GDT: Sept 17th Preseason vs Chicago 8pm

SoupNazi

Serenity now. Insanity later.
Feb 6, 2010
26,516
15,080
When I was 21 I took a job that paid <$5hr and worked my butt off. The guys there who worked 12+ years were earning $24+ hr and worked half as hard and got 4 weeks paid vacation while i got 0.

I guess that's what happens when you're the newb. Same thing can be applied to this forum. I have under 30 posts and a lot of members with 1000+ post counts tell me I should try watching the Red Wings play once in awhile. I don't react to those comments because I have not missed a Red Wings game in 31 years. My honeymoon I watched hockey, the day my daughter was born i watched hockey, the day after my fathers funeral I watched hockey, the day of my divorce I watched hockey... it's what I enjoy.

That said, I wasn't disgruntled and worked less hard because I felt screwed, I worked harder to get up through the ranks faster than they did :laugh:

People here think its acceptable if Nyquist pouts and gives up, I say *******, man up and earn it!

Those times might be connected.

That said, I don't think Nyquist is pouting about this.
 

HTT3*

Guest
Master Mind people aren't calling for a oilers model. It is Pejorative Slured (their model), unproven, and way to random to be considered dependable.

The people who are calling for a blackhawks model are saying keep your core and bring into the fold young players and play them as secondary players so we are not stuck with has beens that don't produce **** ala cleary, sammy, bertuzzi and such. The hawks have modeled around the secondary players being produced threw the ranks.

As such it allows them maximum benefit of young contracts (that are not $ inefficient) when they are cheap and playing their balls off to earn a good contract so that for the 3-5 years we have them effieciently we can view them and see if they are worth bringing into the fold (as core players) to replace our current core as they regress with age.

As much as it pains me to say this the scotty bowman (stan doesn't make the calls sorry) led hawks have shown and proven this is the best model in the cap payroll era. We as a team are also potentially 3 years away from falling down to first round at best playoff performances or the perpetual calgary flames model of in the bottom of the middle where we are given to decline into a bottom dwellar due to never finishing low enough to have a chance at a great/good talent in the draft until we embrace a rebuild status.

The only chance we have of avoiding this based on our puck possesion model is if somehow a #1 center makes it to free agency and we get them. I am not saying all our current prospect centers will bust but at best currently we only have one that appears to be on track to hit as a #2 center let alone a #1. We currently have 2-3 that could be middle tweeners (2-3 line centers). Granted one or more could home run and become top 6 to replace datsyuk and z but why run the risk of long odds and hoping they exceed to replace what we have.

If we continue our current model we before we know it will become a non internal cap team equvilant of the Nashville Predators and that is a disgrace. We are not a internal cap team. We can spend every year to within 1-2 million of the cap or max it out. And we never finish low enough to pick a top 6 or top 3 potential draft center.

Granted it would appear (still to early to say definatively) we have a rebuild on our defense coming but we are seriously lacking in the center aspect of our prospects. I also think it speaks volumes as to why weiss was signed. I don't think he is bad at all but if our organization doesn't feel we have a good shot at a #2 center for at least 5 years that speaks volumes about our team descending into the middle of the pack in around 3-5 years.

Bryan Bickell came out of nowhere and really pulled the Hawks through the playoffs. Wings didn't have a kid to do that, but Dan Cleary did it with close to the same playoff points in far fewer games.

The bottom line, vets vs kids is a fun debate, but hard to convince someone with an open mind how much better the team would have done better had Sheahan, Tatar, and/or Farreo played over that 34 year old Cleary guy.

Shaw and Saad (to an extent) showed up okay, but B.Smith... where was he? He looked pretty much exactly like he did in the AHL. He's a complete bonehead, always has been, always will be. He's not the hope for the future of the franchise. He's too dumb to be a guy to make an impact on the team. Tons of skill, 0 hockey IQ.

What about Emmerton, he was okay, but didn't make an impact like Shaw did. Even Nyquist 2 goals, 5 points. Shaw had like what 5 goals?

What other vets should have been benched in favor of Sheahan, Tatar, Farreo? I mean did you want the 2nd best point getter benched in favor of a rookie? Maybe Babcock and Holland like their jobs and don't want to get fired.
 
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Chance on Chance

Registered User
Jul 15, 2009
2,851
0
Canada
Bryan Bickell came out of nowhere and really pulled the Hawks through the playoffs. Wings didn't have a kid to do that, but Dan Cleary did it with close to the same playoff points in far fewer games.

The bottom line, vets vs kids is a fun debate, but hard to convince someone with an open mind how much better the team would have done better had Sheahan, Tatar, and/or Farreo played over that 34 year old Cleary guy.

Shaw and Saad (to an extent) showed up okay, but B.Smith... where was he? He looked pretty much exactly like he did in the AHL. He's a complete bonehead, always has been, always will be. He's not the hope for the future of the franchise. He's too dumb to be a guy to make an impact on the team. Tons of skill, 0 hockey IQ.

What about Emmerton, he was okay, but didn't make an impact like Shaw did. Even Nyquist 2 goals, 5 points. Shaw had like what 5 goals?

