GDT: Sept 17th Preseason vs Chicago 8pm

[InjuredChoker]

Any video on the hit? I missed it.

Think he will get suspension?

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=445216

 

[EbonyRaptor]

The idea of a Blackhawks’ fan advising that the Wings should willingly submit to temporary mediocrity for the sake of future improvement doesn't sit well with me.

I apologize if I came across as a know-it-all or offering advice when not asked. My post was more to agree with what others have posted. As a Hawk fan I've had a grudging respect for the Wings organization for many years. Furthermore, I have found Wings fans on this message board and others to be some of the best in terms of less hyperbole and more realistic assessments of their own team and other teams - it's why I read the Detroit site frequently.

Also, to clarify my post a little bit - my position is the Wings will be a better team by the end of the season by playing Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan and even a Jarnkrok, then it will be by playing Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Cleary, but by playing the younger players perhaps the Wings don't win as many games early in the season while the younger players are finding their niche. I didn't suggest to willingly submit to temporary mediocrity unless by "temporary" you mean part of one season. Rather I would suggest that by not integrating the young players into the lineup in place of the aforementioned old timers, it puts the Wings on a course of mediocrity for a longer period than a partial season.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I apologize if I came across as a know-it-all or offering advice when not asked. My post was more to agree with what others have posted. As a Hawk fan I've had a grudging respect for the Wings organization for many years. Furthermore, I have found Wings fans on this message board and others to be some of the best in terms of less hyperbole and more realistic assessments of their own team and other teams - it's why I read the Detroit site frequently.

Also, to clarify my post a little bit - my position is the Wings will be a better team by the end of the season by playing Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan and even a Jarnkrok, then it will be by playing Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Cleary, but by playing the younger players perhaps the Wings don't win as many games early in the season while the younger players are finding their niche. I didn't suggest to willingly submit to temporary mediocrity unless by "temporary" you mean part of one season. Rather I would suggest that by not integrating the young players into the lineup in place of the aforementioned old timers, it puts the Wings on a course of mediocrity for a longer period than a partial season.

Reading your board, most of the fans seem to think exact opposite of Wings fans

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I apologize if I came across as a know-it-all or offering advice when not asked. My post was more to agree with what others have posted. As a Hawk fan I've had a grudging respect for the Wings organization for many years. Furthermore, I have found Wings fans on this message board and others to be some of the best in terms of less hyperbole and more realistic assessments of their own team and other teams - it's why I read the Detroit site frequently.

Also, to clarify my post a little bit - my position is the Wings will be a better team by the end of the season by playing Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan and even a Jarnkrok, then it will be by playing Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Cleary, but by playing the younger players perhaps the Wings don't win as many games early in the season while the younger players are finding their niche. I didn't suggest to willingly submit to temporary mediocrity unless by "temporary" you mean part of one season. Rather I would suggest that by not integrating the young players into the lineup in place of the aforementioned old timers, it puts the Wings on a course of mediocrity for a longer period than a partial season.

Ignore the broken record, Holland apologists. The 2013 banner hangs at the United Center, not in the Joe. Like others, I like the willingness of the Hawks to play their younger guys. They are an attractive free-agent destination and could have loaded up on mediocre vets like the Wings do, but they didn't. If nothing else, they show that there is more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to putting together a contender.

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

Ebonyraptor, you need not apologize. You came across as a reasonable person and advocated nothing different than what many Wings' fans advocate. I just have a different opinion and was motivated to express it thanks to your participation. The Hawks are in a different position than the Red Wings, for the moment a better position, and I don't think the Wings have much to gain by trying to emulate what the Hawks have done. Their best players are older, their best prospects were not nearly so NHL ready last year as Shaw, Leddy, Saad, Bickell. In a couple of years I think the situation will be different. The Wings are actually going to be in pretty good shape because of the depth and quality of their prospects and a little patience right now will only help the cause.

 

[Flowah]

Debating trivial word use is funny on message forum, it kinda makes me feel special and important that someone would spend so much time dissecting the use of a word, I'm not really this important in real life...

