Player Discussion Shea Weber: Oh Captain, My Captain Edition

[ImNeverWrong]

If you're going to make up stuff about Weber being injured & marginal for three seasons, this is no longer a serious discussion. Which is fine. Just let me know whether we're discussing the player or the caricature.

i just posted the facts.

 

[EXPOS123]

He’s played 220 of a possible 306 games......

that my friend is 71.9%.....as in he’s played 71.9% of the games......

im thinking maths isn’t your forte, up there with your ability in evaluating players.

Don’t appreciate your condescending remarks. Unlike you I have a life and don’t have time to look up the exact #’s. The whole point is is he has been injured a lot during his time here. If you still believe that this was a good trade then good for you - there’s plenty of other smarter posters than you that would agree with me.

 

[jaffy27]

Man Mountain turning into Shea Butter. What does the future hold? Weber has not led this team to the playoffs let alone a SCF. Will the Habs even be able to trade him for something meaningful in return? That sums up his career as a Hab to date.

Eichel has led his team to massive disappointments year in year out, maybe we should trade them for each other. Sums up Eichel’s career so far with the Sabres

 

[Lshap]

Years after trade

Year	Weber	Subban
1 (Regular season)	78 games - 42 pts (0.54 ppg)	66 games - 40 pts (0.61 ppg)
1 (playoffs)	6 games - 3 pts (0.5 ppg)	22 games -12 pts (0.55 ppg)
2 (Regular season)	26 games - 16 pts (0.61ppg)	82 games - 59 pts (0.72 ppg)
2 (Playoffs)	NO PLAYOFFS	13 games - 9 pts (0.69 ppg)
3 (Regular season)	58 games - 33 pts ( 0.57 ppg)	63 games - 31 pts (0.49 ppg)
3 (Playoffs)	NO PLAYOFFS	6 games - 3 pts (0.5 ppg)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So what you posted was revisionist history. first 2 years was clearly subban. PLAYOFFS COUNT. 3rd year is a wash, Weber's inability to lift his team to the playoffs is once again a major negative and a statement of his overrated career.

Playoffs count for the team, not the player. The same playoff-weighted chart would show Therrien is a much better coach than Julien.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Same with the Danault trade, the Domi trade, the Armia trade, the Petry trade, the Suzuki and Tatar trade, non of these trades have propelled us to anything, I’m guessing Bergevin should have executed non of them since....you know....non helped us at all

Bergevin is trying hard to built a team all by trades. Because all he have from the team's inner players are Price, Gallagher, Lehkonen, Mete and Evans. He have Weber from the Subban trade, Domi from the Galchenyuk trade, Danault from the Diaz -to- Weise and Fleshman trade and Suzuki-Tatar from the Paccioretty trade. So all in all in order of importance it is Price, Weber, Tatar, Suzuki, Danault, Domi, Lehkonen and Evans. Having a good team with mostly trades is impossible.

This Weber discussion is getting nowhere. Weber does his best in a mediocre organisation\situation. I can't blame him. Subban wasn't making the Habs winning at the end with us. He was fast his first two seasons, then he bulked some muscles and he got slower. I loved his celebrations, his flashy moves, his smile and his donnation to the children hospital but that doesn't change that this team is badly built from the beginning. Paccioretty was a top shooter that never got a quality center, Habs survived as long as they could with an aging Plekanec and now we have to wait until a young centerman developp.

 

[jaffy27]

Don’t appreciate your condescending remarks. Unlike you I have a life and don’t have time to look up the exact #’s. The whole point is is he has been injured a lot during his time here. If you still believe that this was a good trade then good for you - there’s plenty of other smarter posters than you that would agree with me.

Exact numbers!!!!

You’re shouting out numbers that are WAAAAAAAY OFF!!!....

it’s not like he’s missed 28% and you were claiming 31......that would be splitting hairs.

Your numbers are grossly false just to prove a point that is not.

