Player Discussion Shea Weber

[Habs Halifax]

Ray Bourque never won anything until his last year. Was he also overrated?

If the Bruins traded him for a guy that was 4 years younger, had a higher ceiling, and was also a defenseman who also shot left.... he would of been overrated by the team taking him on for sure!

 

[Saundies]

It has nothing to do with Subban.

Weber's contract is a concern. I only started this somewhat critical/negative conversation about Weber because of the J Bouwmeester news. I don't want him to fail but I keep seeing people, analysts and media goons too, just assume he'll be a top-pairing d-man into his late 30s. I'm asking why that is because I personally don't see it.

Chara was better than Weber at his peak and he wasn't a top-pairing d-man the last few years either. And Chara's never had two consecutive injuries/surgeries that required him to be out for a full friggin year.

I'm not concerned about Weber's contract at all. There's been plenty of loopholes exploited in getting out of other crazy contracts (Hossa's comes to mind) and even guys like David Clarkson, who many thought to be insane and immovable, have been traded. Plus we have another lockout incoming in the year 20-21 which typically includes a buyout window.

And all of this is dependent on if he really regresses as much as people want to think he will, which hasn't officially started happening yet.

 

[Hostile Offer]

Whatever the guy still hasn't won a damn thing in the NHL.

I hated Weber long before he was traded to the Habs. He signed an offer sheet with Phillly and screwed his own team so that they had to match the offer. Real character guy there.

What would you do if you get offered $110M?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'm not concerned about Weber's contract at all. There's been plenty of loopholes exploited in getting out of other crazy contracts (Hossa's comes to mind) and even guys like David Clarkson, who many thought to be insane and immovable, have been traded. Plus we have another lockout incoming in the year 20-21 which typically includes a buyout window.

And all of this is dependent on if he really regresses as much as people want to think he will, which hasn't officially started happening yet.

Agreed. There are no concerns with his contract cause it's designed for him to retire at age 37 or 38. Those who want to devalue him due to his contract are stretching cause they ignore those last 3 years at only $1M in actual salary. So both Hossa and Zetterberg decide not to play those $1M years but Weber for sure does?

 

[Saundies]

Agreed. There are no concerns with his contract cause it's designed for him to retire at age 37 or 38. Those who want to devalue him due to his contract are stretching cause they ignore those last 3 years at only $1M in actual salary. So both Hossa and Zetterberg decide not to play those $1M years but Weber for sure does?

Exactly. And if I'm not mistaken, the scariest part of the contact concerns the Cap Recapture penalties if he retires early, which Nashville is ultimately on the hook for.

 

[varsaku]

Our defense would have been solid if it wasn’t for the Sergachev and subban trades.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Question... How does the cap recapture work in the other direction if you underpay vs cap hit? Do teams actually get a salary cap credit if their retire early? The case with the Habs and Weber is one of a kind cause is there any other cap circumventing contract like Weber's that has been traded well before the player retired?

If Weber retires after his age 36 season (He makes $3M at age 37):
- Preds on the hook for $6.125M in cap hit for 4 years ($24.5M/4)
- Habs on the hook for $0.214M for 4 years ($0.857M/4)

If Weber retires after his age 37 season (He makes $1M at age 38):
- Preds on the hook for $8.17M in cap hit for 3 years ($24.5M/3)
- Do the Habs actually get extra cap credit? (+) $1.33M for 3 years ($4M/3)

If Weber retires after his age 38 season (He makes $1M at age 39 and 40) :
- Preds on the hook for $12.25M in cap hit for 2 years ($24.5M/2)
- Do the Habs actually get extra cap credit? (+) $5.43M for 2 years ($10.86M/2)

It's also worth nothing that the current 10 year CBA agreement expires on Sept 15th, 2022. That's exactly when Weber's salary drops from $6M to $3M and he just turns 37.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Our defense would have been solid if it wasn’t for the Sergachev and subban trades.

It would of been better than solid.

 

[CauZuki]

It's early but do the D pairings get scuffled when Weber comes back? Who plays with Weber and Petry and do we touch the Reilly/Juulsen pairing?

Mete / Weber
Benn or Schlemko / Petry
Reilly / Juulsen

Nothing to brag about but all 3 pairings are solid IMO. Gives the coach the option to roll them 5/5

I only see one option:

Rielly - Weber
Mete - Petry (There is no way Juulsen gets Petry's spot)
Alzner - Juulsen
Ouellet

Waive/trade: Benn/Schlemko

 

[Habs Halifax]

I only see one option:

Rielly - Weber
Mete - Petry (There is no way Juulsen gets Petry's spot)
Alzner - Juulsen
Ouellet

Waive/trade: Benn/Schlemko

Interesting. So you do consider splitting up Reilly and Juulsen? I just don't know how they manage this.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

The Weber stories people come up with are comical.