No one is dissecting anything. You claimed not to use the word. I simply pointed out that you did. Now you're backpedaling and saying "I meant during the playoffs!"

Except you didn't use the word playoffs in the entire post that I quoted. And the guy you were replying to didn't use the word either. If you meant playoffs, maybe you should have said the word at some point, eh?

I also notice you completely dodged finding anyone who claimed Nyquist was a savior. (because no one said it and you just made it up)

I've followed the last few pages of this thread and as a Hawks fan I can tell you that I was more worried about Nyquist scoring on us than anyone else (other than Dats and Z).

Really? You weren't more scared of "Playoff Warrior" Cleary? I heard he put up more points than Datsyuk. What an all-star. I'll take him over Pav any day.

 

[EbonyRaptor]

Ebonyraptor, you need not apologize. You came across as a reasonable person and advocated nothing different than what many Wings' fans advocate. I just have a different opinion and was motivated to express it thanks to your participation. The Hawks are in a different position than the Red Wings, for the moment a better position, and I don't think the Wings have much to gain by trying to emulate what the Hawks have done. Their best players are older, their best prospects were not nearly so NHL ready last year as Shaw, Leddy, Saad, Bickell. In a couple of years I think the situation will be different. The Wings are actually going to be in pretty good shape because of the depth and quality of their prospects and a little patience right now will only help the cause.

Thanks. I understand your view and admit that for the most part it has been the tried and true method for many many years. But I also think things are changing a bit too in terms of players being ready at a younger age and the youth movement is being seen across the league - there are more and more 18, 19, and 20 year olds breaking in and staying in the NHL than there were years ago. I offer that only as anecdotal evidence because I don't have stats to back that up - but it sure seems like it anyway.

I'll use Marcus Kruger as an example. He was a 5th round pick in 2009, played 2 more years in Sweden, then came over and started for the Hawks in 2011/12 as a 21 year old. He's not a great player and maybe he would have developed his offensive game more if he had played another year or two in the minors, but he did OK his first season as the 4th line center and got better his second season where he became the first line PKer. So far in training camp this year he looks even better because he got stronger and looks to be better along the boards and holding on to the puck. The point is that Kruger came in as an unheralded 5th rounder and served a need and still has continued to get better. Having him start his NHL career hepled the Hawks and didn't hurt him.

I also understand and agree that each situation is different, both from a player perspective and a team perspective - there's no cookie cutter method that works everywhere.

So that's my 2 cents - although it's probably more like 2 bits

 

[HTT3*]

No one is dissecting anything. You claimed not to use the word. I simply pointed out that you did. Now you're backpedaling and saying "I meant during the playoffs!"

Except you didn't use the word playoffs in the entire post that I quoted. And the guy you were replying to didn't use the word either. If you meant playoffs, maybe you should have said the word at some point, eh?

I also notice you completely dodged finding anyone who claimed Nyquist was a savior. (because no one said it and you just made it up)

Wow, you are totally dissecting a sentence in a post to make a strawman point/argument.

Nobody said anything about the playoffs, huh? Well re-read the post again. Did Cleary score more points during the regular season? No. He was the warrior who scored more points in the playoffs. I would have thought that'd go without saying???? Guess not.

"Right now Cleary is better than Nyquist. No doubt Nyquist did very well last season, but Cleary was the warrior who scored more points."

Did I really need to point this out and decipher it to you as if it's the mysterious formula to cure cancer and save mankind?

C'mon man, you're smarter than this.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

The idea of a Blackhawks’ fan advising that the Wings should willingly submit to temporary mediocrity for the sake of future

How about Red Wings fans advising us to submit to mediocrity for the sake of loyalty to veterans?

