Rumor: Sheltered ice time myth

[AntonCH]

To the OP, you are absolutely correct
Now can you please convince the 29 other GMs of Desharnais' value so we can finally trade the lil bugger?
I positively agree with you, what an underrated player - I want equal or better trade value!!

 

[ECWHSWI]

Didn't we figure out before that he took like 1 extra faceoff per game, at ES, in the offensive zone? Not as big of deal as its made out to be.


No one knows if he can handle those minutes though. He may do just fine.

Desharnais showed he can work hard and play well defensively in the playoffs. What he will never show is that he's better defensively than Plekanec. Why use him there when Plekanec is one of the best in the league.

The problem has been and will continue to be working depth. Our centre group is fine. Maybe no one elite, but four really good players ready to step in.

You can't give more minutes to the third line because Bourque takes the season off and our #9 has been a mix of Bournival, Prust, Moen, and Weise. Not getting sent out in offensive situations with that set up.

I'm hoping Andrighetto can steal a spot. He's capable of helping the third line be a threat.

52, 43 and 26 points.

come on now...

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

52, 43 and 26 points.

come on now...

20 years of losing and that's the standard for some people now. Ridiculous.

I'd be happy the day our first center is as good as the Kings or Bruins' 2nd center.

 

[Milhouse40]

No one knows if he can handle those minutes though. He may do just fine.

Desharnais showed he can work hard and play well defensively in the playoffs. What he will never show is that he's better defensively than Plekanec. Why use him there when Plekanec is one of the best in the league.

The problem has been and will continue to be working depth. Our centre group is fine. Maybe no one elite, but four really good players ready to step in.

You can't give more minutes to the third line because Bourque takes the season off and our #9 has been a mix of Bournival, Prust, Moen, and Weise. Not getting sent out in offensive situations with that set up.

I'm hoping Andrighetto can steal a spot. He's capable of helping the third line be a threat.

I'm not asking for DD to take the job of Plekanec, just his fair share of the work and let some sugar minutes to the ones who diserves it.

Andrighetto....nice prospect i agree ,there's also Thomas who doing well right now apparently.... but then again,both are 5'9 right winger who won't be able to play with DD, even Gallagher had some trouble putting points and that line was really small before Vanek arrive (Even after)! Will need to get rid of one of those small players eventually, just like they're eventually gonna get rid of one of our center.

They can kill two birds with one stone here!!

 

[Hoople]

Opposition isn't the only thing that affects "sheltering".

Zone starts is also a large factor, quite possibly a larger one. David Desharnais took 52.9% of his non-neutral zone faceoffs in the offensive zone, which may not seem like much but is the highest number on the Habs. Compare to Eller (43.7%) or even Plekanec (38.0%) and it becomes clear the other centers were placed in defensive situations more often to free up offensive starts for Desharnais.

That's not bad strategizing, as the centers certainly have different strengths, but it has to be considered when evaluating the relative performances of the Habs' centers. It's likely Malhotra will take a lot of those defensive faceoffs and Plekanec will likely be the biggest beneficiary.

Also when considering overall scoring numbers, don't forget to separate out special teams scoring. DD getting first-unit PP minutes and 50 seconds more than, say, Plekanec, helps, whereas Plekanec's PK minutes are hardly prime offensive opportunities.

You are a stats guy.

Find me the percentage of times that the line starting in the Ozone ends up playing defense in the DZone.

Surely there is a stat for that to give the Ozone start stat some context.

And that is a serious request. Thanks.

 

[Sorinth]

Can we put this to bed, I find it very annoying...

The group of "Desharnais bashers" as most on here call them, seem to be living on some parallel universe where his line gets "sheltered minutes" despite playing on the top offensive line an with the top scoring winger.

How can you get sheltered minutes when the opposing team(as much as they can) tries to put out their best checkers or shutdown defense to try and shut you down as a line? That's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. the funny part is that his numbers are better on the road...33 points in 41 games vs 19 points in 38 games at home...where an opposing coach can much better controls who is out against 51-67 most shifts given they play 17-20 minutes a night.

If you want to shelter a player(like Galchenyuk-Eller-Prust/Gallagher the lock out year), you send them out almost exclusively against 3rd or 4th line/3rd pair matchups and often in the offensive zone. This limits their ice time to 10-12 minutes a game as you can only insulate a player on limited ice time given how much top players and top pairs play in the NHL. Briere got a lot of those types of minutes last year.


...and the shame of it, Therrien sending out his best scorer on offensive zone draws...what horrible coaching! I'm sure Cooper only sends out Stamkos on defensive zone draws an saves the offensive ones for Nate Thompson.

On the Habs the most Non-sheltered minute are Desharnais' line, targeted by other teams to shut them down, and Plekanec playing against top lines and also being expected to produce on offense.