I never claimed myself to be the smartest, I’m so far removed from that distinction

If you want to say he’s missed a lot of games then say he’s missed a lot of games, and in reality, it’s under 30%

 

[ArtPeur]

Same with the Danault trade, the Domi trade, the Armia trade, the Petry trade, the Suzuki and Tatar trade, non of these trades have propelled us to anything, I’m guessing Bergevin should have executed non of them since....you know....non helped us at all

Most trades that you're talking about still filled up spots that were empty. The Weber trade didn't fill up anything. If Subban was to be traded, I was wishing for a package.

As much as production is concerned, Weber can't keep up his strong start for a full season. Before his injury, he had a whole 1g,2a in 13 games or so. I believe his production/game would be lower if he was still playing full seasons. But now he can't.

 

[BLONG7]

Bergevin is trying hard to built a team all by trades. Because all he have from the team's inner players are Price, Gallagher, Lehkonen, Mete and Evans. He have Weber from the Subban trade, Domi from the Galchenyuk trade, Danault from the Diaz -to- Weise and Fleshman trade and Suzuki-Tatar from the Paccioretty trade. So all in all in order of importance it is Price, Weber, Tatar, Suzuki, Danault, Domi, Lehkonen and Evans. Having a good team with mostly trades is impossible.

This Weber discussion is getting nowhere. Weber does his best in a mediocre organisation\situation. I can't blame him. Subban wasn't making the Habs winning at the end with us. He was fast his first two seasons, then he bulked some muscles and he got slower. I loved his celebrations, his flashy moves, his smile and his donnation to the children hospital but that doesn't change that this team is badly built from the beginning. Paccioretty was a top shooter that never got a quality center, Habs survived as long as they could with an aging Plekanec and now we have to wait until a young centerman developp.

He said 8 years ago, he would bruild through the draft, and 8 years later, has never once added a 1st round pick. He has done way too many trades, and he has actually made some nice moves, but most have been nothing moves. When you are a clown and can't entice ufa's then the draft is ALL you have.

We have NO true #1 C man, and for 3 years now, we don't have any puck moving dmen, but Petry. These things just keep have us going round in circles...

 

[DangerDave]

So much shit talking about Weber. You want to see the impact he has on the team then just watch the games now. Price is making 40 saves a game standing on his head and we're still losing badly.

Don't blame a single player. This is a bad TEAM assembled by a bad GM. Put Weber on a solid team and give him a decent partner and he'll look like a Norris trophy finalist.

 

[RandR]

Depends how you look at it. Player v. player Weber's overall contribution has been better over the four seasons. I mean, advantage might eventually go to Subban if Weber's done, but as of now Montreal comes out ahead.

On the other hand, it's fair to say the team didn't get better. Lose a #1D, gain a #1D. Net difference... hardly worth it. In that respect it was a huge opportunity lost. As usual with Bergevin, it comes down to his lack of team-building. Getting Weber could've been great if Bergevin kept Radulov and added another solid vet or two. Or it could've been great if he'd gotten a 1st-round pick/top prospect/upcoming star. Doing neither meant he created a lot of noise for nothing.

The one thing I admit drives me nuts is when someone ties the Habs decline to Weber, as if he was the reason the team sucked. That's just a lazy excuse. It's like saying we should've kept Therrien because the team was so much better under him than Julien. The lesson is you can acquire the better guy and still suck if the overall team has no plan.

Excellent post. I agree with all of it. If I may add one thing... Habs management were relieved to get rid of Subban before his no-trade clause kicked in a week later, otherwise they would have been stuck with him and his "big personality" for another 6 seasons. And I think Bergevin was glad to get another #1D back instead of creating one hole to fill another. So even if the trade was a wash due to no net difference on the ice in terms of results, I have to think that Habs management much prefer Weber's quiet leadership style over PK's more showman style.

Aside from that... for next year one of the most intriguing stories on the ice will be if Romanov can become a future first pairing D. I think he can and eventually will, and similar to how the Bruins paired McAvoy with Chara, I can't imagine a better mentor for Romanov than Weber.

 

[hockeyfan2k18]

Playoffs count for the team, not the player. The same playoff-weighted chart would show Therrien is a much better coach than Julien.

So his health has no impact on the team's ability to make it to the playoffs?