The issue of when to give young players a roster spot is obviously a hot topic. It always has been. I've been following the Red Wings for more than half a century, and through all the draft successes and failures and player development plans, the one thing that has stood out as the biggest mistake a team can make (other than to have crappy drafts for about five years) is to grant a young player too much NHL ice time before he is ready. It's a mistake for the player and it's a mistake for his NHL teammates. There is no guarantee the player will develop and, if you’re wrong, the impact is felt for much more than one season. It affects the player’s value, in your eyes and those of other teams in the league, it affects teammates' performance, it puts pressure on the team to do something to compensate for the mistake, it unnecessarily increases payroll, it may cost a coach his job. We can debate whether or not a young player who fails and becomes a lost draft pick might have succeeded if more time had been spent in Junior or the Minors, but there is no debate about players who never made it because they spent too long in the Minors. If they’re good enough (in all respects: mentally, physically and emotionally), and healthy enough, they’ll make it. Playing them too soon invites all sort of negative consequences and very rarely any positive consequences.

Playing them too late -- or not in a position where they can succeed -- or not at all -- can be far worse for a player's development.

Of course, the evaluation of a player’s preparedness for the top level is a subjective art, not a science.

And so, too, is knowing when a player is no longer as valuable.
Identifying your core -- and moving players in and out of that core -- is what being a GM in the salary cap era is all about

In my view the Wings played last year's development process perfectly. There was no way that team was going to make the playoffs without a full commitment to defensive hockey, and anything less than a full push to make the playoffs would have been contrary to what every decent team tries to do. The lockout and compressed schedule last year created a unique situation. Limited training camp, reduced practice time, less time for teaching, injuries were assured. If you do not start with a roster full of players willing and capable of buying into the style required to make the playoffs in a season with little margin for error, then you are creating a losing scenario. A spot in the pressbox is not going to attract any veteran free agent, so right off the bat you are signing veteran dregs with no track record of success. Before long you are hitting the waiver wire for bottom sixers or making mistakes with other young players. Having a deep roster, including a capable guy or two in Grand Rapids, was the most sensible way to approach the compressed season. I don't really care that other teams found ways to get young players into their lineups. Team circumstances differ. Chicago, for example, had plenty of room for error. In most cases, the young players mentioned on other teams as examples of what the Wings should be doing are clearly superior prospects or have better NHL capability now than the best Detroit prospects. The Saads, Leddys, Etems, etc are just flat out better young NHL players than Tatar, Nyquist and Smith. Further to Saad and Leddy, in the playoffs they were the Hawks I was least concerned about. Great skaters, but to little effect and the rest of their game was AHL level. Bickell was a beast and guess what, he was a prospect the Hawks have shown great patience with. They didn't rush him, or had the sense to abort a couple of premature promotions, they kept sending him down, and he finally figured out how to contribute. The wait was well worth it. Perhaps the Wings rushed Abdelkader because, at least in the AHL, he was a much more productive player than Bickell. Perhaps promoting him to the NHL as a useful young grinder actually hindered his confidence with the puck and obliterated an offensive mindset that, in my most optimistic outlook, will start to reassert itself this season. It's well worth a look to start the season with him on the top line.

In my view, last year's crash course in rookies was a direct byproduct of the Wings' failed development strategy and over-reliance on veterans
Kindl should have had the training wheels come off years ago. Smith should have been a sophomore.
If our defense was more experienced we wouldn't have needed the about-face in strategy.
By the way -- expect another crash course in rookies next year.

As for the Wings top prospects, the only one I think is elite is Mrazek. He needs to start this season in the AHL, playing full time. If Howard is injured I would expect Mrazek to come up and be the starter and do a great job. I love Nyquist, but unless he develops a much better shot and an aggressive offensive mentality he'll never be the top six elite winger everyone hopes he might become. He certainly isn't right now. He's going into just his third professional season, so he still has plenty of time to learn. He gained more in my view from being part of two playoff runs than he would have by the Wings sacrificing this past season's playoff chances by dressing three midget rookies in their top nine from day one.

Your post goes off the rails here --

Once again -- we're seeing a paradigm shift from the posters who defend Holland and Babcock.
If you to the main board, Red Wings defend our team and say "size doesn't matter. It's about skill.
Then you come here and the argument becomes size being paramount.

Interesting dynamic.
I don't view Nyquist or Tatar as in the same class as Datsyuk or Zetterberg. But they've got a chance to be very good.
They already add more than dumpster dives like Samuelsson and Cleary because of their speed/intensity.