You have a very strange definition of sheltering. Most people refer to sheltering in reference to defensive responsibilities. Not too mention best defensive players is not the same as best players so your argument is flawed from the beginning.

Our coach can't control the opposition, he can control zone-starts. Therrien did what he could to shelter Desharnais using zone-starts. Just because there was some aspect that he had little control over meant Desharnais didn't have butter soft minutes doesn't mean he wasn't sheltered.

It's a bit flawed if it only considers the offensive output on the other side.

Facing Bergeron and Filippula make it harder to score than Stamos and Krejci for example. Both are hard matchups but in different ways. Or Chara instead of Krug...Krug has the same numbers but is a much easier opponent to score against.

So let's say you're the coach, and you have player X that you are trying to shelter. Do you put him in an offensive zone faceoff against Filppula or a defensive zone faceoff against Stamkos?

You can argue the o-zone faceoff against Filppula isn't sheltering him that much, but it's still much more sheltered then the d-zone faceoff against Stamkos.

 

[Whitesnake]

So let's say you're the coach, and you have player X that you are trying to shelter. Do you put him in an offensive zone faceoff against Filppula or a defensive zone faceoff against Stamkos?

You can argue the o-zone faceoff against Filppula isn't sheltering him that much, but it's still much more sheltered then the d-zone faceoff against Stamkos.

Yet, depending of how much we like or not a player, we will be seen as being sheltered for a certain player, will be seen as a wise usage for another. Incredible that at one point, we keep criticizing the coach for not having the right matchups, but when he does, he's "sheltering"??? Of course, the best would be to send whoever, but then that whoever is so great, that you don't shelter them....you just let other teams take care of your player. But we don't have a Bergeron. Nor a Stamkos or whoever. As great as he is, Plekanec does a fine job....but he's not top 20 in C of this league. But he's the best we've got defensively.

I can tell you this....the day that Therrien stops "sheltering" DD and starts using him more in the defensive zone, making Pacioretty produce less.....or making himself look bad defensively.....Therrien will go from "sheltering DD" to "being stupid for using DD in such manner". Frankly, there's no situation for Therrien to win here. And like I said before, putting him on the wings, I guess we could try, would not work and would be bashed.....Only thing people who keeps shouting "sheltering" wants is to see DD gone. And they totally don't care what we get in return. Personnally, while some don't think his usage is a wise decision as far as personnel management, I also believe that trading him, without knowing Galchy's situation, Pleks evolution or lack thereof and Eller improvement, is also not wise personnel management.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

If anything, last year was less balanced overall in terms of deployment, but two factors made a huge difference:

1- the Habs didn't get stuck in their own zone nearly as much (they had a much better transition game) so they had more offensive zone faceoffs than defensive ones, unlike this year where they were among the worst in the league for O-zone to D-zone faceoff ratio.

2- when there were defensive zone starts, they often went to the likes of Jeff Halpern and Colby Armstrong. The reliable, defensive fourth line was buried in the defensive zone, with Halpern getting a 27.4% non-neutral O-zone faceoff ratio. Yeah, the fourth line looked awful, and that was entirely by design.

The net result was that Plekanec was at 47.6% with this metric, Eller at 48.7%... and Desharnais at 61.1%. Everybody was pushed more towards the O-zone by factors 1 and 2 above, so of course they did better offensively. The rookie Gallys were also huge beneficiaries.

The offseason suggests that the org is hoping to recreate factor 2 with Malhotra taking the Halpern role. It was a hole that wasn't really filled last season, and the addition of Parros didn't help because he could not be relied on for defensive minutes when he was dressed.

Factor 1 will hopefully be recreated by a better, more skilled blueline with Gilbert on it and no Gorges and, especially, Murray. There's some question whether the chip-the-puck-away approach to transition was due to a conscious choice or simply because the D-men they dressed simply couldn't typically do better.

Very interesting ideas.

About the question in bold, I think that a confident Diaz playing top 4 min two seasons ago along with Emelin did a world of good for our transition compared to what we had at the start of the last season to replace both of them. Not sure what happened with Diaz and our coach's trust in him. He wasn't a hit with other teams either. Emelin played catch up all year after missing training camp + start of season.

Then we also had a guy like Parros who was completely useless and who was putting us in trouble every time he was on the ice, especially early on.

Gorges is also another guy who's got zero creativity with the puck. With Gorges + Murray + Bouillon in our top 6 early on, then a struggling Emelin later on.. not great.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Very interesting ideas.

About the question in bold, I think that a confident Diaz playing top 4 min two seasons ago along with Emelin did a world of good for our transition compared to what we had at the start of the last season to replace both of them. Not sure what happened with Diaz and our coach's trust in him. He wasn't a hit with other teams either. Emelin played catch up all year after missing training camp + start of season.

Then we also had a guy like Parros who was completely useless.

