up back in the NHL at age 52. Lafleur's No. 10 was retired by the Habs but after a four-year hiatus he decided to un-retire and joined the New York Rangers.

For the record, I never thought about the concept of retiring #68 BEFORE Jags actually retires from the NHL. I just assumed we were talking about retiring the number after he retires. SO yeah, maybe it's for several years down the road.

The easiest way to do it, of course, would be to reacquire him so that he can finish off his career here (and undo all of the stupidity of the past), but even that isn't 'easy' per se. Especially now that he's with the Devils.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Has any player had their number retired while they were still active?
Who knows how much longer 68 plays. He still looked pretty dangerous in that game against us.

well ya, I wouldn't retire it until he retires.

 

[billybudd]

So, assuming any hypothetical jersey retirement would happen several years after 68 retires, we're talking about whether or not something's done 4-15 years down the road.

That's a long time to a very long time from now, in which bridges can be mended or, potentially, further burned. Hell, who knows who's owning/running the team in 2025

 

[HandshakeLine]

And the OP still hasn't returned. Game respects game.

 

[ColePens]

^ on that note - the vote is sufficient.