Both players have a lot of work to do. But at this stage, it can only be done in the NHL.

Tatar finally learned how to elevate his game in the proper environment.

He elevated his game in the NHL. And in the World championships.

Smith showed me nothing last year to suggest he should have been in the NHL, on a full time basis, even earlier.

A rookie year needs to happen sometime. It would have been better if Smith's rookie year was buffered by having an experienced defense with Lidstrom and Stuart -- two guys who he could have learned a lot from.

Instead, Smith had his rookie year while the defense played like its hair was on fire -- with Lashoff, Huskins, an unproven Kindl etc...

Sorry to go on a bit of rant.

That's not a rant, man.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Wow, you are totally dissecting a sentence in a post to make a strawman point/argument.

Nobody said anything about the playoffs, huh? Well re-read the post again. Did Cleary score more points during the regular season? No. He was the warrior who scored more points in the playoffs. I would have thought that'd go without saying???? Guess not.



Did I really need to point this out and decipher it to you as if it's the mysterious formula to cure cancer and save mankind?

C'mon man, you're smarter than this.

What about the year Cleary had 0 points in 5 games or 3 in 22? Where was the playoff warrior there?

 

[Flowah]

Well re-read the post again. Did Cleary score more points during the regular season? No. He was the warrior who scored more points in the playoffs. I would have thought that'd go without saying???? Guess not.

Yes actually. Cleary scored more points than Nyquist in the regular season. 2.5 times more actually. 15 vs 6.

So... again, be more clear when you want to make a point. You're really struggling here with some basics.

Kindl should have had the training wheels come off years ago. Smith should have been a sophomore.

This is a point I love. Because it forces people who are blind homers of Holland/Babcock to do some real mental gymnastics to maintain that homerism. Do they agree with Babcock who thought that Smith should have been up a year earlier? Or do they agree with Holland who kept him down by signing too many d-men to make that possible? For the people who say "just trust Holland/Babcock! They played their development 'perfectly'" this is an impossibility. Who's right?!

What about the year Cleary had 0 points in 5 games or 3 in 22? Where was the playoff warrior there?

Anyone calling Cleary a playoff warrior for last year wasn't watching the games, just reading the box scores. Just like anyone who saw the stats sheet of the Vancouver game would have thought "Wow, Abby's really coming out this year!" No. Datsyuk was just using him as a pylon.

 

[TKB]

I apoligize for not reading the whole 12 pages of reviews, but how did Ouellet look in hist first game?

I thought he looked good.

Had very quick feet on his stops and starts and was able to stay with his check (and imo the Hawks are very good at creating confusion in offensive zone).

Was poised under pressure with the puck, including a play where he took a "malachi" crunch from two Hawks behind the goal line, and while all the UC drunks where hooting and hollering they must not have noticed that Ouellett successfully held onto the puck came out the other side to initiate a good break out.

He played against good competition and was paired with Ericsson in the 3rd.

The (minor) hiccups:

Had a point shot blocked on the PP. Couldn't quite hold the blue-line on a scrum along the boards where Kane ended up with puck behind him, but mad a very nice recovery to dump puck back in the zone.

He fumbled the puck in a re-group that almost led to a break away, but again made a very nice (no panic) move to get out of trouble and got the puck up ice.

I don't want to oversell him, but he really did look good as far as I was concerned.

 

[BinCookin]

First off. Thanks to the hawks fans for coming here to engage in thoughtful discussions on our team. Most fans that do this are very nice hockey fans that hope their team beats us, but appreciate our team and how we run. So overall thanks, and your points are pretty much right on.

The main debate here is this:

What makes our team stronger?

3rd liners: Tatar and Nyquist or
3rd liners: Cleary and Samuelsson

If the answer is THIS YEAR only... then I am not sure. Both Cleary and Samuelsson can play. There is a high amount of hate for HOLLAND for making us make this choice, but they are good players.

I think we need to play Tatar and Nyquist this year for 2 reasons.

