Speculation: Shattenkirk

[Captain Creampuff]

Let's cut to the chase, Shattenkirk is forcing a trade to the Rangers who will lock him up. It'll be something like Shattenkirk/Berglund/+ for Nash (retained?, haven't run the numbers)/Hayes.

I honestly won't be surprised.

 

[KirkOut]

Maybe they don't want to see a Lucic situation happen.

St.L fans want to assume that a deal between Shatty and had acquiring team will happen so that you can justify a better return that helps your team now.

You don't want D.
You don't want wingers.
You want a C who can step in and be a #1 C. Not a lot of teams have 2 of those so they can give one away. But I guess Bo's and NYR do.

But unless teams are allowed to talk to Shatty's agent, the offers will be futures...just like the Lucic deal.

You think the GM of the Rangers is worried that he wouldn't be able to re-sign Shattenkirk if he traded for him? It isn't similar to the Lucic situation in that sense

 

[Tripod]

You think the GM of the Rangers is worried that he wouldn't be able to re-sign Shattenkirk if he traded for him? It isn't similar to the Lucic situation in that sense

Worried that he can sign him to a fair deal? Yes. Anyone can overpay.

And once that GM makes that trade, ALL the power goes to the players agent because they know you don't want a Lucic situation.

 

[kimzey59]

Maybe they don't want to see a Lucic situation happen.

St.L fans want to assume that a deal between Shatty and had acquiring team will happen so that you can justify a better return that helps your team now.

You don't want D.
You don't want wingers.
You want a C who can step in and be a #1 C. Not a lot of teams have 2 of those so they can give one away. But I guess Bo's and NYR do.

But unless teams are allowed to talk to Shatty's agent, the offers will be futures...just like the Lucic deal.

And we're fine taking a Prospect as one of the centerpieces of a deal(good prospect and 1st is fair value).
But don't offer us somebody who projects to be a 2nd liner at best and try to sell us on him being that piece. I'm not saying we expect a Strome or Nylander, but a guy like John Quenneville just doesn't cut it. It has to be somebody with real offensive upside and that kind of prospect is not what we're being offered.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Some people put too much emphasis on position. The truth is, every forward on the Blues roster not named Tarasenko or Reaves is, in reality, a utility forward--you can plug them in anywhere on the roster and they'll perform fine, chemistry issues notwithstanding.

So, when gauging the Blues' needs, it's not a simple matter of determining what positions they are weak in--it's a matter of identifying skill sets, abilities, characteristics, etc., that will help them ice a more balanced roster.

As the team is currently configured, the Blues' biggest areas of weakness are:

-Speed--someone to lead the forecheck, break open plays, and keep opposing defenses honest. Overall lack of team speed has been a glaring problem Hitch has been harping on for years, but you can only squeeze so much lemon juice out of a lemon.

-Size--Blues finally addressed that on defense with the emergence of Parayko and Edmundson--which was sheer luck. Blues right now no longer have the personnel to play a "heavy" game--and unless they mitigate that by adding more speed and skill, it will be a problem. Promoting Jaskin, who hasn't shown that he can use his size effectively at the NHL level, isn't going to help.

-Grit--With Backes and Brouwer gone, we need someone with big brass ones capable of parking in the crease and deflecting shots. Right now, Ryan Reaves is the only guy on the roster who fits the bill, and that doesn't inspire much confidence. Also, if other teams take liberties with our young skilled players, who is going to step up to defend their teammates? Like it or not, that stuff does happen. We don't want a guy like Fabbri or Schwartz having to moonlight as Billy Jack--they deserve to have at least one teammate in the top-6 rotation who can step up when necessary.

-Leadership. Like him or not, Stastny is not a leader. I don't see Steen as being much of a leader, either--he only has a year on his contract, and he's a sulky, introverted kind of guy who just isn't ideal for the role--though he certainly leads by example through his work ethic and admirable consistency. Tarasenko just isn't ready. Pietrangelo will almost certainly be the next captain, but he needs more veterans to help shoulder the burden.

Playmaking--And of course, like any team, they can always use an upgrade on playmaking, "finishing" (i.e., goal scoring), and such. While players can swap around the lineup, you still need to have a pivot who can make plays, win faceoffs and be responsible in all zones.

