Tribute Sheldon Keefe Discussion Part 2

[Nithoniniel]

Simmons: If you ignore the good Keefe has done and focus solely on the negative, was he even a good hiring?

"Semi-unpopular" is also a good one. The whole organization seemed to rejoice the moment he was fired.

 

[DarkKnight]

In the Maple Leafs last 23 games under Sheldon Keefe, the team has gone 11-10-2. That’s 24 points in 23 games. That too isn’t good enough.

Brutal. Coaching was a security blanket, now it’s gone, nowhere to “hide”.

 

[Joey Hoser]

In the Maple Leafs last 23 games under Sheldon Keefe, the team has gone 11-10-2. That’s 24 points in 23 games. That too isn’t good enough.

Brutal. Coaching was a security blanket, now it’s gone, nowhere to “hide”.

They are on a 100+ point pace under Keefe with like .905 goaltending his two best defencemen injured most of the time. But sure, use a smaller sample size if it fits your narrative better.

I don't know why we're bolding things.

 

[DarkKnight]

They are on a 100+ point pace under Keefe with like .905 goaltending his two best defencemen injured most of the time. But sure, use a smaller sample size if it fits your narrative better.

I don't know why we're bolding things.

The link was bolded. Also hilarity to suggest that’s a small sample size, given his overall tenure. Seems the narrative crack is irony I suppose.

Look, I like Keefe a lot, but I was under the mindset the first 20 games would be a mix of adrenaline, fresh starts, all ears, wanting to prove it was the coach. Not that he doesn’t deserve some credit but part of the change thinking is just change itself. I also recall shit goaltending earlier this year, so talk about selective?

 

[stickty111]

SIMMONS SUNDAY: Does Shanahan really believe in these Leafs? Really?

When Mike Babcock was fired 23 games into this season, his record with the Maple Leafs was 9-10-4. The team had accumulating 22 points in 23 games — and even by Babcock’s own standards, six points for every five games played, it wasn’t good enough.

In the Maple Leafs last 23 games under Sheldon Keefe, the team has gone 11-10-2. That’s 24 points in 23 games. That too isn’t good enough.

In essence, there is a two-point difference between Babcock and Keefe in their last 23 games coaching the club. And in between, there was a giant piece of excitement, the initial bump that players have when a semi-unpopular coach is let go. That’s when Keefe couldn’t do anything wrong.

So what’s real, the first 23 games Keefe coached with the Leafs, where his record was a rather remarkable 15-5-3 — 117-point honeymoon pace? Or the past 23 games, where many of the same problems identified with Babcock’s team have resurfaced without answer.

Keefe’s first 23 games have the Leafs as an NHL power.

The last 23 games as an also-ran.

It makes you revisit two things: Was firing Babcock really necessary and is Keefe really the coach of the future for the Leafs?

Simmonds is a terrible writer with bad narratives. What a surprise.

 

[DarkKnight]

Simmonds is a terrible writer with bad narratives. What a surprise.

Lol, they are just cold facts, the first 23 and the last 23, what a slanted narrative. And, what’s particularly funny, everyone was using the honeymoon record and extrapolating a small sample but now they don’t want review when their agenda is confronted.

All the record shows, players trump coaches. Doesn’t mean Keefe is a bad coach, I actually like the guy.

 

[Turin]

SIMMONS SUNDAY: Does Shanahan really believe in these Leafs? Really?

When Mike Babcock was fired 23 games into this season, his record with the Maple Leafs was 9-10-4. The team had accumulating 22 points in 23 games — and even by Babcock’s own standards, six points for every five games played, it wasn’t good enough.

In the Maple Leafs last 23 games under Sheldon Keefe, the team has gone 11-10-2. That’s 24 points in 23 games. That too isn’t good enough.

In essence, there is a two-point difference between Babcock and Keefe in their last 23 games coaching the club. And in between, there was a giant piece of excitement, the initial bump that players have when a semi-unpopular coach is let go. That’s when Keefe couldn’t do anything wrong.

So what’s real, the first 23 games Keefe coached with the Leafs, where his record was a rather remarkable 15-5-3 — 117-point honeymoon pace? Or the past 23 games, where many of the same problems identified with Babcock’s team have resurfaced without answer.

Keefe’s first 23 games have the Leafs as an NHL power.

The last 23 games as an also-ran.

It makes you revisit two things: Was firing Babcock really necessary and is Keefe really the coach of the future for the Leafs?