1) They are ready. They are PPG players in the AHL. They are ready for NHL time. Even if it is on the 4th line, I don't mind. But get them playing in the right league.

2) They are good enough now. Proof? - Rewatch tape of last years games with these players. Expect some rookie mistakes this year, but next year they should be better than cleary and samuelsson will be NEXT year... And if they are not.. well then we make decisions THEN.

I like all our 17 forwards.. but honestly we have too many. It would be a very weird choice to trade Tatar and keep forwards age 30+... which is exactly why I do not think this will happen

 

[HTT3*]

What about the year Cleary had 0 points in 5 games or 3 in 22? Where was the playoff warrior there?

So Cleary had 7 less points that year than 3 combined other players who's salary is over $17 million.... zOMGzzzzz someonez firezz someonezzzzz

That same year


Datsyuk 1 goal
Zetterberg 2 goal
Franzen 1 goal

Lol @ blaming Cleary when the ENTIRE team was horrible and couldn't score enough points based on their pay grade.

Posting Cleary's numbers that year is absurd when you look at the "star" players production. Wow, now I've seen it all!

Yes actually. Cleary scored more points than Nyquist in the regular season. 2.5 times more actually. 15 vs 6.

So... again, be more clear when you want to make a point. You're really struggling here with some basics.

This is a point I love. Because it forces people who are blind homers of Holland/Babcock to do some real mental gymnastics to maintain that homerism. Do they agree with Babcock who thought that Smith should have been up a year earlier? Or do they agree with Holland who kept him down by signing too many d-men to make that possible? For the people who say "just trust Holland/Babcock! They played their development 'perfectly'" this is an impossibility. Who's right?!


Anyone calling Cleary a playoff warrior for last year wasn't watching the games, just reading the box scores. Just like anyone who saw the stats sheet of the Vancouver game would have thought "Wow, Abby's really coming out this year!" No. Datsyuk was just using him as a pylon.

That scrub Abdelkader scored a hardnose dirty goal tonight... boy is that scrub luckey or what!!!1!!. What a scrubzzzzzzzz

 

[Petes2424]

Stop calling people whiners -- it looks like sour grapes, especially as you pretend Danny Cleary is any good defensively anymore.

Danny Cleary had the second worst plus/minus relative to the team last year.
In the playoffs, he was third worst.
He was fourth worst in 11-12.

If Danny Cleary was busting up and down the ice, breaking up plays and causing turnovers and finishing checks, nobody would complain about Cleary.

But he's old, slow and broken down.

Well the Wings don't seem to think so and if you go back and actually watch the past playoffs you'll see a lot of what you just described. Not sure how I sound like sour grapes. It's quite the opposite by definition. The hate by a few Internet mongers because Dan Cleary might push Tatar down the depth chart is actually pretty funny. I'll stay with what I've consistently said on the subject. If Tatar outplays Cleary, he'll play more. It's pretty simple. If he pots a few goals here and there like Brunner and doesn't play better away from the puck, which Cleary excels at, he won't. Tatar can score, but so could Slava Kozlov. He needs to do more.

Competition is a great thing. Tatar is embracing it. Maybe his supporters should follow his lead.

 

[ricky0034]

Well the Wings don't seem to think so and if you go back and actually watch the past playoffs you'll see a lot of what you just described. Not sure how I sound like sour grapes. It's quite the opposite by definition. The hate by a few Internet mongers because Dan Cleary might push Tatar down the depth chart is actually pretty funny. I'll stay with what I've consistently said on the subject. If Tatar outplays Cleary, he'll play more. It's pretty simple. If he pots a few goals here and there like Brunner and doesn't play better away from the puck, which Cleary excels at, he won't. Tatar can score, but so could Slava Kozlov. He needs to do more.

Competition is a great thing. Tatar is embracing it. Maybe his supporters should follow his lead.

you mean like last year when Tatar came up and made the Wings third line actually useful and was sent back to the minors while Cleary was useless and played all year in the top 6 with tons of powerplay time?

competition is all well and good but when it comes to Cleary there is no actual competition

Babcock pretty much just plays whoever he likes and he loves Cleary