Tribute Sheldon Keefe Discussion Part 2

[Superstar]

Once they use that tracking data to measure the overage speed of a Leafs player/speed of the puck on one of those reload plays, I think they'll quickly find that not only does the drop drop pass not clear out more runway to build speed but it reduces the attack speed of everyone else, and creates a wall of players (opposition defense and teammates) that end up limiting entry points into the opponent's end. By the time the puck carrier gets to an opening they have to reduce speed anyway.

The reload isn't a bad tactic, but just like a spin-o-rama, you should be using it in very rare instances to build the element of surprise and disruption, not your bread and butter. As an opposition defense, if you see the Leafs winding up just have everyone line up the blueline. You're laughing.

This is right on...that's what other teams have figured out and that's what they've been doing, and since the Leafs lack a good cycle game, they are easy to shut down when they can't score on the PP...also, the reloading element allows the other team time to change lines and also regroup at their blue line or in the neutral zone...it's a double edged sword.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Once they use that tracking data to measure the overage speed of a Leafs player/speed of the puck on one of those reload plays, I think they'll quickly find that not only does the drop drop pass not clear out more runway to build speed but it reduces the attack speed of everyone else, and creates a wall of players (opposition defense and teammates) that end up limiting entry points into the opponent's end. By the time the puck carrier gets to an opening they have to reduce speed anyway.

The reload isn't a bad tactic, but just like a spin-o-rama, you should be using it in very rare instances to build the element of surprise and disruption, not your bread and butter. As an opposition defense, if you see the Leafs winding up just have everyone line up the blueline. You're laughing.

Thats just obvious to see isn’t it! Its a mess of a tactic. Wingers on the walls in the defensive zone and exit the zone with speed and see how many walls we run in to at the offensive zone then. The opponents defense can’t pinch when the have to cover the winger on the wall. They have to stay back and the winger dictates how high he wants to keep them. Its worked for ever as long as the two wingers cover their defensive responsibilities. We get owned in our own zone for way to long and they pinch as much as they like on our box. I don’t know, i just dont get it anymore

 

[Wafflewhipper]

We're okay until Holl tries to pull a Bobby Orr and gives the puck away for a high danger scoring chance or a goal...which has been too frequent...and as good as Sandin has been, he can't defend in front of the net, which has resulted in goals...so collectively, the numbers might look better, but when the D gives the puck away, it results in some serious mad scrambles or it goes in the net too often.

They have no options to pass to. The box is sh!t. Agressive pressure wins. The system sucks

 

[Stephen]

This is right on...that's what other teams have figured out and that's what they've been doing, and since the Leafs lack a good cycle game, they are easy to shut down when they can't score on the PP...also, the reloading element allows the other team time to change lines and also regroup at their blue line or in the neutral zone...it's a double edged sword.

Also, the second part of this neutral zone nightmare is they can just shunt the puck carrier to the outside, and since the Leafs lack players who enjoy cutting in to center ice or driving into traffic, you basically have very low skill teams with size having a pretty easy time shutting down the mighty Maple Leafs. Which is how the California road trip bore out.

 

[killer1980]

Willing to give Keefe a pass. Dubas dealt him a hand A, 2,4,6,7. Have no idea what Keefe is really capable of given the team he has to work with. I am saying team. There certainly are a lot of talented individuals but Dubas has not created a cohesive unit. Hoping that Dubas and Shanahan are sent packing after Leafs early exit this year. After that, I'll give Keefe a chance with a better developed team.

 

[DarkKnight]

We shouldn't have fired Babs in all honesty. He wasn't the issue. It was clear to see (not picking on you). It's the make up of the team. It's just not right. It's that simple.

But we had to fire Babcock to get here. He was an obsessive distraction that disallowed any true review of the team.

 

[deletethis]

We shouldn't have fired Babs in all honesty. He wasn't the issue. It was clear to see (not picking on you). It's the make up of the team. It's just not right. It's that simple.

As an old timer, I've seen this scenario before with the Leafs and elsewhere in the league and other leagues. It's too comfortable, too player friendly here now. There are no expectations of higher levels of professionalism any longer. The group is so fricking talented that they're producing somewhat, far below potential, on sheer skill metered out in timely bursts. The closest thing to this is the decade of uneven hockey produced by the Caps lead by Ovechkin.

 

[saffronleaf]

bout time sheldon shuffles the lineup a bit, especially the top 6. consider reuniting 34+88 / 91+16 or something else to shuffle things up.

get to it.

 

[saffronleaf]

The link was bolded. Also hilarity to suggest that’s a small sample size, given his overall tenure. Seems the narrative crack is irony I suppose.