Gorges is also another guy who's got zero creativity with the puck. With Gorges + Murray + Bouillon in our top 6 early on, then a struggling Emelin later on.. not great.

Which is why we saw a marked difference in the offensive pressure Montreal was able to sustain with Beaulieu on defense.

 

[MXD]

20 years of losing and that's the standard for some people now. Ridiculous.

I'd be happy the day our first center is as good as the Kings or Bruins' 2nd center.

Tomas Plekanec is a better player than David Krejci...

 

[Rapala]

Which is why we saw a marked difference in the offensive pressure Montreal was able to sustain with Beaulieu on defense.

The turn around was remarkable and was felt immediately into the Bolts series when we gave up that first goal. Kidding aside the game strategy did a 180 long before Bollie dressed.
Not one Habs fan complained about that style of play or losing playing that way...

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Which is why we saw a marked difference in the offensive pressure Montreal was able to sustain with Beaulieu on defense.

If Gilbert comes as advertised then I hope we see a bit more offense this season.

 

[Hoople]

Which is why we saw a marked difference in the offensive pressure Montreal was able to sustain with Beaulieu on defense.[/QUOTE

And your point falls flat on its face when you look at the series against the Rangers.

Its not a "lets blame this or that player" issue. No, it is more a failure of the systems that Therrien employed last season.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

And your point falls flat on its face when you look at the series against the Rangers.

Its not a "lets blame this or that player" issue. No, it is more a failure of the systems that Therrien employed last season.

The rangers did beat quite a few teams with good offense (pittsburgh and philly). The regular season =/= conference finals. Small sample against a team with a great goalie firing on all cylinders as opposed to a bigger sample against a variety of teams.. some of them not so good. How do you explain how we played against TB versus how we played against NYR ? Do you think MT willingly used a worse system ? The guys at the helm aren't completely Pejorative Slured no matter what you guys love to think.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Yet, depending of how much we like or not a player, we will be seen as being sheltered for a certain player, will be seen as a wise usage for another. Incredible that at one point, we keep criticizing the coach for not having the right matchups, but when he does, he's "sheltering"??? Of course, the best would be to send whoever, but then that whoever is so great, that you don't shelter them....you just let other teams take care of your player. But we don't have a Bergeron. Nor a Stamkos or whoever. As great as he is, Plekanec does a fine job....but he's not top 20 in C of this league. But he's the best we've got defensively.

I can tell you this....the day that Therrien stops "sheltering" DD and starts using him more in the defensive zone, making Pacioretty produce less.....or making himself look bad defensively.....Therrien will go from "sheltering DD" to "being stupid for using DD in such manner". Frankly, there's no situation for Therrien to win here. And like I said before, putting him on the wings, I guess we could try, would not work and would be bashed.....Only thing people who keeps shouting "sheltering" wants is to see DD gone. And they totally don't care what we get in return. Personnally, while some don't think his usage is a wise decision as far as personnel management, I also believe that trading him, without knowing Galchy's situation, Pleks evolution or lack thereof and Eller improvement, is also not wise personnel management.

the real issue, and i'd assume it's the same for other posters, is that the sheltering is given to a 50 pts player...

does Crosby get more Ozone starts ? probably, but hey! on an injury free season he'll get you 100+ pts... does Stamkos get favourable matchups ? probably too, but the guy can score 50...

on the Habs, we HAVE to give favourable mathup to our #1C so he may get 50 pts...

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

When DD gets traded or leaves via Free Agency, I have no doubt the Habs will lose some fans.

 

[lou4gehrig]

I think the sheltering comments pertain to the fact that DD gets a disproportionate amount of opportunities offensively while other players are carrying his load defensively. And he merely gets those opportunities for the fact that some believe he makes MaxPac go. And the evidence to show demonstrate this is hard to find, so basically he's getting the primo top line PP minutes with PK, MaxPac, etc. as a reward without doing the dirty work.

Imagine Bergeron's numbers if he didn't have to PK or go against every other teams top center?

 

[lou4gehrig]

When DD gets traded or leaves via Free Agency, I have no doubt the Habs will lose some fans.

No doubt. However, there will be more than enough happy Habs fans to make up for it. DD is a good player and has achieved alot, but he's just limited. Having him at top line center makes us a good, but not a great team. Not until Galchenyuk is allowed that position will this team have a legit shot at a cup. That's not DD's fault. That's God's fault for making Gal a potential franchise center and DD short.

 

[Kriss E]

Until the game is on the line...

No. Krejci still gets more minutes.

That's like saying Plekanec is behind Desharnais.

Pleks and Bergy are clearly the most important.

Not at all. Plekanec gets more ice time than DD. Krejci gets more ice time than Bergeron, even at ES.

 

[Runner77]

When DD gets traded or leaves via Free Agency, I have no doubt the Habs will lose some fans.

Will be offset by new fans of the incoming player.

