Player Discussion Shea Weber

[CauZuki]

I agree with pretty much everything. The Alzner/Juulsen pairing was decent last year. I'm not sure what I would do but I am very curious to see if they split up the Reilly/Juulsen pairing. I think they will be wary of making that change but it's early yet. We got what, another month at least before Weber is ready?

They could do Mete - Weber but I feel Mete isn't ready for that role yet and Rielly has shown more maturity in his game. I think we end up seeing Weber either last week of November or first week of December. It's hard to predict something that isn't really tangible. I doubt he rushes it, at his age he can't risk it as he doesn't have many elite years left especially as he gets closer to his late 30's.

 

[Belial]

Anybody know the answer to the inquiry in red above?

Why would teams get any sort of cap credit? Makes no sense...

 

[Habs Halifax]

Why would teams get any sort of cap credit? Makes no sense...

Cause we underpaid him vs his cap hit starting when he completes his age 37 year. If the NHL is going to penalize teams for have an advantage in cap hit vs paying a higher salary, then why doesn't it work both ways?

In truth, I think the Weber contract is the only one like it of it's kind cause the Preds traded him right after he got paid his high salary seasons. Are you aware of any others? Maybe the Luongo contract?

 

[CauZuki]

I hope they get creative with Alzner. I'd rather retain 50% and trade him for a pick than pay approx. 33% for 6 years.

Yeah, I have a feeling they waive him eventually and wait to see if the rules change by 2020. Don't think his career is over but with that disastrous contract nobody except for maybe Arizona can make it work...

 

[Habs Halifax]

They could do Mete - Weber but I feel Mete isn't ready for that role yet and Rielly has shown more maturity in his game. I think we end up seeing Weber either last week of November or first week of December. It's hard to predict something that isn't really tangible. I doubt he rushes it, at his age he can't risk it as he doesn't have many elite years left especially as he gets closer to his late 30's.

I do think they will experiment with potential pairings but something tells me they keep the Reilly/Juulsen pairing together. Question is, do they become our 3rd pairing then? Like I said, it should be interesting to see how they manage this

Weber had his knee surgery in mid June right? And it's typically 4-5 months of recovery. So I always considered the mid December return very conservative. If no set backs, I also see a potential late November return

 

[Hostile Offer]

Cause we underpaid him vs his cap hit starting when he completes his age 37 year. If the NHL is going to penalize teams for have an advantage in cap hit vs paying a higher salary, then why doesn't it work both ways?

In truth, I think the Weber contract is the only one like it of it's kind cause the Preds traded him right after he got paid his high salary seasons. Are you aware of any others? Maybe the Luongo contract?

Don't forget that retiring that early also includes the years the cap hit is higher than the the actual salary.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Don't forget that retiring that early also includes the years the cap hit is higher than the the actual salary.

Yes, but not sure if I am clearly presenting my question right....

1) At this stage, the constant is the Preds are on the hook for $24.5M in cap recapture penalty based on his 4 years with the Preds on this current contract (Cap hit - Actual salary)

2) Habs would also be on the hook for a total of $0.857M if Weber don't play at age 37 when his salary drops from $6M to $3M. That would be a cap hit of $0.214M for 4 years. Preds would get $6.125M for 4 years.

3) It's when Weber turns 37 which shifts things. His salary drops to $3M and after that season, the Habs have essentially paid him less than his cap hit over the 7 years he would be with us. At that point, it goes the other way for us and we have paid him $4M less than his cap hit while he has been with us. After the age 38 season, it grows by a lot.... It becomes $10.9M.

Do we get credit for this if the cap recapture penalty only work one way? I doubt it but it is a rare case

 

[Belial]

Cause we underpaid him vs his cap hit starting when he completes his age 37 year. If the NHL is going to penalize teams for have an advantage in cap hit vs paying a higher salary, then why doesn't it work both ways?

In truth, I think the Weber contract is the only one like it of it's kind cause the Preds traded him right after he got paid his high salary seasons. Are you aware of any others? Maybe the Luongo contract?

Seriously, I don't understand what you're trying to say...

The reason there's a cap penalty in Weber's case if he retires early it's because his contract was structured in such a manner that it could somewhat get around the cap.

His cap hit was lowered by giving him a ton of years.

This is not happening anymore as they now limited the contract's length.

Suter contract was structured the same, and Parise also...

Even Crosby's contract is somewhat comparable, he makes 3M per year in his last 3 years.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Seriously, I don't understand what you're trying to say...

The reason there's a cap penalty in Weber's case if he retires early it's because his contract was structured in such a manner that it could somewhat get around the cap.

His cap hit was lowered by giving him a ton of years.