I know Simmons is a hack, but this has happened before. Pittsburgh started 2014-2015 extremely well under Mike Johnston and he couldn’t do anything wrong. Then they went .500 for 14 months and he was let go in December 2015 because his way of generating offense didn’t work in the NHL once teams caught on. Not saying Keefe is MJ (Hakstol basically is though) but it’s something to watch.

 

[IPS]

Lol, they are just cold facts, the first 23 and the last 23, what a slanted narrative. And, what’s particularly funny, everyone was using the honeymoon record and extrapolating a small sample but now they don’t want review when their agenda is confronted.

All the record shows, players trump coaches. Doesn’t mean Keefe is a bad coach, I actually like the guy.

The sentiment around here was that the main purpose of firing Babcock was to expose the main problem.

It's starting to look like the main problem is being exposed alright...

 

[DarkKnight]

I don’t really get the push back. Are we suggesting the team hasn’t floundered for a while now? Is that subjective or an objective fact, seems weird to not acknowledge realities.

 

[DarkKnight]

The sentiment around here was that the main purpose of firing Babcock was to expose the main problem.

It's starting to look like the main problem is being exposed alright...

Absolutely, and you’ll recall that’s always been my position. I don’t agree the boards reflected that though, many thought Babcock’s removal would fix everything.

 

[MarnerElite]

In the Maple Leafs last 23 games under Sheldon Keefe, the team has gone 11-10-2. That’s 24 points in 23 games. That too isn’t good enough.

Brutal. Coaching was a security blanket, now it’s gone, nowhere to “hide”.

Strange this is i like Keefe too. lol..I mean i don't think it's that difficult to figure out that this team simply is built with too many similar players. Some of us have been saying it for so long now(and it's pretty clear by now) which is why i still mostly blame Dubas for this. There are some situations in which Keefe doesn't impress me though(for example i don't get why Marincin and Ceci are still playing..maybe that's Dubas too, who knows...i would just say to Dubas to ship those guys somewhere else because both are pretty bad imo).

 

[Mess]

Lol, they are just cold facts, the first 23 and the last 23, what a slanted narrative. And, what’s particularly funny, everyone was using the honeymoon record and extrapolating a small sample but now they don’t want review when their agenda is confronted.

All the record shows, players trump coaches. Doesn’t mean Keefe is a bad coach, I actually like the guy.

I did this same Simmons coaching comparison a week or so back with Babs last 20 and Keefe's last 20 at that time and the records were almost identical.

If Babcock had lost to a Zamboni driver or got swept against the 3 worst teams in the draft lottery West Conference all hell would be breaking loose right now, but because its Keefe all seems to be forgiven.

What Simmons is showing is that it doesn't matter when you use the Leafs actual records under different coaches is that the results are the same, regardless of line combos or TOI/g given. Babcock didn't play the Leafs star players enough nor play Marner with Matthews nor utilize them in game strategy enough.. So now playing Matthews and Marner together and giving them 23 minutes a night instead of 18 didn't have any better results on a must win road trip through California either.

The famous saying is "Don't shoot the messenger" applies here with Simmons column as all he is doing is using actual win loss stats comparison to show similar coaching results over the same sample set of games with different coaches.. The problem isn't Simmons for reporting it, this means its a player personnel issue which means the problem is the players themselves and the GM that built the team.

 

[DarkKnight]

I did this same Simmons coaching comparison a week or so back with Babs last 20 and Keefe's last 20 at that time and the records were almost identical.

If Babcock had lost to a Zamboni driver or got swept against the 3 worst teams in the draft lottery West Conference all hell would be breaking loose right now, but because its Keefe all seems to be forgiven.

What Simmons is showing is that it doesn't matter when you use the Leafs actual records under different coaches is that the results are the same, regardless of line combos or TOI/g given. Babcock didn't play the Leafs star players enough nor play Marner with Matthews nor utilize them in game strategy enough.. So now playing Matthews and Marner together and giving them 23 minutes a night instead of 18 didn't have any better results on a must win road trip through California either.

The famous saying is "Don't shoot the messenger" applies here with Simmons column as all he is doing is using actual win loss stats comparison to show similar coaching results over the same sample set of games with different coaches.. The problem isn't Simmons for reporting it, this means its a player personnel issue which means the problem is the players themselves and the GM that built the team.