-Trading Shattenkirk for Kreider would address size and speed.
-Trading Shattenkirk for Bjugstad would address size and grit.
-Trading Shattenkirk + Lehtera for Stepan would address playmaking and leadership.
-Trading Berglund for Hartnell would address grit and leadership.

Certainly there are other options. And there are solid arguments against trading or trading for any of these players. I'm just suggesting these are the areas the Blues are most likely looking at, and I'm sure they are exploring ways to address them within the salary cap constraints they have.

Good write up.. well thought out and written. I'd love to see St Louis get Kreider in a deal for Shattenkirk. I think his game would help the Blues huge

 

[wintersej]

And Yandle brought back a mid-1st round pick(20th overall in 2016), Anthony Duclair(an NHL ready, high end forward prospect who has developed into a 20 goal scorer) and a low 2nd round pick.

Show me an offer anywhere close to that and we'll consider it.
Trying to pluck Shattenkirk from us with Long Range prospects and low-end 1st's isn't going to work either.

The value has to be there or it makes more sense for us to just rent him to ourselves.
And that value starts with the NHL ready prospect.

Heinen + 1st + Bjork

I suspect that STL and Boston fans won't like that. Boston fans because many view Heinen as the best prospect in the system and are penciling him on Bergeron's RW this season, and STL fans because they have not heard of either prospect.

 

[Brendonhayden]

Maybe they don't want to see a Lucic situation happen.

St.L fans want to assume that a deal between Shatty and had acquiring team will happen so that you can justify a better return that helps your team now.

You don't want D.
You don't want wingers.
You want a C who can step in and be a #1 C. Not a lot of teams have 2 of those so they can give one away. But I guess Bo's and NYR do.

But unless teams are allowed to talk to Shatty's agent, the offers will be futures...just like the Lucic deal.

Except for the fact that Lucic was seen as a rental in la but they liked him enough to want to resign him but they had no cap space and we want an upgrade over lethera or a good rw we are set on lw and defence. All of the teams we are discussing have a lot of cap space and will probably know if shatty will sign when a deal is in place. I think spooner and a first for shatty is a good deal obviously one of the teams Gms don't think that way.

 

[JoeIsAStud]

Heinen + 1st + Bjork

I suspect that STL and Boston fans won't like that. Boston fans because many view Heinen as the best prospect in the system and are penciling him on Bergeron's RW this season, and STL fans because they have not heard of either prospect.

Yes Boston fans won't like that. Massive overpayment for a rental.

Arguable top prospect in the system, expected to compete for a top line spot as a rookie.

Bjork is one of the best players in college hockey, and projects to be a super 3rd line player at the NHL level.

And then a middle or higher first round pick.

Personally I am not a big Shattenkirk guy. I think he helps Boston, but I believe he is a middle pairing guy who needs a strong defensive partner, and a power play specialist on offense. If you unload that type of talent to trade for him you are forced to give him the 7/49 (or more) deal he wants to resign him. And I just don't see him as a guy I want to build around

 

[bluetuned]

One thing to remember is that the Blues supposedly have been willing to let Shattenkirk's agent talk to other teams about an extension if there was a potential trade in place.

It's why nothing happened between the Blues and Oilers. Shattenkirk wasn't interested in extending there.

Most reports suggest that he IS interested in extending with teams like the Rangers or Bruins, which is why he wouldn't just be a rental there.

 

[Mad Brills*]

Shattenkirk for JVR

 

[wintersej]

One thing to remember is that the Blues supposedly have been willing to let Shattenkirk's agent talk to other teams about an extension if there was a potential trade in place.

It's why nothing happened between the Blues and Oilers. Shattenkirk wasn't interested in extending there.

Most reports suggest that he IS interested in extending with teams like the Rangers or Bruins, which is why he wouldn't just be a rental there.

Of course, but Lucic was also interested in re-signing with LA. Means crap until ink is on paper. You think Boston wouldn't be sweating bullets if they traded for Shattenkirk and then the Rangers cleared some cap space for next summer?