Look, I like Keefe a lot, but I was under the mindset the first 20 games would be a mix of adrenaline, fresh starts, all ears, wanting to prove it was the coach. Not that he doesn’t deserve some credit but part of the change thinking is just change itself. I also recall shit goaltending earlier this year, so talk about selective?

the only good month of goaltending was in november, primarily to the Cock's benefit. coach change was nov 21

 

[saffronleaf]

lmao. I'm sorry but aside from the PK part, this is too funny. I guess eye tests aren't too reliable but i watch almost every other team in the league and we're a complete joke defensively. It's no wonder Andersen has never had a worse save % and even poor Campbell(who might actually be better) is struggling(so many big saves) playing with this group. But then again, you can't expect anything else from the numbers people..It's why we are in this shitty situation.

lol so you talk about getting insecure with raw numbers and then you get really insecure about freddy's abysmal pathetic echl backup save% by dismissing it away.

 

[saffronleaf]

What is the practical application of these advanced stats exercises? Seems like the conclusion is often to show how surprisingly good everything is under a regime the community supports. And then what, wait for the sample size to be large enough to bear out? How's 82 games and possibly a missed playoff? What do we do with this information in the offseason? Don't acquire more defensive help?

use this information to make sure you don't re-sign freddy and try to find any and all goaltending help

 

[Advanced stats]

Fixing our suddenly stagnant Power play would have gone a long ways toward collecting a few more points in California.

It's clearly easy to defend as any pk unit can tell that the shots are trying to come from Matthews or Tavares.

Moving Marner off the left half wall, and replacing him with Barrie who is more of a shooting threat is such an easy change.
Marner and Barrie can still run the PP, but it opens up so many more options, as Barrie loves to shoot.

If you don't like the idea of Marner at the top of the PP, Rielly could also run it when he returns, adding the threat of a point shot. Bump marner to PP2 to teach him a lesson.


We were 0/9 on the PP in Cali. Clearly there were some missed opportunities there.

 

[Stephen]

use this information to make sure you don't re-sign freddy and try to find any and all goaltending help

Markstrom would be an interesting target. Offload Andersen in the mean time.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Also, the second part of this neutral zone nightmare is they can just shunt the puck carrier to the outside, and since the Leafs lack players who enjoy cutting in to center ice or driving into traffic, you basically have very low skill teams with size having a pretty easy time shutting down the mighty Maple Leafs. Which is how the California road trip bore out.

So simple to have two players breaking through with speed as you dump the puck when they are ten feet from the blueline with speed. The dump chase-beats it easily. Is that to hard to figure out when you are dizzy spinning in circles trying to figure out why you can’t figure it out ha. Its a stinking disaster we are watching. Keefe has a record the last 23 games a point better than Babcocks first 23 games.

So now its a multitude of things being done wrong and executed wrong over and over and over again. Brain dead, no ideas on how to change is ruining the team.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

use this information to make sure you don't re-sign freddy and try to find any and all goaltending help

You know you have bad timing when you complain about freddy who has 9 of the possible last 12 points eh

 

[DarkKnight]

the only good month of goaltending was in november, primarily to the Cock's benefit. coach change was nov 21

Come on man, the backup didn’t get a point and Freddy was up and down. Goaltending thing is lame imho.

 

[likecheese]

Fixing our suddenly stagnant Power play would have gone a long ways toward collecting a few more points in California.

It's clearly easy to defend as any pk unit can tell that the shots are trying to come from Matthews or Tavares.

Moving Marner off the left half wall, and replacing him with Barrie who is more of a shooting threat is such an easy change.
Marner and Barrie can still run the PP, but it opens up so many more options, as Barrie loves to shoot.

If you don't like the idea of Marner at the top of the PP, Rielly could also run it when he returns, adding the threat of a point shot. Bump marner to PP2 to teach him a lesson.


We were 0/9 on the PP in Cali. Clearly there were some missed opportunities there.

And he had Willy, if nobody else, in full gear. Saddled next to Tavares. Everybody here, including the broadcasters and commentators begging to move him next to Matthews for a period.
Tavares stinks 3-on-3? No matter, here you go again.
Marner and Matthews no idea on the shootout? No matter, here you go again.
Power play stale and everybody has it figured out? No matter, keep throwing it out there.
He's gone from full experimental mode (Aberg 2 games on the first line, seeing how many times he could actually touch the puck, moving Engvall to center when he was flying on the wing, etc) to complete paralysis.
He's panicking under adversity, setting the tone for everybody else.

 

[PromisedLand]

Keefe has started to piss me off. He is Babcock part 2 (may be even worse). Guy just stays staus-quo when the team is trailing doesn't change his lines to get anything going;

Would it kill him to put Nylander with Matthews and Marner with JT; or double shift someone (Matthews, Nylander, Marner) on the third line like WTF

Babcock would take his own sweet time to make any in game adjustment but he would make it by the 3rd period at least; Keefe looks like has no understanding of in-game adjustment he f***ing sticks to his lines and it is PAINFUL as a fan.

Change some shit if it isn't working ffs

 

[DavePoulin4PM]

Keefe doesn’t make adjustments. It is no surprise to anyone who follows OHL hockey. The same thing happened in the OHL. When teams tightened the screws Keefe had no answers. I have seen him first hand get absolutely embarrassed in the OHL.

