Sheldon Keefe Discussion

[LeafsNation75]

Dubas gave him arguably the worst backup goalie the Leafs had in the past 20 years, in fact I don't think it's arguable, I am refering specifically to Hutchinson but Sparks is on that list too.

You can't give your coach 1 goalie, Andersen is not, Brodeur, nobody is you can't have a guy play 70+ games you need 2 goalies now.

Dubas's refusal to address the backup for nearly a year and a cost this team probably about 30 points total from September 2018-Febuary 2020.

You talk about the Muzzin trade that's a great trade but it wasn't enough and I said it at the time. When Martin Marincin is ONE injury from playing that's not enough.

Dubas did not provide Mike Babcock with the proper depth.

It looks like He's done that for Keefe, or at least tried to we will see if it works, for Dubas's sake it better because I'm not sure how many more times this team can lose in round 1 before we start looking at management

Without a doubt Dubas screwed up choosing Sparks over McElhinney going into the 2018-19 Season and having Hutchinson as the #2 Goalie last year.

However the problem was also Babcock not refusing to change his mind on always playing the #2 Goalie on the second night of a back to back, because that's also a setup for failure.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Without a doubt Dubas screwed up choosing Sparks over McElhinney going into the 2018-19 Season and having Hutchinson as the #2 Goalie last year.

However the problem was also Babcock not refusing to change his mind on always playing the #2 Goalie on the second night of a back to back, because that's also a setup for failure.

People keep saying that but to me that's just the job of the backup, they are going to play the 2nd game in 2 nights that's what they do.

I expect Jack Campbell to play January 16 against Ottawa and I expect Jack Campbell to win that game because that's his job

 

[LeafsNation75]

People keep saying that but to me that's just the job of the backup, they are going to play the 2nd game in 2 nights that's what they do.

I expect Jack Campbell to play January 16 against Ottawa and I expect Jack Campbell to win that game because that's his job

Except last season as an example when Babcock was still the coach here was a time Hutchinson should have played the first night of a back to back. On October 21 Toronto was playing Columbus and the next night on October 22 they were playing Boston. However like he always did Babcock started Andersen in the first game because he wanted the Leafs to have their best chance at getting 2 points. They lost 4-3 in overtime. Against Boston he started Hutchinson and they lost 4-2.

Babcock should have done the opposite because in Andersen's career he is 12-3-0 with a .926 SV% and a 2.49 GAA against Boston. Never mind the fact it was a divisional game.

Plus a few days earlier on October 19 Toronto defeated Boston 4-3 in overtime with Andersen playing.

 

[Menzinger]

Dubas gave him arguably the worst backup goalie the Leafs had in the past 20 years, in fact I don't think it's arguable, I am refering specifically to Hutchinson but Sparks is on that list too.

You can't give your coach 1 goalie, Andersen is not, Brodeur, nobody is you can't have a guy play 70+ games you need 2 goalies now.

Dubas's refusal to address the backup for nearly a year and a cost this team probably about 30 points total from September 2018-Febuary 2020.

You talk about the Muzzin trade that's a great trade but it wasn't enough and I said it at the time. When Martin Marincin is ONE injury from playing that's not enough.

Dubas did not provide Mike Babcock with the proper depth.

It looks like He's done that for Keefe, or at least tried to we will see if it works, for Dubas's sake it better because I'm not sure how many more times this team can lose in round 1 before we start looking at management

You raised I think a fair critique of Dubas acting slow on the backup situstion (though Campbell looks like the ideal guy for the job), BUT Babcock certainly did himself few favors regarding team depth - like his outright refusal to try Holl out

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

You raised I think a fair critique of Dubas acting slow on the backup situstion (though Campbell looks like the ideal guy for the job), BUT Babcock certainly did himself few favors regarding team depth - like his outright refusal to try Holl out

Holl isn't very good either, he looks good with Muzzin because Muzzin carries him and that was proven the second Muzzin got hurt VS Columbus.

Once Muzzin went down Holl went to shit, Holl needs to be bumped out of that top 4 and onto to that bottom pair.

Once Muzzin went down Holl proved he's not a real top 4 D man

 

[LeafsNation75]

Holl isn't very good either, he looks good with Muzzin because Muzzin carries him and that was proven the second Muzzin got hurt VS Columbus.

Once Muzzin went down Holl went to shit, Holl needs to be bumped out of that top 4 and onto to that bottom pair.

Once Muzzin went down Holl proved he's not a real top 4 D man

So you don't think it's possible that Holl could have improved since last season?