 

[Bluesnatic27]

Heinen + 1st + Bjork

I suspect that STL and Boston fans won't like that. Boston fans because many view Heinen as the best prospect in the system and are penciling him on Bergeron's RW this season, and STL fans because they have not heard of either prospect.

This Blues fan would love to get Heinen. He's very underrated and could become a good future top-6 player for us.

 

[JoeIsAStud]

One thing to remember is that the Blues supposedly have been willing to let Shattenkirk's agent talk to other teams about an extension if there was a potential trade in place.

It's why nothing happened between the Blues and Oilers. Shattenkirk wasn't interested in extending there.

Most reports suggest that he IS interested in extending with teams like the Rangers or Bruins, which is why he wouldn't just be a rental there.

Great, so I get to be the one who pays him 50 million over the next 7 years. Is that supposed to make me feel a bunch better

 

[kimzey59]

Heinen + 1st + Bjork

I suspect that STL and Boston fans won't like that. Boston fans because many view Heinen as the best prospect in the system and are penciling him on Bergeron's RW this season, and STL fans because they have not heard of either prospect.

Heinen + 1st is a pretty good start.
Bjork might be a bit much as the 3rd part though.
Maybe something like Ben Sexton instead?

 

[mouser]

And Yandle brought back a mid-1st round pick(20th overall in 2016), Anthony Duclair(an NHL ready, high end forward prospect who has developed into a 20 goal scorer) and a low 2nd round pick.

Show me an offer anywhere close to that and we'll consider it.
Trying to pluck Shattenkirk from us with Long Range prospects and low-end 1st's isn't going to work either.

The value has to be there or it makes more sense for us to just rent him to ourselves.
And that value starts with the NHL ready prospect.

Except Yandle was traded when the NYR got 2 playoff runs out of him. Trading for Shatty now gives you only 1. That decreases the value.

Not to mention that Arizona retained 50% on Yandle for those two playoff runs.

 

[ghdi]

The whole point of a trade to a team like NJ is that he would accept an extension after the trade was completed. It's the main reason people are even discussing it in the first place. It's obviously not because NJ has a long list of desirable pieces to offer. People aren't expecting a blockbuster, they're reminding people that a 40+ pt defensemen that carries a powerplay from the right side has immense value to certain teams and GMs. Including the one he already plays for, which is why they're not selling him off for someone's expendables.

I understand this, but at the same time, why spend anything more than expendable assets for a guy who is going to be available to the highest bidder in less than a year? Expendables aren't junk either. They're assets that can be given with a low risk of blowback. The Blues are not going to get the return that many of their fans think they will and timing is everything. If it happened tomorrow, it'd probably be pretty decent, the longer it goes, the less chance of that nice return happening is.

The names that are being tossed around by some in this thread are pipe dream level names. Florida will not give up Bjugstad for Shattenkirk when they've invested $17M per in 3 defensemen this offseason alone and have just $3M in cap space currently. That's beyond the pale of rational.

Lets use NJD, NYR, and BOS as the three major possibilities.

NYR just let Yandle go because they can't afford him. So they're going to give up one of their tangible real assets (Kreider) for a guy that will potentially put them in the exact same situation that they were left with Yandle? They're not going to risk that unless they're able to get out from under some of their albatross contracts. Now if they can move Nash, then its a different story but they're almost certainly retaining whereever they move him. They're not going to trade for Shattenkirk anytime soon. Gorton would be crucified if they were unable to clear the space + Kreider and Hayes are due raises immediately and they've got Lindberg, Fast, and McIlrath due next year with $8M right now and no significant financial subtractions in sight and every team in the league knows it. Who's going to do the Rangers a favor by taking on Nash's awful contract without taking Gorton to town in doing so?

Boston makes sense, but they're not set up the best financially going forward espc with Marchand (as well as Spooner and Pastrnak) also due a raise.

New Jersey makes the most sense financially, but we're not in a position to give up one of our true blue chip prospects (Zacha/McLeod) for Shattenkirk. First round pick? Yea, as stated by another poster, a futures package around a 1st and a young player or prospect not named Zacha or McLeod is a swallowable offer. Not chopped liver.