This is not happening anymore as they now limited the contract's length.

Suter contract was structured the same, and Parise also...

Even Crosby's contract is somewhat comparable, he makes 3M per year in his last 3 years.

It's not your fault I am poor at explaining my question lol. Look at post 957. I don't know how to ask any other way. The question is does cap recapture penalty work both negative and positive?

- After Weber plays his age 37 year, Habs have paid $4M less vs his cap hit over the 7 years he has been with us.
- After Weber plays his age 38 year, Habs have paid $10.9M less vs his cap hit over the 8 years he has been with us.

Does the cap recapture penalty only work one way... the negative direction? Is there any situation where teams can get a credit if they pay less than AAV cause they acquired a contract after the previous team paid most of the salary.

The only other contract I can think of that is similar is Luongo's

 

[Hostile Offer]

It's not your fault I am poor at explaining my question lol. Look at post 957. I don't know how to ask any other way. The question is does cap recapture penalty work both negative and positive?

- After Weber plays his age 37 year, Habs have paid $4M less vs his cap hit over the 7 years he has been with us.
- After Weber plays his age 38 year, Habs have paid $10.9M less vs his cap hit over the 8 years he has been with us.

Does the cap recapture penalty only work one way... the negative direction? Is there any situation where teams can get a credit if they pay less than AAV cause they acquired a contract after the previous team paid most of the salary

Not sure if you've seen this table before but this should explain it to you. If Weber doesn't retire before the 2020-21 season, the Habs' penalty will be $0. So no reward whatsoever.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Not sure if you've seen this table before but this should explain it to you. If Weber doesn't retire before the 2020-21 season, the Habs' penalty will be $0. So no reward whatsoever.

I understand how it works but all the focus is "cap charges". There is zero talk about cap credits. So I'm doubtful it's possible but curious why it works only in the negative way

 

[sheed36]

Yes, but not sure if I am clearly presenting my question right....

1) At this stage, the constant is the Preds are on the hook for $24.5M in cap recapture penalty based on his 4 years with the Preds on this current contract (Cap hit - Actual salary)

2) Habs would also be on the hook for a total of $0.857M if Weber don't play at age 37 when his salary drops from $6M to $3M. That would be a cap hit of $0.214M for 4 years. Preds would get $6.125M for 4 years.

3) It's when Weber turns 37 which shifts things. His salary drops to $3M and after that season, the Habs have essentially paid him less than his cap hit over the 7 years he would be with us. At that point, it goes the other way for us and we have paid him $4M less than his cap hit while he has been with us. After the age 38 season, it grows by a lot.... It becomes $10.9M.

Do we get credit for this of is the cap recapture penalty only work one way?

Not sure if correct but the website below says the Habs are completely done with any cap recapture penalties on Weber after the 19-20 season when he's 34.

Weber for Subban could hurt Preds in long run

 

[Habs Halifax]

Not sure if correct but the website below says the Habs are completely done with any cap recapture penalties on Weber after the 19-20 season when he's 34.

Weber for Subban could hurt Preds in long run

It's been well documented on the cap CHARGES (or penalties) the Preds would have due to paying him way more in salary vs his actual AAV. I'm asking about cap CREDITS? Cause I have no seen any talk about this and I'm wondering if the reason is these cases are very rare. The only two contracts I see this possible are the Weber and Luongo contracts.

I ask again... Why does it only work in the negative direction? It's hard to get a real answer on this and most are focused on cap charges.

 

[Belial]

It's not your fault I am poor at explaining my question lol. Look at post 957. I don't know how to ask any other way. The question is does cap recapture penalty work both negative and positive?

- After Weber plays his age 37 year, Habs have paid $4M less vs his cap hit over the 7 years he has been with us.
- After Weber plays his age 38 year, Habs have paid $10.9M less vs his cap hit over the 8 years he has been with us.

Does the cap recapture penalty only work one way... the negative direction? Is there any situation where teams can get a credit if they pay less than AAV cause they acquired a contract after the previous team paid most of the salary

Again your question just doesn't make sense IMO.

Why would teams get any credit on top of saving cash?

The answer is clearly no, the whole point of this cap recapture thing is to punish teams that tried to screw the cap system by giving extremely long contracts to lower the cap hit of those players.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Again your question just doesn't make sense IMO.

Why would teams get any credit on top of saving cash?

The answer is clearly no, the whole point of this cap recapture thing is to punish teams that tried to screw the cap system by giving extremely long contracts to lower the cap hit of those players.