 

[Lshap]

Excellent post. I agree with all of it. If I may add one thing... Habs management were relieved to get rid of Subban before his no-trade clause kicked in a week later, otherwise they would have been stuck with him and his "big personality" for another 6 seasons. And I think Bergevin was glad to get another #1D back instead of creating one hole to fill another. So even if the trade was a wash due to no net difference on the ice in terms of results, I have to think that Habs management much prefer Weber's quiet leadership style over PK's more showman style.

Aside from that... for next year one of the most intriguing stories on the ice will be if Romanov can become a future first pairing D. I think he can and eventually will, and similar to how the Bruins paired McAvoy with Chara, I can't imagine a better mentor for Romanov than Weber.

Mentoring and leadership have real value in life, so I'll assume the player and coach's positive comments about Weber are true. As to Subban, the chemistry may have gone sour, but like most group dynamics it usually comes down to fit, not fault.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Eichel has led his team to massive disappointments year in year out, maybe we should trade them for each other. Sums up Eichel’s career so far with the Sabres

We really should!

 

[hockeyfan2k18]

Excellent post. I agree with all of it. If I may add one thing... Habs management were relieved to get rid of Subban before his no-trade clause kicked in a week later, otherwise they would have been stuck with him and his "big personality" for another 6 seasons. And I think Bergevin was glad to get another #1D back instead of creating one hole to fill another. So even if the trade was a wash due to no net difference on the ice in terms of results, I have to think that Habs management much prefer Weber's quiet leadership style over PK's more showman style.

Aside from that... for next year one of the most intriguing stories on the ice will be if Romanov can become a future first pairing D. I think he can and eventually will, and similar to how the Bruins paired McAvoy with Chara, I can't imagine a better mentor for Romanov than Weber.

People talk as if PK was all show...I remember watching the playoffs where PK was the best player on the ice sometimes and scored timely goals. Shut down other players. Also remember the criticism when he was leading the team in scoring, Price was injured and was blamed for the team not making the playoffs.

But people play so much revisionist history around here. Been so far from the playoffs they forget what it was like to be in the Conference finals or having a SHOT at doing damage in the playoffs. It's not all on Weber but he's an injury plagued dman on a crappy team. Good player, but on the downside of his career.

The trade has done nothing and but was cheered as being a deal that would improve the team. Weber's leadership, gaze, trucculence, etc all was peddled to us by management and fanboys and haters about how that alone would put the team over the top. It had the opposite effect.

Now all of a sudden raising ones game in the playoffs isn't important. That's why I take a step back from sports in general. Some fans are just too invested in the team they have to defend them no matter how ridiculous.

PK gets no benefit of the doubt, Weber gets all the benefit of the doubt. It's really a cultural thing but people refuse to admit their optics are heavily influenced. Of all sports, the NHL is the worst in this regard.

And any other player who has done the amount of community work Subban has done, and embraced the craziness of the fans here and the media...he would be heralded as a god. But all we hear about Subban is it was a tax right off, he didn't use his own money, he loves the attention. Then cry about how players don't want to come here. Some of the most miserable fans around.

 

[Lshap]

So his health has no impact on the team's ability to make it to the playoffs?

Both players have health issues. Subban's injuries have been affecting his career for two years. Weber's current injury might affect his career, but we don't know anything yet.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I'm surprised people are still comparing Subban and Weber. As far as I'm concerned we won that trade quite easily. Was it the best trade we could make? No but it was a win.

Nashville's success is a weird flex, It's like saying Price sucked entire time because other goalies like Michael Leighton brought their team to the finals. Players contribute to the team result but they shouldn't be judged on it like that.

Weber is and has always been in an unfortunate scenario. When nashville didn't spend he was in his prime. When he wanted to leave they kept him, forcing him to stay during their rebuild. When their rebuild was over they traded him for the younger player. Where did he go? To a team in need of a rebuild. A team 99% of us agree was missing top end talent with Subban or Weber so this has nothing to do with the trade.

It is what it is. That's why signing these massive deals hurts because you sign away your freedom or changing teams.