Exactly. We didn’t need Simmons, the stats were already readily available here and elsewhere. It’s just numbers, don’t understand the constant insecurities.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Strange this is i like Keefe too. lol..I mean i don't think it's that difficult to figure out that this team simply is built with too many similar players. Some of us have been saying it for so long now(and it's pretty clear by now) which is why i still mostly blame Dubas for this. There are some situations in which Keefe doesn't impress me though(for example i don't get why Marincin and Ceci are still playing..maybe that's Dubas too, who knows...i would just say to Dubas to ship those guys somewhere else because both are pretty bad imo).

To me it's his failure to change tactics that really shocks me. I thought he would be much more malleable to what teams were doing against him and have a response. This reloading thing doesn't work anymore...they just sit there at the blueline while we keep circling around in our end wasting 25 sec of the guys shifts...and then they dump it in anyway.

The 3 high man in the O-zone has not worked for 2 months...it was used by a Dallas coach about 10yrs ago...and they stopped using it because teams would send 3 guys high to force turnovers and breakaways...sound familiar?

I don't get why we can't change our tactics or have a plan B for situations. He managed to get them to play this reloading possession style game after 2 practices...why can't he install some alternative for when things are clogged up?

Man, I am starting to really feel stupid for crapping on Babs for the last year or so...and believe me...I am choking on the thought of typing this...I hated his personality more than anything else...but now...I am wondering if we jumped the gun in firing him.

 

[MarnerElite]

To me it's his failure to change tactics that really shocks me. I thought he would be much more malleable to what teams were doing against him and have a response. This reloading thing doesn't work anymore...they just sit there at the blueline while we keep circling around in our end wasting 25 sec of the guys shifts...and then they dump it in anyway.

The 3 high man in the O-zone has not worked for 2 months...it was used by a Dallas coach about 10yrs ago...and they stopped using it because teams would send 3 guys high to force turnovers and breakaways...sound familiar?

I don't get why we can't change our tactics or have a plan B for situations. He managed to get them to play this reloading possession style game after 2 practices...why can't he install some alternative for when things are clogged up?

Man, I am starting to really feel stupid for crapping on Babs for the last year or so...and believe me...I am choking on the thought of typing this...I hated his personality more than anything else...but now...I am wondering if we jumped the gun in firing him.

Yeah i notice that part too..I hate the whole collapse in front of our net and just let opponents shoot from the point(i mean for one you're screening your goalie, along with opposing players too...also you better be willing to block the shot which not every player does..and then of course sometimes it's hard to see where you are standing exactly as the point man can just change the angle slightly and fool you..happens quite often)..So yea i agree with you..The thing is, i've seen so many coaches come and go and it's always same shit. You like certain parts of his coaching and hate something else. No such thing as a perfect coach and i do like the fact Keefe experiments more with this group(Babs always thought he was so smart and knew what was best so he didn't like making changes). So i liked some things about Babcock and hated other things, same with Keefe. You also need to have players to be able to play a certain style and so again i mostly blame Dubas for not making this team more balanced as we have way too many similar players who just don't seem very competent in some areas.

 

[stickty111]

For all the people who think Keefe's hasn't done much, he has improved pretty much every metric defensively. We are okay defensively for the most part at 5 on 5. Our PK is terrific.
What we might be starting to see is that there is a character problem in the room with the players.

 

[MarnerElite]

For all the people who think Keefe's hasn't done much, he has improved pretty much every metric defensively. We are okay defensively for the most part at 5 on 5. Our PK is terrific.
What we might be starting to see is that there is a character problem in the room with the players.

lmao. I'm sorry but aside from the PK part, this is too funny. I guess eye tests aren't too reliable but i watch almost every other team in the league and we're a complete joke defensively. It's no wonder Andersen has never had a worse save % and even poor Campbell(who might actually be better) is struggling(so many big saves) playing with this group. But then again, you can't expect anything else from the numbers people..It's why we are in this shitty situation.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

For all the people who think Keefe's hasn't done much, he has improved pretty much every metric defensively. We are okay defensively for the most part at 5 on 5. Our PK is terrific.
What we might be starting to see is that there is a character problem in the room with the players.

Find them and trade them no matter who they are.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

lmao. I'm sorry but aside from the PK part, this is too funny. I guess eye tests aren't too reliable but i watch almost every other team in the league and we're a complete joke defensively. It's no wonder Andersen has never had a worse save % and even poor Campabell(who might actually be better) is was really struggling(so many big saves) playing with this group. But then again, you can't expect anything else from the numbers people..It's why we are in this shitty situation.

Advanced stats are flawed because they come from flawed data collected and subjectively observed by Humans.

