Confirmed with Link: Shayne Gostisbehere Signs Multi-Year Extension (Six Years $4.5M Per)

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

the point needs to be said again.
why do folks go to the main board knowing full well that the trolls are going to irritate the hell out of you?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

the point needs to be said again.
why do folks go to the main board knowing full well that the trolls are going to irritate the hell out of you?

Because it's funny.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Because it's funny.

Some of it is amusing. I just dont see the point of getting worked up over it.
Maybe it is just my old age kicking and not letting things bother the **** out of me anymore

 

[bauer]

Some of it is amusing. I just dont see the point of getting worked up over it.
Maybe it is just my old age kicking and not letting things bother the **** out of me anymore

i don't think anyone here gets too worked up over stuff they read there. i just at the stuff i read. some stuff is funny, but most i just end up .

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

i don't think anyone here gets too worked up over stuff they read there. i just at the stuff i read. some stuff is funny, but most i just end up .

seems to be that one guy mostly in the Ghost thead and umm yeah I dont think he is going to be a problem anymore

 

[FLYguy3911]

Gostisbehere's first 2 seasons average out to a shade under 50 points/82 games. If a 28 year old forward is a 50 point player he's getting at least $5 million per season on the open market. Teams pay for points.

Last season was the year from hell for Ghost. Everything that could have went wrong did go wrong. It may be a blessing in disguise as it surely bumped the cap hit down on this contract. If they actually play this kid with competent partners and Dave doesn't baby him, we might just see him take his game to another level.

 

[Patrick Division]

What did he say?

He deleted it but it was something along the lines of -Good thing they signed Ghost or Vegas would have taken him- Timmy doesn't get that we could protect him anyway.

 

[Rebels57]

He deleted it but it was something along the lines of -Good thing they signed Ghost or Vegas would have taken him- Timmy doesn't get that we could protect him anyway.

****ing moron.

 

[Lindberg]

Gostisbehere's first 2 seasons average out to a shade under 50 points/82 games. If a 28 year old forward is a 50 point player he's getting at least $5 million per season on the open market. Teams pay for points.

Last season was the year from hell for Ghost. Everything that could have went wrong did go wrong. It may be a blessing in disguise as it surely bumped the cap hit down on this contract. If they actually play this kid with competent partners and Dave doesn't baby him, we might just see him take his game to another level.

I'm certainly of the opinion that the defensive side of the game is a lot easier to groom into a player. Seems like more often than not that it really just takes time to lock down the habits to play a quality D game. The offensive side is either you have it or don't.

 

[HighOFFHockey]

I'm certainly of the opinion that the defensive side of the game is a lot easier to groom into a player. Seems like more often than not that it really just takes time to lock down the habits to play a quality D game. The offensive side is either you have it or don't.

Flyers fans are dancing in the street over this Ghost signing. We know what we have.
For everyone thinking Flyers are making moves, we have almost no reason to...

Lindbolm - Giroux - Voracek
Konecky - Hischier/Patrick - Simmonds
Weal - Coots - Schenn
PEB - Filpulla - Read/Raffl
Cousins - Laughton - Weise
Rubtsov - Vecchione -

Provorov - Ghost
Sanheim - Myers
Morin - Hagg
Amac - Gudas

All of those lines are up in the air and sure they are young players, but we are full. We need a goalie, but only if Neuvirth gets snagged in the expansion draft. Flyers are in a luxury position, they have plenty of cap space moving forward and will not be making a move unless a team is desperate. So if there are pieces coming the other way, it probably will be in the Flyers favor.


I have a spreadsheet for all of this if anyone is interested. (work in progress)
FLYERS PROSPECTS LINK

 

[StandingCow]

Gostisbehere's first 2 seasons average out to a shade under 50 points/82 games. If a 28 year old forward is a 50 point player he's getting at least $5 million per season on the open market. Teams pay for points.

Last season was the year from hell for Ghost. Everything that could have went wrong did go wrong. It may be a blessing in disguise as it surely bumped the cap hit down on this contract. If they actually play this kid with competent partners and Dave doesn't baby him, we might just see him take his game to another level.

I am not even sure we should worry about last season's slump... I mean the entire team seemed to be in a slump, not just a few players.

 

[deadhead]

I'm certainly of the opinion that the defensive side of the game is a lot easier to groom into a player. Seems like more often than not that it really just takes time to lock down the habits to play a quality D game. The offensive side is either you have it or don't.

Actually it's the opposite.

