Player Discussion Shea Weber

[CristianoRonaldo]

It's all part of the plan to help the tank, when MB the genius traded Subban for Weber he knew that we will tank during 2018-2019 and that Weber will get injured and require not only one but two surgeries.

We are so lucky to have you Marc Bergevin.
Foresight master strike again.

 

[ArtPeur]

Next thing you know, he's going to have a surgery on his hip in January

 

[jordy]

Trading the Cadillac for the old ****** Toyota with no air conditioner brakes or automatic door locks. What could go wrong?

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Trading the Cadillac for the old ****** Toyota with no air conditioner brakes or automatic door locks. What could go wrong?

Not sure this analogy is correct. Caddys were crappy luxury cars that were prone to issues and outclassed by Euro vehicles. Toyotas are vehicles that lasted longer and with barely any issues for up to 250k of use. Shea Weber has a reputation of reliability, but he actually performs worse on the road than at home. The Game 7 against San Jose makes him more of a garage queen

Lack of A/C was something all the lower end makes offered until the 90s, when A/C practically became standard.

 

[the]

The Cadillac is flashy and flamboyant meanwhile the Toyota is meh and boring.

Peekay is the Caddy

Man Mountain is the Corolla

 

[jordy]

The Cadillac is flashy and flamboyant meanwhile the Toyota is meh and boring.

Peekay is the Caddy

Man Mountain is the Corolla

Exactly. What my point was. What could go wrong getting the old ***** broken down toyota?

 

[ryan callahan]

Exactly. What my point was. What could go wrong getting the old ***** broken down toyota?

Except Weber isn't really broken down. When not injured, he is still a top 15 NHL defenseman in the same category as Subban although with not the same style at all. The trade wasn't that good because Weber isn't better than Subban and we got the older and therefore more injury prone and decline prone, but stop talking **** on Weber. He makes a world's difference when he is in the lineup. Without him the Habs D might as well be 5 orange pylons with Petry.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

Except Weber isn't really broken down.

Wait, what? This guy is only 32 — should be in his prime, anchoring the defense of the entire franchise — but instead looks like he won't play for us for an entire 12-month period.

If anyone's curious, PK played a total of 95 games last season.

 

[mariolemieux66]

Wait, what? This guy is only 32 — should be in his prime, anchoring the defense of the entire franchise — but instead looks like he won't play for us for an entire 12-month period.

If anyone's curious, PK played a total of 95 games last season.

120 points in 183 games for PK Subban since the trade.
61 points in 112 games for Weber since the trade.

 

[Pickles]

Trading the Cadillac for the old ****** Toyota with no air conditioner brakes or automatic door locks. What could go wrong?

More like trading a racehorse for an old plow horse.

 

[FormerLurker]

Might as well call this the Confirmation Bias thread.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

Might as well call this the Confirmation Bias thread.

where's the confirmation bias?

numbers don't lie, bud.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Might as well call this the Confirmation Bias thread.

Or the ''we were right'' thread, for those whom it concerns.

 

[OldCraig71]

Trading the Cadillac for the old ****** Toyota with no air conditioner brakes or automatic door locks. What could go wrong?

But it's a Toyota argues Bergevin, even in a broken down state it still can get the job done.

 

[Genesis76]

Next thing you know, he's going to have a surgery on his hip in January

Then in his right hand by June.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

120 points in 183 games for PK Subban since the trade.
61 points in 112 games for Weber since the trade.

No confirmation bias here, one player has been almost twice as valuable when you factor games played, production and overall contribution to team success.

This isn't even close. One of the worst trades in habs history and it will only get worse with each passing year.

 

[dcyhabs]

I think the habs exposed a problem with corsi last year. There are high danger chances and then there are "complete breakdown leaving goalie with no hope." The habs were generally not great but there were long stretches where they would give up a goal or two a game that were of a type you normally don't see in the NHL where the coverage was so completely messed up that opposing forwards would be able to pass across the crease with no one to interfere, they could toy with the goalie. The team was playing at a level way below NHL standards and it skewed save percentages, shooting percentaged and so on. Corsi is a good indication if the teams are playing similarly, if one team is totally confused and allowing easy tap ins it is less effective.