It does make sense. Think of it this way. Why even have a cap recapture penalty? Cause of the advantage of paying more in salary vs the cap hit. I guess you think it don't make sense cause the CBA don't have a "Cap Credit Recapture Clause" ? Bettman don't care about if you pay less than AAV but he does if you pay more?

The Weber and Luongo situations are very rare. That's why I asked. Everything I see and read is focused on a penalty. I get that but I'm looking for a clause that dismisses any cap recapture credit?

 

[Hostile Offer]

It's been well documented on the cap CHARGES (or penalties) the Preds would have due to paying him way more in salary vs his actual AAV. I'm asking about cap CREDITS? Cause I have no seen any talk about this and I'm wondering if the reason is these cases are very rare. The only two contracts I see this possible are the Weber and Luongo contracts.

I ask again... Why does it only work in the negative direction? It's hard to get a real answer on this and most are focused on cap charges.

Why would teams be rewarded for those contracts? If a cap recapture credit was a thing, I think it would be mentioned right there in that table.

 

[Belial]

It does make sense.

It doesn't make sense because it's a penalty, getting more cap space is not a penalty it's an advantage.

Think of it this way. Why even have a cap recapture penalty? Cause of the advantage of paying more in salary vs the cap hit.

I told why this penalty exists, it's there to punish teams that tried to screw the system.

I guess you think it don't make sense cause the CBA don't have a "Cap Credit Recapture Clause" ? Bettman don't care about if you pay less than AAV but he does if you pay more?

Again, I don't think you understand the point of this penalty...

The Weber and Luongo situations are very rare. That's why I asked.

I told you, Parise, Suter, Keith, Franzen, Zetterberg, Carter, Crosby, Luongo and Quick.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Why would teams be rewarded for those contracts? If a cap recapture credit was a thing, I think it would be mentioned right there in that table.

The more I think about it, I guess it's addressed based on picking up a contract after most of the money is paid. The credit is you get a player for an AAV but pay him less cause the previous team payed him the large salary years. The only two contracts I can think about are the Weber and Luongo contracts

 

[Habs Halifax]

I told you, Parise, Suter, Keith, Franzen, Zetterberg, Carter, Crosby, Luongo and Quick.

Relax. I know how the question sounds and I understand the penalty side of things. You missed the point about how Luongo and Weber are different vs the other cap circumventing contracts. Luongo and Weber were paid a lot of money by their previous teams. Most of the others have played with the same team they signed with. Carter was signed by the Flyers but didn't play with them under his current contract. Different situation

Luongo and Weber situations are rare. How many teams to you know have paid less than the AAV over the duration of that player playing on their team?

 

[Belial]

Relax. I know how the question sounds and I understand the penalty side of things. You missed the point about how Luongo and Weber are different vs the other cap circumventing contracts. Luongo and Weber were paid a lot of money on by their previous teams. Most of the others have played with the same team they signed with. Carter was signed by the Flyers but didn't play with them under his current contract. Different situation

I'm chill...

This doesn't change anything, the teams that signed those contracts will get the penalties.

Canucks will get screwed not the Panthers and Nashville will get screwed not us.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Why would teams be rewarded for those contracts? If a cap recapture credit was a thing, I think it would be mentioned right there in that table.

Also, the goal was to punish teams for cap circumvention, not reward teams for acquiring players that had cap circumventing contracts. A credit would increase such players trade values and benefit the teams that were supposed to be punished.

 

[Hostile Offer]

The more I think about it, I guess it's addressed based on picking up a contract after most of the money is paid. The credit is you get a player for an AAV but pay him less cause the previous team payed him the large salary years. The only two contracts I can think about are the Weber and Luongo contracts

I'm starting to get your point but you're making this more complicated than it is. The trade market defines the benefit of taking on cap and term with low actual salary and cap floor teams are constantly using it. Better to just leave it at that.

Either way I don't think it's likely at all that Weber ever formally retires during this contract.

 

[MaxDummy]

It doesn't make sense because it's a penalty, getting more cap space is not a penalty it's an advantage.

I told why this penalty exists, it's there to punish teams that tried to screw the system.

Yup. And the team who tried To screw the system was PHI, not NSH. Nashville werent even spending To the cap anyways. Add To that the fact they paid more than 60% of Weber salary for only 30% of the lenght .. they also paid the majority of the bonuses...

If a team got screwed in the Weber contract its the Preds..

 

[Roke]

Cap recapture's a red herring, nobody's going to get hit by it for any contract.

Players are better off going onto LTIR after they're done playing like Hossa and Zetterberg have rather than retire and forgo the few million they're still owed on their contract.

 

[habsfan92]

I would think at the point Shea wants to retire, the Pred's trade back for him and slide him into a LTIR position instead. Will cost them either way.