Speculation: Sharks 2015-2016 Roster Talk: Rumors, Roster, Proposals. Part III ‎

[do0glas]

Tell me mr brilliant one. What contender can take on a near 6 million of cap space?

Or are you still one of the clueless ones that think marleau will accept a trade any where in the league just to make san jose happy?

What if I told you that sometimes teams trade current roster players in the offseason? Contracts expire. Players go UFA.

So saying he will not be traded for futures is clueless.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

What contemder can take on near 6 million i cap space? Marleau has a no move clause. He is not going to go to a team that can easily take on his cap hit. He will be going to a team that is a contender for the cup and if you actually look at the contenders and there cap space. It is not happening.

There are 16 'contenders' every year. Are you seriously telling me that all of them are going to have cap issues? Also, if we retain on Patty (lets say 33%), that would be a lot more manageable (4M). We get an RFA back between 2-3 M and other picks/prospects. Makes the trade pretty manageable.

Another option would be us taking a cap dump back but DW has not done that so far. So I see us retaining on Patty as more of a likely choice.

The main issue with trading Patty is not us retaining or finding a team that wants him and making it work financially. The main issue with trading Patty is that he has an NTC and he will not waive it for every 'contending' team.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Literally all I said is he should go in hard. Just like you said you be "in on the Hamilton proposal"

But fine. I'd try Meier + 1st for hall. Play the character card and see where I get. At the very least it's starting the convo.

And they tried to move rnh for a top dman. Didn't work. They will get a lot less value out of these guys than they want. But whatever.

As for marleau, who knows what teams in the offseason do. Rosters are rarely static in the summer and arguing based off of the present is short sighted.

And lol at straw man. I just gave you comparable situations. Toxic players moved for pennies on the dollar. Especially kessel and seguin. At least the perception. You want to call it a straw man be my guest but you're wrong.

And I was following up with the question that you still have yet to answer. Why exactly would Edmonton be interested in Meier and a 2017 1st for Hall? Why are you assuming that Taylor Hall is toxic and will be sold for pennies on the dollar? Even if he was toxic, you can't really think that that's the best deal that Edmonton could get for him, right? Where exactly do you get that they tried and failed to trade RNH for a top d-man?

As for Marleau, it's really simple. The argument isn't about basing it off the present. It's about basing it off the money involved and the limited options involved. The Ducks are a budget team and the other two are cap teams. Those teams aren't likely to add a high-dollar player without returning at least most of those dollars. It's honestly naïve to believe in the hope that the Sharks could just dump Marleau for just futures and take little to no cap hit back. This is, of course, assuming that any of this was true to begin with.

As for the straw man, that's exactly what it was. You threw out the every star player is a hockey trade line as if that was my argument when it wasn't. That is the definition of a straw man. Rationalize it however you like but that's what it was and you're wrong for believing otherwise. Edmonton is simply not in a position to trade Hall for pennies on the dollar because of some toxic belief. If they move anyone of that caliber, of which they have few, they have to make the right trade to get what they need to be a better team and not extend their decade-long rebuild more than they have to.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

What if I told you that sometimes teams trade current roster players in the offseason? Contracts expire. Players go UFA.

So saying he will not be traded for futures is clueless.

Just like saying he will be traded for futures is equally clueless.

 

[Barrie22]

There are 16 'contenders' every year. Are you seriously telling me that all of them are going to have cap issues? Also, if we retain on Patty (lets say 33%), that would be a lot more manageable (4M). We get an RFA back between 2-3 M and other picks/prospects. Makes the trade pretty manageable.

Another option would be us taking a cap dump back but DW has not done that so far. So I see us retaining on Patty as more of a likely choice.

The main issue with trading Patty is not us retaining or finding a team that wants him and making it work financially. The main issue with trading Patty is that he has an NTC and he will not waive it for every 'contending' team.

There are not 16 contenders every year. If that was so then the sharks would be a contender.

 

[do0glas]

And I was following up with the question that you still have yet to answer. Why exactly would Edmonton be interested in Meier and a 2017 1st for Hall? Why are you assuming that Taylor Hall is toxic and will be sold for pennies on the dollar? Even if he was toxic, you can't really think that that's the best deal that Edmonton could get for him, right? Where exactly do you get that they tried and failed to trade RNH for a top d-man?

As for Marleau, it's really simple. The argument isn't about basing it off the present. It's about basing it off the money involved and the limited options involved. The Ducks are a budget team and the other two are cap teams. Those teams aren't likely to add a high-dollar player without returning at least most of those dollars. It's honestly naïve to believe in the hope that the Sharks could just dump Marleau for just futures and take little to no cap hit back. This is, of course, assuming that any of this was true to begin with.

As for the straw man, that's exactly what it was. You threw out the every star player is a hockey trade line as if that was my argument when it wasn't. That is the definition of a straw man. Rationalize it however you like but that's what it was and you're wrong for believing otherwise. Edmonton is simply not in a position to trade Hall for pennies on the dollar because of some toxic belief. If they move anyone of that caliber, of which they have few, they have to make the right trade to get what they need to be a better team and not extend their decade-long rebuild more than they have to.