1) He led his team in points many years in Nashville and was often one of their goal scoring leaders all while being renowned for his physical and defensive game. In his prime he was excellent. Many people forget Nashville sucked, a lot of their talent now: Johansen, Josi, Forsberg, Ekholm, Arvidsson, etc... were still prospects or very young when Weber was traded. The years before they weren't even on the team. Hence why he was leading the team in points...he's not even a pure offensive D-man and he was leading team in points...that's ridiculous. That's how bad Nashville was at a point and he and Suter carried them for a cou

When Nashville's young core emerged and Weber was creeping out of that prime they traded him(quite intelligently) for a younger top end D which allowed them to extend their window. They already went from no playoffs 2 years to first round to second round so they were coming up. A full year of Johansen and a younger top end D helped too.

It shouldn't be a knock on Weber that they weren't a cap team in his prime. It's like saying Price does nothing for this team and if we win when he's gone I'm justified. Everyone knows it's ridiculous to treat price like that, same for Weber.

2) His 'selfish' contract situation. Weber was one of the best D on the planet and Nashville lowballed him(as is the case in all arbitration hearings):

The Predators chose to take the Norris Trophy finalist and team captain to arbitration, and the arbitrator heard arguments Tuesday in a hearing in Toronto. The Predators argued that Weber was due $4.75 million, while Weber's agents countered with $8.5 million.

It's same when people look at what Subban was offered in arbitration or whatever. It's usually like this.

After 7.5 million was awarded:

"Shea, by this award, certainly got recognized as one of the top, if not the best defenceman in all of the National Hockey League," Poile said in a conference call Wednesday shortly after the arbitrator's ruling.

"We will continue to work on a longer term contract once the season gets started," Poile said.

"It is nice to get this arbitration process out of the way for now and hopefully this can lead to further negotiations between my agents and the Predators," Weber said on the conference call. "Hopefully we can get something done long-term, but for now a one-year deal is done, and I am excited to get ready for the season. I am happy to be a Nashville Predator. I'm thankful to all the fans for hanging in there through this whole process."

So he's one of the best, if not the best according to Poile...then Poile is playing hardball with him again the next year? Jesus...I get Poile's hands are tied but at a certain point...

All that needs to be said is after Subban's first arbitration hearing Habs caved and made him highest made D-man in the NHL at the time. After Weber's first arbitration Nashville continued to hold back. Subban is seen as a martyr for this but Weber had it worse...

The next year comes and Weber is 1) Tired of team not paying up and 2) Just watched Ryan Suter leave 2 weeks earlier, get paid and leave the team in another hole after struggling to A) Invest in players B) spend to the cap and be competitive. Weber just wants out for the good of his prime.

"I don't think you sign an offer sheet unless you're pointing in that one direction ...," Bousquet said. "It's really up to [Nashville]. He'd like to play with the Philadelphia Flyers because I think we all feel that he's just another piece in the puzzle to take them to the next level and he doesn't want to go through a rebuilding process again."

Nashville panics because they just lost Suter and they match the deal.

In a team-issued press release, Nashville called matching the Weber offer sheet "the most important hockey transaction in franchise history."

Team starts to get a little better but Weber starts to get older. Boom, "Thanks for your prime Weber, cya" is what happens.

Don't get me wrong, genius by Poile but I don't see how Weber was at fault here. Guy took a bridge and then went to arbitration. Can't blame a guy for wanting a fair deal...longest deal Nashville ever gave was what, 3 years?

Anyway, I don't think Weber did anything wrong. I don't think he's shit either. Nashville just traded him at right time when he was no longer in his prime. Still great player but not the same guy who was leading Nashville in points and on top end of goals anymore.

3) His comparable should be someone like Pronger, Rob Blake, etc...Big, physical two-way guys with elite hockey IQ who played into late 30s no problem. Of course...anything can happen but that's a better comparison even if its not perfect.

 

[groovejuice]

I only see one option:

Rielly - Weber
Mete - Petry (There is no way Juulsen gets Petry's spot)
Alzner - Juulsen
Ouellet

Waive/trade: Benn/Schlemko.

Could put them to work making tacos on the concourse at their current salaries! That would justify the cost of the taco, but not the lack of quality.

 

[Belial]

I only see one option:

Rielly - Weber
Mete - Petry (There is no way Juulsen gets Petry's spot)
Alzner - Juulsen
Ouellet

Waive/trade: Benn/Schlemko

Schlemko> Benn/Alzner/Ouellet

Schlemko-Juulsen as the third pair.

 

[CauZuki]

Interesting. So you do consider splitting up Reilly and Juulsen? I just don't know how they manage this.

Rielly has been our best LD this year I think most would agree and his speed compliments Weber quite well. I can very well see a scenario where Rielly is feeding Weber the puck on the PP, I mean did we not see him handle the puck like a wizard that lead to him scoring last game?

Mete in my opinion is our 2nd best option at LD, he is young but has proven he can move the puck quickly but he still has a lot of work to do but he's going to get there. Petry deserves some of the hate he gets but for the most parts has produced well and has been fairly reliable on the backend. He is a solid partner that can act as a veteran mentor for Mete. It's easy to find flaws in Petry's game when he is asked to play a role that doesn't fit him. Once Weber is back he slots into some easier minutes and we will start to see some of the negative die down.