I personally don't even want to trade for Shattenkirk right now. The cost is not in our best interest and Id much rather wait and toss you guys a 3rd or a 4th when the negotiation window opens next summer.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

Not to mention that Arizona retained 50% on Yandle for those two playoff runs.

True, but Shatty is still only 4.25M for this year. Blues fans need to remember that Yandle was a two-year trade.

 

[JoeIsAStud]

This Blues fan would love to get Heinen. He's very underrated and could become a good future top-6 player for us.

Who wouldn't want a guy on year one of his entry level, who seems like he is ticketed to be a first line wing in boston this year. I just can't believe Boston would consider dealing him.

 

[ashnathan]

Heinen + 1st + Bjork

I suspect that STL and Boston fans won't like that. Boston fans because many view Heinen as the best prospect in the system and are penciling him on Bergeron's RW this season, and STL fans because they have not heard of either prospect.

Nooooooooooope. Not even close. Id rather keep all of that everyday of the week and twice on Sundays than give it up for Shattenkirk. He's a good player, but he isn't worth a farm. Boston wouldn't trade Heinen anyway, weak AF on RW. It would be a 1st + prospect that isn't arguably our best, for one year of Shattenkirk with no guarantees of him re-signing.

 

[ashnathan]

Heinen + 1st is a pretty good start.
Bjork might be a bit much as the 3rd part though.
Maybe something like Ben Sexton instead?

Sexton's UFA.

 

[McSuper]

It's a damn shame that he likely wouldn't re-sign in Edmonton as he'd be a solid fit on our 2nd pairing.

Yeah . He would make our D above average

Klefbom Shattenkirk
Sekera Larsson
Davidson Fayne
Oesterle


I think Larsson is better then Klefbom right now but I think the pairs I listed balances out the D better .

If St Louis was will too take futures I would still be willing to make an offer

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Yeah . He would make our D above average

Klefbom Shattenkirk
Sekera Larsson
Davidson Fayne
Oesterle


I think Larsson is better then Klefbom right now but I think the pairs I listed balances out the D better .

If St Louis was will too take futures I would still be willing to make an offer

Oils would be damn scary if Shattenkirk went there and stayed long term.. I'd actually be quite leary trading him to edmonton cause since they acquired Larsson, Shatty could be the last piece of the puzzle for a very long time of dominance in edmonton haha... would most likely come back to haunt the Blues!

 

[BlueDream]

Truthfully, Edmonton would be a much better destination for Shattenkirk now that they have Larsson. Larsson can handle most of the defensive responsibility on the right side. And Shattenkirk can be played accordingly and given much more offensive zone starts. He wouldn't have to be the #1 guy, really, and that's the position where he will succeed most.

It's a shame that he's still unlikely to have changed his mind.

 

[snipes]

Truthfully, Edmonton would be a much better destination for Shattenkirk now that they have Larsson. Larsson can handle most of the defensive responsibility on the right side. And Shattenkirk can be played accordingly and given much more offensive zone starts. He wouldn't have to be the #1 guy, really, and that's the position where he will succeed most.

It's a shame that he's still unlikely to have changed his mind.

Yeah it's too bad. From a "pure hockey trade" perspective, Edmonton makes lots of sense. The Oilers also have assets at forward that would likely intrigue the Blues and their needs.

However, without an extension in place/desire to play in EDM, it makes any talk a non-starter.

 

[MissouriMook]

Maybe they don't want to see a Lucic situation happen.

St.L fans want to assume that a deal between Shatty and had acquiring team will happen so that you can justify a better return that helps your team now.

You don't want D.
You don't want wingers.
You want a C who can step in and be a #1 C. Not a lot of teams have 2 of those so they can give one away. But I guess Bo's and NYR do.

But unless teams are allowed to talk to Shatty's agent, the offers will be futures...just like the Lucic deal.

The bolded is exactly the point. If you've been paying attention, the Blues GM has been clear that he is looking for a return based on an extension in place with the acquiring team. He is not attempting to trade one year of the player. Rather, he is looking for a suitor that wants to extend his contract as part of the deal, thus trading multiple years of the player rather than a rental, to maximize the value.