Guys without offensive skills MUST play defense to even make a roster, so self-selection eliminates those who won't pay the price.

Players with offensive skills are often coddled in junior and college, and need hard coaching to play defense and be responsible (face it, the scorers get the chicks!). Which is why you see so many offense only players who don't want to forecheck or go to the net or are lazy getting back on defense.

What made Provorov special is an advanced defensive game for a 19 year old combined with superior offensive skills.

I think Ghost, because he was his team's offense in college, tends to drift on defense - and missing a full AHL season due to injury hurt his development. This is why they wanted Sanheim in the AHL, and in a role where defense came first, they didn't need to teach him how to skate, pass and shoot.

Ghost is not going to be a shutdown defenseman, and that's not the expectation. What they want from him is to cut back on the sloppy turnovers with no one behind him where he tries to do too much, the bad passes in his D-zone, and to use his speed to position himself better on the backcheck instead of gambling to break up the play. He can't get bigger, he can play smarter.

 

[Juicy Pop]

the point needs to be said again.
why do folks go to the main board knowing full well that the trolls are going to irritate the hell out of you?

I rarely get worked up; it's just fun to poke the bear and see what they say.

 

[Striiker]

It's definitely easier to become competent defensively than it is to magically gain offensive skills.

Like if you take someone who is absolute trash at both, like Vandevelde, and you groom him for years and years to try to get him to improve at one side of the game, it'll be a lot more likely he can become decent defensively than it is that he'll become a scorer.

He isn't saying you can just suddenly go from being terrible defensively to being Provorov-level, but if you don't have any offensive skill you aren't suddenly getting some, while defense is something that can be learned.

 

[BernieParent]

Actually it's the opposite.

Guys without offensive skills MUST play defense to even make a roster, so self-selection eliminates those who won't pay the price.

Players with offensive skills are often coddled in junior and college, and need hard coaching to play defense and be responsible (face it, the scorers get the chicks!). Which is why you see so many offense only players who don't want to forecheck or go to the net or are lazy getting back on defense.

What made Provorov special is an advanced defensive game for a 19 year old combined with superior offensive skills.

I think Ghost, because he was his team's offense in college, tends to drift on defense - and missing a full AHL season due to injury hurt his development. This is why they wanted Sanheim in the AHL, and in a role where defense came first, they didn't need to teach him how to skate, pass and shoot.

Ghost is not going to be a shutdown defenseman, and that's not the expectation. What they want from him is to cut back on the sloppy turnovers with no one behind him where he tries to do too much, the bad passes in his D-zone, and to use his speed to position himself better on the backcheck instead of gambling to break up the play. He can't get bigger, he can play smarter.

Quite true, plus we can reasonably assume that Gostisbehere will soon have a partner who can better cover for his mistakes by being faster and a just plain better defender. Gostisbehere and Hakstol have to find the happy medium between using his offensive creativity and not making ridiculously risky plays.

 

[deadhead]

He isn't saying you can just suddenly go from being terrible defensively to being Provorov-level, but if you don't have any offensive skill you aren't suddenly getting some, while defense is something that can be learned.

It can be learned, but whether it will be learned is a combination of character and hard coaching.

There are two traps for young players, one comes with success, where the player gets his ego stroked and sees no reason why he needs to do the "dirty work," let the less talented players play that role. The other is failure, suddenly the puck stops going in and the player presses and tries to do too much and makes bad mistakes.

Couts is a good example why young players often ignore defense, because he doesn't put up big numbers a lot of fans (and media) underrate him, as if stopping the other team from scoring has no value. If a young player reads his press clippings, scoring a few goals or racking up points can convince him he's a star and he doesn't need to work hard on improving his overall game.

Coaches review film and know who makes bad turnovers, who is out of position, who shies away from forechecking or backchecking or going into the corner to retrieve pucks. Coaches love players like Couts, because they not only score their share of points, but the other team struggles to score when they're on the ice.

Analytics are changing this perception, as it has become possible to quantify the relative value of two way players, possession guys (Read, Weiss and Raffl), etc. Corsi and CorsiRel tells you who controls the pace of the game, raw scoring is supplemented by GF/60 and GA/60 and GF%, +/- by E +/- which factors out goalies and luck.

 

[TheKingPin]

Flyers fans are dancing in the street over this Ghost signing. We know what we have.
For everyone thinking Flyers are making moves, we have almost no reason to...