If they haven't worked out the system to prevent this, with or without Weber, the habs will not only lose again they will actively make their goalies worse. I don't think any goalie can keep a good mental state when they are completely exposed this way. Niemi did better than Price and Lindgren but then he came in later in the year when the team was allowing a lot less of those goals.

I expect the problem was a combination of high turnover, low skill, and changing systems. They ditched a lot of good or at least dimensional players (Emelin could hit, Beaulieu could skate, Markov could pass, new guys could sort of handle third pairing minutes, maybe) and brought in loads of third pairing players. Julien's system is very different, from Therrien's, Therrien went for simplicity and effort, Julien wanted complexity and stuff that the players, and possibly the assistant coaches, could not figure out.

If they don't work out the system the personnel does not matter. And players who leave Montreal will look just fine after they leave, just like last year. Morrow looked horrible here but he was OK on a different team. I'm sure Price would go back to good stats on a better team with a D that would not hang him out to dry.

Petry's advanced stats looked OK last year, it looked like he was unlucky and eventually the goals for % should catch up, but the habs were so inept at playing the system Julien tried to install that a low shooting percentage and a low save percentage were to be expected, and can be expected to continue. The advanced stats give false hope.

Was Markov the most effective defensive coach last year? Will the new assistants work things out? We'll see...

 

[Archijerej]

I think the habs exposed a problem with corsi last year. There are high danger chances and then there are "complete breakdown leaving goalie with no hope." The habs were generally not great but there were long stretches where they would give up a goal or two a game that were of a type you normally don't see in the NHL where the coverage was so completely messed up that opposing forwards would be able to pass across the crease with no one to interfere, they could toy with the goalie. The team was playing at a level way below NHL standards and it skewed save percentages, shooting percentaged and so on. Corsi is a good indication if the teams are playing similarly, if one team is totally confused and allowing easy tap ins it is less effective.

If they haven't worked out the system to prevent this, with or without Weber, the habs will not only lose again they will actively make their goalies worse. I don't think any goalie can keep a good mental state when they are completely exposed this way. Niemi did better than Price and Lindgren but then he came in later in the year when the team was allowing a lot less of those goals.

I expect the problem was a combination of high turnover, low skill, and changing systems. They ditched a lot of good or at least dimensional players (Emelin could hit, Beaulieu could skate, Markov could pass, new guys could sort of handle third pairing minutes, maybe) and brought in loads of third pairing players. Julien's system is very different, from Therrien's, Therrien went for simplicity and effort, Julien wanted complexity and stuff that the players, and possibly the assistant coaches, could not figure out.

If they don't work out the system the personnel does not matter. And players who leave Montreal will look just fine after they leave, just like last year. Morrow looked horrible here but he was OK on a different team. I'm sure Price would go back to good stats on a better team with a D that would not hang him out to dry.

Petry's advanced stats looked OK last year, it looked like he was unlucky and eventually the goals for % should catch up, but the habs were so inept at playing the system Julien tried to install that a low shooting percentage and a low save percentage were to be expected, and can be expected to continue. The advanced stats give false hope.

Was Markov the most effective defensive coach last year? Will the new assistants work things out? We'll see...

Excellent post.

 

[member 256847]

But it's a Toyota argues Bergevin, even in a broken down state it still can get the job done.

When you get offered a Toyota, you don't ask for more.

 

[ottawa]

Meh...play him out, maybe he'll come back from this. Buyout is always an option when he's around 35 or 36. It'll cost the preds a lot due to recapture penalty but I think his cap hit with us would only be 1m according to cap friendly

Shea Weber Contract Buyout Details - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

 

[TouzY]

Why not TRADE Weber ? Get a first round pick before he loses all value because of injury prone and old age. Keeping him is absolutly useless. Ask Edm for their first they might give it up for Weber. They traded Eberle for strome and Hall for Larsson maybe they have another bad trade in the tank.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I think the habs exposed a problem with corsi last year. There are high danger chances and then there are "complete breakdown leaving goalie with no hope." The habs were generally not great but there were long stretches where they would give up a goal or two a game that were of a type you normally don't see in the NHL where the coverage was so completely messed up that opposing forwards would be able to pass across the crease with no one to interfere, they could toy with the goalie. The team was playing at a level way below NHL standards and it skewed save percentages, shooting percentaged and so on. Corsi is a good indication if the teams are playing similarly, if one team is totally confused and allowing easy tap ins it is less effective.