The real myth is how someone was able to start another disguised DD thread and how no one has been able to shelter HF from it, already 3 pages deep.

 

[MathMan]

Find me the percentage of times that the line starting in the Ozone ends up playing defense in the DZone.

While there's not a stat that will tell you this directly, that is where the possession numbers (Corsi and Fenwick) will give you an excellent approximation. After all, you aren't going to be taking shots for if you're not in the offensive zone and you're not going to take shots against if you're not in the defensive zone.

Corsi and Fenwick were compared to zone time (measured with a stopwatch) and found to be close enough the difference doesn't matter.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

the real issue, and i'd assume it's the same for other posters, is that the sheltering is given to a 50 pts player...

does Crosby get more Ozone starts ? probably, but hey! on an injury free season he'll get you 100+ pts... does Stamkos get favourable matchups ? probably too, but the guy can score 50...

on the Habs, we HAVE to give favourable mathup to our #1C so he may get 50 pts...

So that we may finish high in the standings and do well in the playoffs. You forget about that. The players are used properly.

DD only makes 3.5M. So yeah our center getting the most O-zone starts isn't a star player... His cap hit reflects that. But we're still spending close to the cap. That means that our strength is elsewhere. On the wing with Pacioretty, or another center in Plekanec. On D with Subban and Markov and in net with Price.They have higher cap hits and are better players. DD is a support player in a crucial role. Ideally you'd want a star player in that spot. But we don't have that player at the moment.

Eventually Galchenyuk will replace DD. Perhaps even this season. Would be great if people could stop crying about the present situation so much because there's not much MB can do about it but wait until Galchenyuk grows into a better player. AG will have the whole camp to show what he can do at center.

DD is hardly bringing the team down. He's actually contributing to our success considering how low a cap hit he has. But instead of seeing him as an asset people cry non-stop about his presence on the team and how terrible he is. It's almost childlike how some of you get on his case non-stop. Try to move on.

When DD gets traded or leaves via Free Agency, I have no doubt the Habs will lose some fans.

When DD gets traded or leaves via free agency, I wonder which poor local player will the HF blood hounds turn their attention to.

 

[WeThreeKings]

So that we may finish high in the standings and do well in the playoffs. You forget about that. The players are used properly.

DD only makes 3.5M. So yeah our center getting the most O-zone starts isn't a star player... His cap hit reflects that. But we're still spending close to the cap. That means that our strength is elsewhere. On the wing with Pacioretty, or another center in Plekanec. On D with Subban and Markov and in net with Price.They have higher cap hits and are better players. DD is a support player in a crucial role. Ideally you'd want a star player in that spot. But we don't have that player at the moment.

Eventually Galchenyuk will replace DD. Perhaps even this season. Would be great if people could stop crying about the present situation so much because there's not much MB can do about it but wait until Galchenyuk grows into a better player. AG will have the whole camp to show what he can do at center.

DD is hardly bringing the team down. He's actually contributing to our success considering how low a cap hit he has. But instead of seeing him as an asset people cry non-stop about his presence on the team and how terrible he is. It's almost childlike how some of you get on his case non-stop. Try to move on.



When DD gets traded or leaves via free agency, I wonder which poor local player will the HF blood hounds turn their attention to.

The frustration comes from last season when Desharnais was not doing anything. Even though that happened, Galchenyuk was never given a fair shot to see what he could do at center. He had one period against the St. Louis Blues, which was unfair to Galchenyuk, they didn't give him any time and they put him against one of the tougher teams to audition as well.

When Desharnais was struggling mightily, Therrien just kept screwing everything around to get Desharnais going. When Eller struggled, there wasn't anything done. The frustration comes from the optics that Therrien would do anything to get Desharnais to produce but did not want to do the same with Eller nor did he want to do the same with Galchenyuk at center.

We all want to accelerate the process of Galchenyuk at center. Now that we are seeing that there is progression in this direction, it's natural that we get excited and start to nitpick at Desharnais. Really now the frustration comes from that, hypothetically, if Galchenyuk wins the center spot, there's still people who are not willing to admit that Eller should stay at center and Desharnais should either convert to wing or ship out.

 

[Rapala]

No. Krejci still gets more minutes.

All minutes are not created equal.
I stand by the statement Bergeron is the go to guy when the game is on the line.
Give the Leafs a shout they can confirm. (see playoffs 2012.)

 

[Kriss E]

All minutes are not created equal.
I stand by the statement Bergeron is the go to guy when the game is on the line.
Give the Leafs a shout they can confirm. (see playoffs 2012.)

That depends in the position they're in. They use Krejci-Bergeron like we use DD-Plek.
Krejci is the one that gets the more off.zone starts and faces weaker opposition compared to Bergeron. So if Boston is trailing, it's Krejci's line. If they're protecting a lead, it's Bergeron.