During the jphansen trade Seth jones. Oilers reportedly tried to move rnh for him.

Having to make the right trade versus actually making the right trade are two different things. Teams desperate for a culture change or when a coach comes out calling out his players can lower value.

And I took the wrong implication from your statement but damn you're quick to start fights on this board.

As for marleau...if you want to believe his reported list now when before you were adamant that it was made up well...

 

[Pinkfloyd]

There are 16 'contenders' every year. Are you seriously telling me that all of them are going to have cap issues? Also, if we retain on Patty (lets say 33%), that would be a lot more manageable (4M). We get an RFA back between 2-3 M and other picks/prospects. Makes the trade pretty manageable.

Another option would be us taking a cap dump back but DW has not done that so far. So I see us retaining on Patty as more of a likely choice.

The main issue with trading Patty is not us retaining or finding a team that wants him and making it work financially. The main issue with trading Patty is that he has an NTC and he will not waive it for every 'contending' team.

I don't think they will do that unless they absolutely have to. As in, only if Marleau really needs to get the hell out of here which I highly doubt. This team that spends to the cap doesn't need another 2.2 million dollars of dead space. Even if they just moved him and replaced him with Goldobin, chances are they would have to use the difference to find improvements elsewhere to make up for that huge loss. That's going to be very difficult to pull off and the team will suffer because of it.

 

[do0glas]

Just so someone doesn't waste their time. I've updated my ignore list. Honestly can't take only talking to one poster on this board. Take it how you want.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

During the jphansen trade Seth jones. Oilers reportedly tried to move rnh for him.

Having to make the right trade versus actually making the right trade are two different things. Teams desperate for a culture change or when a coach comes out calling out his players can lower value.

And I took the wrong implication from your statement but damn you're quick to start fights on this board.

As for marleau...if you want to believe his reported list now when before you were adamant that it was made up well...

So because they didn't get Jones, that means they can't get it done later? That seems awfully presumptuous.

Coach calling out players doesn't necessarily mean that he was calling out Hall nor does it mean that trading Hall accomplishes the culture change they're looking for. Even with the Oilers needing a culture change, it doesn't mean every asset takes a negative hit. Hall, if made available, is an open market asset. There will be a substantial bidding war for his services. Something the Sharks are not likely equipped to win.

Your starting fights line is a good one. It's as if you believe this is one. lol I asked a question that you answered with snarkiness and I responded in kind.

Just because I believe that the list is made up doesn't mean I can't answer hypotheticals about it. I don't see what your issue is on that one.

 

[bigwillie]

They are toxic.

This is something I wholeheartedly disagree with. I think any team that plucks one of the Oiler's young guns away from them on the cheap is going to get a monster steal.

The way I see it, the reason Hall, RNH, Yak, etc. are considered "toxic" is not because of their individual personalities, but rather because of the situation they have been pushed into. Not even Jesus Toews himself would be able to keep his composure and valiantly lead the team coming into that circus as a young player.

I do believe that once any of those guys are traded and go to an actual NHL team, with real goalies and defenseman and whatnot, they're going to be rejuvenated. Just like Polak said after getting traded from the tanking Leafs, it's nice to play games that actually mean something. I think you put a guy like Hall on the Sharks and give him a chance to play postseason hockey with a few quality veterans and a roster that actual features NHL talent top to bottom, and he's going to flourish. I think they are all simply in an organization-induced funk right now, and that will change with a change of scenery.

If I was DW, I'd target, and target hard, any of Hall, Nugent-Hopkins, Yakupov. I think Nurse and Draisaitl would be huge pickups too, and would probably be my two main choices, but I think they're fresh enough to where Edmonton may hang onto them as part of their second rebuild. The first three I mentioned however, are probably headed out the door as part of the failed rebuild, and I see all three finding a massive second wind elsewhere.

 

[do0glas]

This is something I wholeheartedly disagree with. I think any team that plucks one of the Oiler's young guns away from them on the cheap is going to get a monster steal.

The way I see it, the reason Hall, RNH, Yak, etc. are considered "toxic" is not because of their individual personalities, but rather because of the situation they have been pushed into. Not even Jesus Toews himself would be able to keep his composure and valiantly lead the team coming into that circus as a young player.

I do believe that once any of those guys are traded and go to an actual NHL team, with real goalies and defenseman and whatnot, they're going to be rejuvenated. Just like Polak said after getting traded from the tanking Leafs, it's nice to play games that actually mean something. I think you put a guy like Hall on the Sharks and give him a chance to play postseason hockey with a few quality veterans and a roster that actual features NHL talent top to bottom, and he's going to flourish. I think they are all simply in an organization-induced funk right now, and that will change with a change of scenery.

If I was DW, I'd target, and target hard, any of Hall, Nugent-Hopkins, Yakupov. I think Nurse and Draisaitl would be huge pickups too, and would probably be my two main choices, but I think they're fresh enough to where Edmonton may hang onto them as part of their second rebuild. The first three I mentioned however, are probably headed out the door as part of the failed rebuild, and I see all three finding a massive second wind elsewhere.