If they haven't worked out the system to prevent this, with or without Weber, the habs will not only lose again they will actively make their goalies worse. I don't think any goalie can keep a good mental state when they are completely exposed this way. Niemi did better than Price and Lindgren but then he came in later in the year when the team was allowing a lot less of those goals.

I expect the problem was a combination of high turnover, low skill, and changing systems. They ditched a lot of good or at least dimensional players (Emelin could hit, Beaulieu could skate, Markov could pass, new guys could sort of handle third pairing minutes, maybe) and brought in loads of third pairing players. Julien's system is very different, from Therrien's, Therrien went for simplicity and effort, Julien wanted complexity and stuff that the players, and possibly the assistant coaches, could not figure out.

If they don't work out the system the personnel does not matter. And players who leave Montreal will look just fine after they leave, just like last year. Morrow looked horrible here but he was OK on a different team. I'm sure Price would go back to good stats on a better team with a D that would not hang him out to dry.

Petry's advanced stats looked OK last year, it looked like he was unlucky and eventually the goals for % should catch up, but the habs were so inept at playing the system Julien tried to install that a low shooting percentage and a low save percentage were to be expected, and can be expected to continue. The advanced stats give false hope.

Was Markov the most effective defensive coach last year? Will the new assistants work things out? We'll see...

Corsi should be viewed almost as an ''at bat.'' Something to be divided by. A corsi event can have a 1/5 to a 1/50 chance of creating a goal, just based on shot location and nothing else. Good scorers tend to have a lot of corsi just like good hitters tend to have a lot of at bats. In terms of runs/goals created though, corsi/at bats are just a measure of attempts. All the rest of the information is in what kind of corsi events are generated, and what the player can typically do with them.

 

[Miller Time]

Except Weber isn't really broken down. When not injured, he is still a top 15 NHL defenseman in the same category as Subban although with not the same style at all. The trade wasn't that good because Weber isn't better than Subban and we got the older and therefore more injury prone and decline prone, but stop talking **** on Weber. He makes a world's difference when he is in the lineup. Without him the Habs D might as well be 5 orange pylons with Petry.

For a large chunk of last season, the team had a better record when Weber was out than with him in the lineup.

 

[NotProkofievian]

For a large chunk of last season, the team had a better record when Weber was out than with him in the lineup.

Yeah, but that's just because Weber was injured while he was playing so amazingly well omg guys he had 16 points in 25 games if he weren't injured he'd have won the Norris with less than 35 games played but still the only reason we were losing with him in the lineup was his injury plz don't look at his GA/60.

 

[LaP]

You got it all wrong. Markov is a shining example of a player who maintained a high level of play well into his late 30's and is frequently brought up by MB cheerleaders as an example of why Weber's horrific contract really doesn't matter. He was excellent right up until the day that Bergevin decided not to bring him back, at which point he became GARBAGE according to these same people.

Markov has a higher hockey IQ than Weber though. Player with very high hockey IQ like Markov tend to age very well. Markov did slowdown considerably after he turned 35. He had success playing with Subban in 2014-2015 but he was not the guy who made Komisarek looks like a 4.5 millions player anymore. People forget Markov used to be a 60 points dman playing with a crappy offensive team and with crappy partners (the kind of partners Weber never had the "chance" to play with).

Weber will remain a good dman. Guys of his skills level just don't break overnight. But moving forward he likely wont be that top 10 dman anymore. And considering what we paid he kind of need to keep being that top 10 for at least another 5 years. I just don't see it happening personally.