The Leafs are at a major disadvantage with him behind the bench. Do you think the Leafs have a chance against let’s say a team like Philly with AV and Michel Therrien? Keefe showed major flaws at the OHL level, and they’re showing up at this level, obviously. He is simply not a tactician, and all he did in the OHL was underachieve compared to their talent level. He used scare tactics as a coach in the OHL. Now in the NHL he has no idea how to deal with multi millionaires. Keefe needs to go back to the OHL, and actually accomplish something and he will maybe get another chance in the NHL later on. He is still young.. but it’s not going to work out here. He’s not ready to be a coach at this level. The Leafs need to clean house before things really go off the rails.

No one should be upset that Babcock got fired. Everyone has a shelf life, and Babs time was up. People should be upset that the HC is Sheldon Keefe. Vegas saw a clear upgrade and went for it hiring Pete Deboer. The Leafs hired Kyle Dubas’ buddy. There is one way to run an organization and there is another way.

 

[thewave]

Word on the street that Keefe isn't good enough now to run Dubas' vision. Need a new Babcock to see the vision and when new Babcock fails it will be because of the media or some other things.

 

[Stephen]

So simple to have two players breaking through with speed as you dump the puck when they are ten feet from the blueline with speed. The dump chase-beats it easily. Is that to hard to figure out when you are dizzy spinning in circles trying to figure out why you can’t figure it out ha. Its a stinking disaster we are watching. Keefe has a record the last 23 games a point better than Babcocks first 23 games.

So now its a multitude of things being done wrong and executed wrong over and over and over again. Brain dead, no ideas on how to change is ruining the team.

I think the default breakout is you need two of your skill and speed guys to spear head the attack and the entire team moves up in support. So guys like Matthews, Nylander, Hyman, Spezza, Marner would be tasked with basically just going full tilt up the ice with close support. If the defense stands up you, you have to chip and chase with the explicit order to physically engage on the sidewall or end boards, or if the defense backs up, you carry it in. If the Leafs are so skilled and quick, just do what most teams do, but execute it faster and better. Why reinvent the wheel?

 

[Stephen]

Word on the street that Keefe isn't good enough now to run Dubas' vision. Need a new Babcock to see the vision and when new Babcock fails it will be because of the media or some other things.

Would actually be interested to see what Bruce Boudreau could do with this group. Not advocating for a coaching change, but that guy's always been an interesting coach with a healthy love for the Leafs and have always been curious to see it.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Keefe doesn’t make adjustments. It is no surprise to anyone who follows OHL hockey. The same thing happened in the OHL. When teams tightened the screws Keefe had no answers. I have seen him first hand get absolutely embarrassed in the OHL.

The Leafs are at a major disadvantage with him behind the bench. Do you think the Leafs have a chance against let’s say a team like Philly with AV and Michel Therrien? Keefe showed major flaws at the OHL level, and they’re showing up at this level, obviously. He is simply not a tactician, and all he did in the OHL was underachieve compared to their talent level. He used scare tactics as a coach in the OHL. Now in the NHL he has no idea how to deal with multi millionaires. Keefe needs to go back to the OHL, and actually accomplish something and he will maybe get another chance in the NHL later on. He is still young.. but it’s not going to work out here. He’s not ready to be a coach at this level. The Leafs need to clean house before things really go off the rails.

No one should be upset that Babcock got fired. Everyone has a shelf life, and Babs time was up. People should be upset that the HC is Sheldon Keefe. Vegas saw a clear upgrade and went for it hiring Pete Deboer. The Leafs hired Kyle Dubas’ buddy. There is one way to run an organization and there is another way.

I wonder if his ability to motivate people was more due to the fact that the players at those levels are self motivated. They are desperately trying to get to the next level to get paid..they will do whatever asked of them for the most part because they want to level up so to speak. Now, we have a totally different situation...they made it..they got paid..how do convince them that the level up this time is working hard for a cup? That's the big question.

All I do know is that the tactics he employed while coaching a ringer of a team in the AHL are not guaranteed to work in the NHL. Reloading might work when you are vastly more talented than most of the teams down there...but up here it's a different story.

One thing that I would like asked of Keefe is this: Do you not think that reloading almost all of the time negates any speed advantage we have over the other teams?

 

[Duffman955]

This system sucks.

Is there even a system?

Mindlessly stand around in the Dzone, covering no one

0 idea how to make controlled zone entry.

0 idea on how to create passing lanes in the Ozone

 

[IPS]

lmao. I'm sorry but aside from the PK part, this is too funny. I guess eye tests aren't too reliable but i watch almost every other team in the league and we're a complete joke defensively. It's no wonder Andersen has never had a worse save % and even poor Campbell(who might actually be better) is struggling(so many big saves) playing with this group. But then again, you can't expect anything else from the numbers people..It's why we are in this shitty situation.

We bordered on adequate with Muzzin and Rielly and are basically disaster level without them with our rag-tag majorly inexperienced group we're running now.

Make no mistake about it, Andersen has been complete shit for a couple months now but the defense is still an abomination.