 

[nuck]

You raised I think a fair critique of Dubas acting slow on the backup situstion (though Campbell looks like the ideal guy for the job), BUT Babcock certainly did himself few favors regarding team depth - like his outright refusal to try Holl out

I'm not sure if thats correct about Babs and Holl. In 18-19 they still had Hainsey and Zaitsev and had brought Oz over so there really wasn't a spot, plus he didn't do all that much in the 11 games he did get in to. Last year KD added Ceci and Barrie over the summer and those two had to get some big minutes to justify their acquisition. Barrie was the marquee addition and I don't think Dubas paid Ceci $4M to be on the 3rd pairing. The Holl usage might have been a rare situation where Babcock was giving the new guys the minutes his GM expected. I think Keefe probably had to get permission to start rolling back Ceci's minutes in favor of Holl December.

As far as Dubas acting slow on the backup hindsight is 20-20. Hutch was a career .905 guy with .914 in five games the previous year. It was reasonable to assume he wasn't a .886 guy and that he would start to have some better showings. That was wrong of course but the expectation that he would find the level of his previous 100 games makes sense. He guessed wrong on Sparks as well. I don't know if Babs had any input on those deals but I suppose not. The smart thing would have been to find some way to keep McBackup. Again great hindsight.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

Blocked shots since Tavares got here
Marner 80
Tavares 84

Not true. I checked. This is career totals.

 

[The Podium]

Not true. I checked. This is career totals.

What?! you certainly did not check

 

[Menzinger]

I'm not sure if thats correct about Babs and Holl. In 18-19 they still had Hainsey and Zaitsev and had brought Oz over so there really wasn't a spot, plus he didn't do all that much in the 11 games he did get in to. Last year KD added Ceci and Barrie over the summer and those two had to get some big minutes to justify their acquisition. Barrie was the marquee addition and I don't think Dubas paid Ceci $4M to be on the 3rd pairing. The Holl usage might have been a rare situation where Babcock was giving the new guys the minutes his GM expected. I think Keefe probably had to get permission to start rolling back Ceci's minutes in favor of Holl December.

As far as Dubas acting slow on the backup hindsight is 20-20. Hutch was a career .905 guy with .914 in five games the previous year. It was reasonable to assume he wasn't a .886 guy and that he would start to have some better showings. That was wrong of course but the expectation that he would find the level of his previous 100 games makes sense. He guessed wrong on Sparks as well. I don't know if Babs had any input on those deals but I suppose not. The smart thing would have been to find some way to keep McBackup. Again great hindsight.

The Holl situation was definitely abnormal. There were a few media articles written about it -he was essentially banished to the press box. I find it hard to believe that Babcock couldn't have found a few extra games to try him out more. And considering Dubas had been a backer of Holl since he was an AGM, I doubt he supported Babcock's lack of interest in playing him.

The fact that Holl instantly clicked with Muzzin once he finally got an extended look certainly doesn't look great for Babcock in that regard.

Babcock clashed with Lou on player personnel decisions sometimes (Martin) too, so not a new thing for Babcock. For better or for worse, Babs is a guy who seemingly develops very firm opinions on guys. Sometimes it made sense, other times it was frustrating to watch

 

[LeafsNation75]

The Holl situation was definitely abnormal. There were a few media articles written about it -he was essentially banished to the press box. I find it hard to believe that Babcock couldn't have found a few extra games to try him out more. And considering Dubas had been a backer of Holl since he was an AGM, I doubt he supported Babcock's lack of interest in playing him.

The fact that Holl instantly clicked with Muzzin once he finally got an extended look certainly doesn't look great for Babcock in that regard.

Babcock clashed with Lou on player personnel decisions sometimes (Martin) too, so not a new thing for Babcock. For better or for worse, Babs is a guy who seemingly develops very firm opinions on guys. Sometimes it made sense, other times it was frustrating to watch

At the start of the 2017-18 Season despite Lou signing Dominic Moore as a UFA and the assumed 4th line Centre, he was made a healthy scratch a few times because Babcock played Eric Fehr instead.

Also look at how Babcock hated Jason Spezza and how he treated him despite Dubas sinning him, especially telling the media not being sure of his role and making him a healthy scratch when Toronto played Ottawa in their season opener last season.

 

[Menzinger]

Holl isn't very good either, he looks good with Muzzin because Muzzin carries him and that was proven the second Muzzin got hurt VS Columbus.

Once Muzzin went down Holl went to shit, Holl needs to be bumped out of that top 4 and onto to that bottom pair.

Once Muzzin went down Holl proved he's not a real top 4 D man

We can go back on forth on where Holl deserves to be in the lineupn- be it as a #4 or #5, but regardless Babcock didn't see any role for Holl on the roster. He wasn't willing to use all the assets availible to him, which is why i found his pov that the team lacked depth to be somewhat hypocritical.

Again, Babcock was right about some things with the team but he also made his fair share of errors too.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I'm not sure if thats correct about Babs and Holl. In 18-19 they still had Hainsey and Zaitsev and had brought Oz over so there really wasn't a spot, plus he didn't do all that much in the 11 games he did get in to. Last year KD added Ceci and Barrie over the summer and those two had to get some big minutes to justify their acquisition. Barrie was the marquee addition and I don't think Dubas paid Ceci $4M to be on the 3rd pairing. The Holl usage might have been a rare situation where Babcock was giving the new guys the minutes his GM expected. I think Keefe probably had to get permission to start rolling back Ceci's minutes in favor of Holl December.