All the respect in the world to both players, but I am baffled people continue to push this agenda and attempt to marginalize a player.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

So his health has no impact on the team's ability to make it to the playoffs?

Are you implying we're currently out of a playoff spot because Weber missed so many games this year?

 

[CHfan1]

Both teams lost the trade, however the Habs did get the better player in the end.

 

[Frank Drebin]

No slight to weber but I'd take Subban's time as a hab over Webber's any day.

Who wouldn't? Subban was insane for his first few years here. He had the best years of his career as a Canadien.

Just like Weber (one b, not 2) had his best years as a Pred.

The trade was an exchange of two defenseman past their primes, we just didn't know it at the time.

Since then, Subbans decline has been much steeper, and Weber has spent more time on the ir.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Are you implying we're currently out of a playoff spot because Weber missed so many games this year?

There is no one player that makes our tem missing the PO but a group of players. We missed Drouin when he was at his best, we missed Byron from the beginning, then we missed Gallagher, Armia and now Weber. And also Price wasn't good in november. It's a mixture of all those injuries, because healty and 100% of the roster I beleive Habs are in the playoffs. The thing is: good teams can survive without one or two of their core players (ex Crosby with the Pens) but not the Habs. Now with Weber out, with all the points we need to make it, it's 99% sure the Habs will not make the PO.

 

[ImNeverWrong]

Playoffs count for the team, not the player. The same playoff-weighted chart would show Therrien is a much better coach than Julien.

Okay great, so even when the stats favor subban...you can't accept the facts.

Playoffs don't count, because it's a team stat...so even if subban is the teams best dman, it's irrelevant because his entire production only happened because HIS team took him there.

Seems like you have every excuse in the book ready to dismiss PK while putting shea on a pedestal.

Bargainbin is a complete clown so lets look at nashville. Why did they trade weber, when they knew they were on the hook for the cap recapture? They realized he wasn't this superstar which the Hockey world anointed him as and the Preds had dreams of winning the cup. Clearly something they were never close to with weber, the furthest they got was to the 2nd round. Do you remember Webers last game as a pred? game 7 vs the sharks, where he was -3 and a complete turnstile. Yah, i don't remember subban EVER being that awful in any meaningful game. Making that swap alone, allowed the preds to go to the cup finals and make many pred fans conclude subban was the best player for them in the playoffs.

So if you want to dismiss the 'extra' games that subban played in the playoffs because its a "team stat"...lets look at their entire body of work WHILE IN the playoffs.

Weber - 65 games, 31 pts, 0.48ppg, -8 ...pretty far off from his reg season average of 0.58 ppg and +48.

Subban - 96 games. 62 pts, 0.65 ppg, +1....damn that's good and actual improvement over his regular season of 0.60 ppg and +34.

One player here clearly elevated his game in the playoffs, and the other crumbles and gets traded directly because of it. Oh but it's just a "team stat"

 

[ImNeverWrong]

Who wouldn't? Subban was insane for his first few years here. He had the best years of his career as a Canadien.

Just like Weber (one b, not 2) had his best years as a Pred.

The trade was an exchange of two defenseman past their primes, we just didn't know it at the time.

Since then, Subbans decline has been much steeper, and Weber has spent more time on the ir.

after the trade subban LED his team to the finals and got a norris nomination. Weber has done nothing outside shoot the puck very hard in a skills competition.

 

[ahmedou]

No “Savior” No Party

 

[PaulD]

Dude he’s been injured 60% of his time here which is why he is a pilon the other 40% of the time he’s actually healthy enough to play. And that he has a slight uptick in points this year is not gonna make up for his increasing lack of mobility and speed.

Webers "slight uptick in points" ....... has him on pace for more goals in one season than Subban scored in his prime.

 

[PaulD]

after the trade subban LED his team to the finals and got a norris nomination. Weber has done nothing outside shoot the puck very hard in a skills competition.

and score more goals than Subban.

Rinne lead the team to the finals. When he came back down to earth , the Pens took care of Subban and the Preds with ease.

out scoring them 8-0 in the finals two games with the Cup on the line.

It was all Rinne