I've been a huge fan of Juulsen since his draft year and seeing his poise in the WJC. I though a lot of people underrated him or made it seem like there was no room for him. I am not a fan of Alzner but I don't see a scenario where Habs waive him unless for purposes of a buyout. Assuming he stays and attempts to play a simple game on the bottom pairing perhaps that could work with a fluid skater like Juulsen, who I might add has been a physical beast this year and he's really coming into his own.

 

[CauZuki]

Schlemko> Benn/Alzner/Ouellet

Schlemko-Juulsen as the third pair.

I don't disagree but I don't see them scratching Alzner all year. Perhaps they proceed with a buyout next summer.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I would do:
Mete-Weber
Reilly-Petry
????-Juulsen

 

[Habs Halifax]

Rielly has been our best LD this year I think most would agree and his speed compliments Weber quite well. Mete in my opinion is our 2nd best option at LD, he is young but has proven he can move the puck quickly but he still has a lot of work to do but he's going to get there. Petry deserves some of the hate he gets but for the most parts has produced well and has been fairly reliable on the backend. He is a solid partner that can act as a veteran mentor for Mete. It's easy to find flaws in Petry's game when he is asked to play a role that doesn't fit him. Once Weber is back he slots into some easier minutes and we will start some of the negative die down.

I've been a huge fan of Juulsen since his draft year and seeing his poise in the WJC. I though a lot of people underrated him or made it seem like there was no room for him. I am not a fan of Alzner but I don't see a scenario where Habs waive him unless for purposes of a buyout. Assuming he stays and attempts to play a simple game on the bottom pairing perhaps that could work with a fluid skater like Juulsen, who I might add has been a physical beast this year and he's really coming into his own.

I agree with pretty much everything. The Alzner/Juulsen pairing was decent last year. I'm not sure what I would do but I am very curious to see if they split up the Reilly/Juulsen pairing. I think they will be wary of making that change but it's early yet. We got what, another month at least before Weber is ready?

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I don't disagree but I don't see them scratching Alzner all year. Perhaps they proceed with a buyout next summer.

I hope they get creative with Alzner. I'd rather retain 50% and trade him for a pick than pay approx. 33% for 6 years.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I hope they get creative with Alzner. I'd rather retain 50% and trade him for a pick than pay approx. 33% for 6 years.

Alzner for 3 more years at $2.3125M (After this year and 50% retention)... I just wonder if any team bites on this. I think the Habs would have to take on a bad contract in return in any deal involving Alzner. The book is out on him and it's getting worse.

 

[Hostile Offer]

I hope they get creative with Alzner. I'd rather retain 50% and trade him for a pick than pay approx. 33% for 6 years.

I don't think anyone's taking Alzner even at 50%. That's still $2.3M for 3 more years after this one for a guy who is barely an NHLer at this point.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Question... How does the cap recapture work in the other direction if you underpay vs cap hit? Do teams actually get a salary cap credit if they retire early? The case with the Habs and Weber is one of a kind cause is there any other cap circumventing contract like Weber's that has been traded well before the player retired but after a large % of actual salary is paid out?

If Weber retires after his age 36 season (He makes $3M at age 37):
- Preds on the hook for $6.125M in cap hit for 4 years ($24.5M/4)
- Habs on the hook for $0.214M for 4 years ($0.857M/4)

If Weber retires after his age 37 season (He makes $1M at age 38):
- Preds on the hook for $8.17M in cap hit for 3 years ($24.5M/3)
- Do the Habs actually get extra cap credit? (+) $1.33M for 3 years ($4M/3)

If Weber retires after his age 38 season (He makes $1M at age 39 and 40) :
- Preds on the hook for $12.25M in cap hit for 2 years ($24.5M/2)
- Do the Habs actually get extra cap credit? (+) $5.43M for 2 years ($10.86M/2)

It's also worth nothing that the current 10 year CBA agreement expires on Sept 15th, 2022. That's exactly when Weber's salary drops from $6M to $3M and he just turns 37.

Anybody know the answer to the inquiry in red above?

 

[Hostile Offer]

Anybody know the answer to the inquiry in red above?

What does that even mean? That a team would be paying more than the cap hit at the time of retirement or less than the cap hit? The latter scenario should be covered pretty well. Doubt the former ever happens.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I don't think anyone's taking Alzner even at 50%. That's still $2.3M for 3 more years after this one for a guy who is barely an NHLer at this point.

Tampa, a pretty smart team, are paying Girardi 6 mil over two seasons.

If Montreal retains 50% they might find a team willing to take a chance on him and can move him for a basically nothing in return.

 

[Hostile Offer]

Tampa, a pretty smart team, are paying Girardi 6 mil over two seasons.

If Montreal retains 50% they might find a team willing to take a chance on him and can move him for a basically nothing in return.

Take a chance on Alzner? The Habs have brutal LD and Alzner still struggles to crack the lineup.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Take a chance on Alzner? The Habs have brutal LD and Alzner still struggles to crack the lineup.

Such was the case with Girardi. It could happen. I don't expect it will, but it could.