As far as Dubas acting slow on the backup hindsight is 20-20. Hutch was a career .905 guy with .914 in five games the previous year. It was reasonable to assume he wasn't a .886 guy and that he would start to have some better showings. That was wrong of course but the expectation that he would find the level of his previous 100 games makes sense. He guessed wrong on Sparks as well. I don't know if Babs had any input on those deals but I suppose not. The smart thing would have been to find some way to keep McBackup. Again great hindsight.

Even if Hutchinson had played up to his career average of 905 that's still not good enough.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Engvall is in the Keefe doghouse. I’ll be watching closely how it goes with this guy. He got his contract and disappeared. It might be a total disappearance off the team. I think he won’t even be on the Taxi squad. He is basically plunk smack dab in the middle of the same decision process that seen Goat let go. Marlies contract seems to be a given.
Travis Boyd will replace him

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Why not the people that picked the players?

Hockey has always been 80% about recruiting/developing and 20% about coaching as per Toe/Scotty ... i doubt things have really changed in past 10 years on that front except CBA CAP which has placed more importance on drafting ... it means we have picked wrong players if we always lose 1st round ... and that falls on GM/President hockey where da axe must drop ... does not mean we don't have 10 good players who new GM would keep ... it means hockey team/GM has not figured out right MIX of guys .. constant change each year like Leafs tells you people are scrambling ...

 

[sparxx87]

Without a doubt Dubas screwed up choosing Sparks over McElhinney going into the 2018-19 Season and having Hutchinson as the #2 Goalie last year.

However the problem was also Babcock not refusing to change his mind on always playing the #2 Goalie on the second night of a back to back, because that's also a setup for failure.

I’m not saying I agree with his lack of leniency, but the b2b worked fine with McElhinney, didn’t it?

When you’re used to having two NHL goalies and your method has worked for you, it’s easy to want to stick with it.

 

[hullsy47]

Except last season as an example when Babcock was still the coach here was a time Hutchinson should have played the first night of a back to back. On October 21 Toronto was playing Columbus and the next night on October 22 they were playing Boston. However like he always did Babcock started Andersen in the first game because he wanted the Leafs to have their best chance at getting 2 points. They lost 4-3 in overtime. Against Boston he started Hutchinson and they lost 4-2.

Babcock should have done the opposite because in Andersen's career he is 12-3-0 with a .926 SV% and a 2.49 GAA against Boston. Never mind the fact it was a divisional game.

Plus a few days earlier on October 19 Toronto defeated Boston 4-3 in overtime with Andersen playing.

 

[zeke]

Exactly the reason Babs didn't want him. He saw first hand what was missing in his game

what's weird about this claim is that Babs clearly liked Tavares and used him as his #1C AHEAD of Matthews.

He gave his binky Hyman to Tavares, and gave him his best winger Marner too. All year long. While Matthews had to make do with Marleau and Johnsson and Brown and only sometimes Nylander.

 

[Sypher04]

what's weird about this claim is that Babs clearly liked Tavares and used him as his #1C AHEAD of Matthews.

He gave his binky Hyman to Tavares, and gave him his best winger Marner too. All year long. While Matthews had to make do with Marleau and Johnsson and Brown and only sometimes Nylander.

Yeah twowingcantfly is clearly living in some kind of alternate reality

 

[Twowingcantfly]

Yeah twowingcantfly is clearly living in some kind of alternate reality

LOL. I Know U? Bottom line. Babs made many positive changes to the attitude of Leaf fans. For the first time this generation of Leaf fans got to see first hand an elevated level of hockey. Thank you Shanahan. Thank you Babs. This group will win a cup(3-4) years from now.

 

[Leafs at Knight]

Stop fooling around Keefe, stack the top PP unit.

 

[The Podium]

Stop fooling around Keefe, stack the top PP unit.

Ya this balanced unit approach didn’t look great.

Go back to what worked and run this on PP2:

Robertson/Hyman - Spezza - Simmonds
Thornton - Lehtonen/Brodie

Looks terrible but won’t matter if the PP1 scores more often than not

 

[Mickey Marner]

We definitely need to find a way to win without playing Matthews and Marner 25 minutes. They'll be fatigued by the time the playoffs roll around.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Stop fooling around Keefe, stack the top PP unit.

Malholtra will get some rope to test this out.

2 power play goals last night will help give him some confidence.

 

[Stephen]

I wonder if we see bad cop Keefe after an effort like the second period in Ottawa? I feel like by the end of his tenure here this group will have turned him into Mike Babcock...