I'm with you man. You gotta make the calls. Be in on a trade until the end. Maybe we don't have the pieces but maybe they are desperate. Lots of ifs. Worth pursuing

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I don't think they will do that unless they absolutely have to. As in, only if Marleau really needs to get the hell out of here which I highly doubt. This team that spends to the cap doesn't need another 2.2 million dollars of dead space. Even if they just moved him and replaced him with Goldobin, chances are they would have to use the difference to find improvements elsewhere to make up for that huge loss. That's going to be very difficult to pull off and the team will suffer because of it.

I am not saying the first choice is to retain on Marleau. I am saying that it is an option that we have and DW has shown that he is ok with doing that. Moving a player like Patty who is still producing, although he has declined over the last 2 years, is still not going to be made up by Goldobin next year. We will need to make some other moves as well. I think what we get back from trading Marleau and/or making some moves in the off-season can definitely replace Marleau's production.

Truth is I see Marleau gone because I just don't think he is going to be extended here and moving him during a TDL is a lot harder than moving him in the off-season. If he is here at the start of this season, I expect him to just walk (and not re-signed) at the end of the 2016-17 season. Only way he is still here beyond that is if he takes a major salary cut.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

This is something I wholeheartedly disagree with. I think any team that plucks one of the Oiler's young guns away from them on the cheap is going to get a monster steal.

The way I see it, the reason Hall, RNH, Yak, etc. are considered "toxic" is not because of their individual personalities, but rather because of the situation they have been pushed into. Not even Jesus Toews himself would be able to keep his composure and valiantly lead the team coming into that circus as a young player.

I do believe that once any of those guys are traded and go to an actual NHL team, with real goalies and defenseman and whatnot, they're going to be rejuvenated. Just like Polak said after getting traded from the tanking Leafs, it's nice to play games that actually mean something. I think you put a guy like Hall on the Sharks and give him a chance to play postseason hockey with a few quality veterans and a roster that actual features NHL talent top to bottom, and he's going to flourish. I think they are all simply in an organization-induced funk right now, and that will change with a change of scenery.

If I was DW, I'd target, and target hard, any of Hall, Nugent-Hopkins, Yakupov. I think Nurse and Draisaitl would be huge pickups too, and would probably be my two main choices, but I think they're fresh enough to where Edmonton may hang onto them as part of their second rebuild. The first three I mentioned however, are probably headed out the door as part of the failed rebuild, and I see all three finding a massive second wind elsewhere.

I agree that a lot of the players, including the ones that may even be labeled as toxic, would flourish elsewhere...well except for Schultz. If I'm Edmonton, I'm moving Schultz to anyone that takes him, Yakupov, and Eberle. Now they probably won't get a #1 d-man out of those guys but if I had to guess which players are the biggest issues, it'd be those three over Hall, RNH, or anyone else. But I can understand putting any of those guys up if the right deal comes up.

 

[do0glas]

I am not saying the first choice is to retain on Marleau. I am saying that it is an option that we have and DW has shown that he is ok with doing that. Moving a player like Patty who is still producing, although he has declined over the last 2 years, is still not going to be made up by Goldobin next year. We will need to make some other moves as well. I think what we get back from trading Marleau and/or making some moves in the off-season can definitely replace Marleau's production.

Truth is I see Marleau gone because I just don't think he is going to be extended here and moving him during a TDL is a lot harder than moving him in the off-season. If he is here at the start of this season, I expect him to just walk (and not re-signed) at the end of the 2016-17 season. Only way he is still here beyond that is if he takes a major salary cut.

I expect he gets traded this summer or walks as well. We may take some salary back in a trade or we may not. Lot of teams out there to consider and that marleau may consider more as time goes on.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I am not saying the first choice is to retain on Marleau. I am saying that it is an option that we have and DW has shown that he is ok with doing that. Moving a player like Patty who is still producing, although he has declined over the last 2 years, is still not going to be made up by Goldobin next year. We will need to make some other moves as well. I think what we get back from trading Marleau and/or making some moves in the off-season can definitely replace Marleau's production.

Truth is I see Marleau gone because I just don't think he is not going to be extended here and moving him during a TDL is a lot harder than moving him in the off-season. If he is here at the start of this season, I expect him to just walk (and not re-signed) at the end of the 2016-17 season unless he takes a major salary cut.

I agree moving Patty won't be made up with just Goldobin. There's a lot of things he does that is going to be hard to replace. I think he's replaceable on special teams at this point with Hertl on the PP and we have plenty of good PK'ers right now. I think they need to revert the PK system though. But the even strength time is going to be awfully hard to replace. His production level may be replaceable but will the defensive side be? If they finally put Couture back up on the 2nd line, you're losing a lot more production than what he's shown this year and you're probably losing top-line production because they will see more difficult competition as a result.

I don't know about a contract extension. I don't see any rift really between him and the team. He already took a marginal paycut to stay with the team last time and I don't see why he wouldn't do it again. We'll see but I don't see him with one foot out the door at this point.