Lindbolm - Giroux - Voracek
Konecky - Hischier/Patrick - Simmonds
Weal - Coots - Schenn
PEB - Filpulla - Read/Raffl
Cousins - Laughton - Weise
Rubtsov - Vecchione -

Provorov - Ghost
Sanheim - Myers
Morin - Hagg
Amac - Gudas

All of those lines are up in the air and sure they are young players, but we are full. We need a goalie, but only if Neuvirth gets snagged in the expansion draft. Flyers are in a luxury position, they have plenty of cap space moving forward and will not be making a move unless a team is desperate. So if there are pieces coming the other way, it probably will be in the Flyers favor.


I have a spreadsheet for all of this if anyone is interested. (work in progress)
FLYERS PROSPECTS LINK

I mean we are really going to be loaded next year. It's going to be a lot of fun. The 2OA is such a huge plus. We didn't NEED them YET but it's great to have it. Really beefs up the lineup.

 

[54fightin]

I have not been on the HF Flyers board for a few days so apologies if any of this has been brought up. But one point on the recent discussion, if Andy Delmore could have learned some defensive skills he might be in the HOF. Another point that is probably pure coincidence but Ghost has played his best when Streit was not in the lineup. He came up when Streit was injured and played well. His play (in my opinion) dropped off a little at the end of his rookie year when Streit returned from IR. And his play improved (again maybe coincidentally) after Streit was traded

 

[Rebels57]

I have not been on the HF Flyers board for a few days so apologies if any of this has been brought up. But one point on the recent discussion, if Andy Delmore could have learned some defensive skills he might be in the HOF. Another point that is probably pure coincidence but Ghost has played his best when Streit was not in the lineup. He came up when Streit was injured and played well. His play (in my opinion) dropped off a little at the end of his rookie year when Streit returned from IR. And his play improved (again maybe coincidentally) after Streit was traded

That's a good observation. Not sure how connected the two are other than the times that Ghost had to play with Streit as a partner, which was cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

He was playing with a hernia later in the season. That & probably some regression to the mean was likely the biggest reason he started coming back down later in the year last year.

Obviously he had to deal with the hernia after effects this year. But his two seasons were a tale of different stories in terms of puck luck for a lack of better term. He shot a 11.2% his rookie year. Which is pretty high for a defensemen. Karlsson for example usually averages in the neighborhood of 7%. He shot 3.5% this season.

 

[MSSLYNX]

I have not been on the HF Flyers board for a few days so apologies if any of this has been brought up. But one point on the recent discussion, if Andy Delmore could have learned some defensive skills he might be in the HOF. Another point that is probably pure coincidence but Ghost has played his best when Streit was not in the lineup. He came up when Streit was injured and played well. His play (in my opinion) dropped off a little at the end of his rookie year when Streit returned from IR. And his play improved (again maybe coincidentally) after Streit was traded

Undrafted Andy so maybe scouts all agreed he did not have a shot at learning the overall game to NHL standards.

11th OA Sam did not impress scouts with offense.

If Chara 3rd rounder (and others) went from big stay at home guy to top 4 guy, thats what i'm targeting in 2-4 yrs.

 

[FlyTimmo]

I truly understand how Ottawa fans must feel with all the delusional posters claiming Karlsson was terrible defensively just because the guy scored 70 points a year. Too many idiots on the main board think that ghost is a liability defensively.

 

[Lindberg]

Actually it's the opposite.

I'm confused. Are you saying it is easier to learn offensive skills over defensively skills? The points you are making seem to not have much to do with my original post.

On average defense is more about picking your spots, taking a hit when needs be, active stick work and sound positioning. I would believe this is cognitively easier to learn than offensive skills.

 

[deadhead]

Except we see a lot of skilled offensive people who never learn to play defense, while defensively skilled players like Kimmo learn to become offensive players. While it may be easier to cognitively play defense, it requires commitment, so there's a character/coachability issue that's just as important. And offensive skills can be improved with repetition, players improve their skating, their shooting, etc. And that's work ethic.

A motivated high work ethic player is more likely to develop offensive skills than a prima donna offensively skilled player is ever likely to learn how to play good defense.

Or why when scouting prospects, character is as important as skills, because character determines who will take their skill package and raise their play to the next level (and yes, there is a minimum level of skill required, Rinaldo was never going to develop basic offensive skills).

 

[Appleyard]

Tbf to Kimmo he was a fantastic offensive player at junior levels (u18, u20) and then was one of the best ~5-6 offensive defensemen in Liiga by the time he was 20-21 years old.

And then in his 2nd NHL season he paced for 53 points in the middle of the dead puck era on an expansion team. He was 24 at that point.