 

[Gabriel426]

I don’t know why people(posters and medias) continue to take certain sample sizes to prove their points without considering all the factors.
During Babs this season, players might have played bad but I think only Hyman, Dermott, Mitch and JT were injured and I don’t think all four of them were out at the same time as any given point. During the last 23 games of Keefe, pretty much his top 3 Dmen are all out at the same time, as well as Souperman and AJ being injured.
I agree the team is not very good esp if guys like Muzzin and Reilly are injured. However, I think Keefe is showing more progress with the team than Babs. Under Keefe, you are seeing players taking the next step.
one thing to remember is that teams do outplay each other regardless of standings. Kings are bad but they still have a 1C,1D and a goalie who can steal games. Sharks might be old but they still got talents, I think the truly bad teams are the Wings and the Sens.

 

[All Mod Cons]

To me it's his failure to change tactics that really shocks me. I thought he would be much more malleable to what teams were doing against him and have a response. This reloading thing doesn't work anymore...they just sit there at the blueline while we keep circling around in our end wasting 25 sec of the guys shifts...and then they dump it in anyway.

The 3 high man in the O-zone has not worked for 2 months...it was used by a Dallas coach about 10yrs ago...and they stopped using it because teams would send 3 guys high to force turnovers and breakaways...sound familiar?

I don't get why we can't change our tactics or have a plan B for situations. He managed to get them to play this reloading possession style game after 2 practices...why can't he install some alternative for when things are clogged up?

Man, I am starting to really feel stupid for crapping on Babs for the last year or so...and believe me...I am choking on the thought of typing this...I hated his personality more than anything else...but now...I am wondering if we jumped the gun in firing him.

We shouldn't have fired Babs in all honesty. He wasn't the issue. It was clear to see (not picking on you). It's the make up of the team. It's just not right. It's that simple.

 

[Stephen]

Is it just me or does the 'reload' thing we do actually take away most of our speed advantage? Doing this reloading and having 1 player causing us to retreat behind our own net while 4 guys are waiting in the NZ is not conducive to speedy teams.

Our O-zone play has taken a dive since teams are sending 3 players up to the blue line to confront our 3 guys...so it's no longer play time for 1 min while teams struggle to figure out who to cover...maybe Keefe used this to great success in the AHL...but Dallas used this a few seasons ago and shockingly...it was figured out and they had to stop using it.

I hated Babcock because he never changed his approach and never deviated from his script...Keefe is starting to look like he is married to his 'system' as well.

Once they use that tracking data to measure the overage speed of a Leafs player/speed of the puck on one of those reload plays, I think they'll quickly find that not only does the drop drop pass not clear out more runway to build speed but it reduces the attack speed of everyone else, and creates a wall of players (opposition defense and teammates) that end up limiting entry points into the opponent's end. By the time the puck carrier gets to an opening they have to reduce speed anyway.

The reload isn't a bad tactic, but just like a spin-o-rama, you should be using it in very rare instances to build the element of surprise and disruption, not your bread and butter. As an opposition defense, if you see the Leafs winding up just have everyone line up the blueline. You're laughing.

 

[Superstar]

For all the people who think Keefe's hasn't done much, he has improved pretty much every metric defensively. We are okay defensively for the most part at 5 on 5. Our PK is terrific.
What we might be starting to see is that there is a character problem in the room with the players.

We're okay until Holl tries to pull a Bobby Orr and gives the puck away for a high danger scoring chance or a goal...which has been too frequent...and as good as Sandin has been, he can't defend in front of the net, which has resulted in goals...so collectively, the numbers might look better, but when the D gives the puck away, it results in some serious mad scrambles or it goes in the net too often.

 

[Stephen]

For all the people who think Keefe's hasn't done much, he has improved pretty much every metric defensively. We are okay defensively for the most part at 5 on 5. Our PK is terrific.
What we might be starting to see is that there is a character problem in the room with the players.

What is the practical application of these advanced stats exercises? Seems like the conclusion is often to show how surprisingly good everything is under a regime the community supports. And then what, wait for the sample size to be large enough to bear out? How's 82 games and possibly a missed playoff? What do we do with this information in the offseason? Don't acquire more defensive help?

 

[Wafflewhipper]

We shouldn't have fired Babs in all honesty. He wasn't the issue. It was clear to see (not picking on you). It's the make up of the team. It's just not right. It's that simple.

I can’t stand some of the things he done. There are definitely issues beyond coaching.