What other vets should have been benched in favor of Sheahan, Tatar, Farreo? I mean did you want the 2nd best point getter benched in favor of a rookie? Maybe Babcock and Holland like their jobs and don't want to get fired.

here's clearys playoff stats
6 0 1 1
18 4 8 12
22 2 1 3
23 9 6 15
12 2 0 2
11 2 4 6
5 0 0 0
14 4 6 10

all over the place, one year hes on fire the next he cant score at all. He also gets a lot of ice time with good players. And hes 34 now and thats when players really start to decline. Prime age is 24-30/31 with a peak year in that time frame.
 

odin1981

There can be only 1!
Mar 8, 2013
5,063
905
Canton Mi
Considering that he only produced one goal himself and a **** ton of secondary assists yes he should be replaced. You also named the player that should replace him (tatar). Emmerton I feel is only around due to helms injury bug but a good case could be made for sheahan to leap frog him.

B smith needs exp he didn't get one year with lidstrom would have been so much better than a year in the ahl. He also needs a d partner that isn't quincy.

Bertuzzi, sammy, cleary, and quincy off this team gives us almost 11 million off our salary cap that doesn't do ****. Sign a dependable vet 6 defensive dman to that can skate average at worst for around 1-2 million drops us to nine million we can float towards fa this coming year or trade deadline pick ups that won't be one or more off the following: morons, puck possesion black holes, slow and none of the above provide anything considering we still have a vet core of d, z, alfie, and kronner.

Hey look at that we no longer have a log jam of forwards sheahan or ironhook our are first center call ups depending on our need (who is hurt) or 4th line center depending on helm's health (sheahan specifically for helm), And first 2 forward call ups our jurco and ferraro maybe even glendaring depending on what we need.

Next year we could bring up Glendaring for eaves. And we will have this year to follow the progress of other gr prospects to see who to bring in next year. We would also have a first round pick back (quincy) more than likely not have to use a buyout on cc (he could slot in as our vet 7th dman or we keep huskins). Also the past few years mistakes would be erased and we would only have a potentially log jammed d corps prospect wise however that being said it is never a bad thing to have quite a few d-men on the up and coming because even if we can't fit them all d men even prospects usually at the very least turn into 3rd round or better picks or d prospect swaps for center swaps.
 
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MTU hockey

Registered User
Mar 4, 2013
431
132
Colorado
What other vets should have been benched in favor of Sheahan, Tatar, Farreo? I mean did you want the 2nd best point getter benched in favor of a rookie? Maybe Babcock and Holland like their jobs and don't want to get fired.

Ah yes, Keith and Seabrook were shaking in their skates just thinking about defending the offensive powerhouse Daniel Cleary:sarcasm:

Only one of Cleary's goals was with his stick and against a goalie. One of his goals was an empty net, another one was a deflection off his body from a defenseman throwing him like a rag doll in front of a puck. Throw in a bunch of secondary assists and you got yourself a second leading scorer. Although, Brunner scored one less point than him while playing less minutes:nod:.

Also, Cleary's defensive abilities are exaggerated. I can distinctly remember two instances in the Chicago series where Cleary left a man uncovered in order to go double cover someone that was clearly already being covered by a teammate. Both times it resulted in a goal. There could be more examples of this but that is all I can remember at the moment.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,320
14,812
I guess that's what happens when you're the newb. Same thing can be applied to this forum. I have under 30 posts and a lot of members with 1000+ post counts tell me I should try watching the Red Wings play once in awhile.

Bryan Bickell came out of nowhere and really pulled the Hawks through the playoffs. Wings didn't have a kid to do that, but Dan Cleary did it with close to the same playoff points in far fewer games.

The bottom line, vets vs kids is a fun debate, but hard to convince someone with an open mind how much better the team would have done better had Sheahan, Tatar, and/or Farreo played over that 34 year old Cleary guy.

Shaw and Saad (to an extent) showed up okay, but B.Smith... where was he? He looked pretty much exactly like he did in the AHL. He's a complete bonehead, always has been, always will be. He's not the hope for the future of the franchise. He's too dumb to be a guy to make an impact on the team. Tons of skill, 0 hockey IQ.

What about Emmerton, he was okay, but didn't make an impact like Shaw did. Even Nyquist 2 goals, 5 points. Shaw had like what 5 goals?

What other vets should have been benched in favor of Sheahan, Tatar, Farreo? I mean did you want the 2nd best point getter benched in favor of a rookie? Maybe Babcock and Holland like their jobs and don't want to get fired.

It doesn't help your credibility when you claim to have knowledge of our prospect pool, and then go on to call one of our better prospects (Ferraro) "Farreo", not once, but twice.
 

HTT3*

Guest
It doesn't help your credibility when you claim to have knowledge of our prospect pool, and then go on to call one of our better prospects (Ferraro) "Farreo", not once, but twice.

I flew almost all day yesterday, was up all night and have a 7am drive from Traverse City to Livonia tomorrow for a conference I'm half prepared for. I could give a **** abuot my grammar right now. :laugh:
 

Flowah

Registered User
Nov 30, 2009
10,249
547
I guess that's what happens when you're the newb. Same thing can be applied to this forum. I have under 30 posts and a lot of members with 1000+ post counts tell me I should try watching the Red Wings play once in awhile.

Look, you're going to have to focus here. No one. Not a single damn person. In this entire thread, as pointed to your post count, or mentioned that you are new, in an effort to discredit you. No one even suggested it.

The only reason, the absolutely only reason, you are getting any hostility at all, is because you seem to have very little knowledge of the prospect pool and because you make things up. Seriously. You are. You keep saying that we're trying to get unready prospects into the lineup. You keep saying that we want the team to tank to get some top draft picks and start over. No one has said anything that even resembles that.

No one cares that you're new. It doesn't factor into this discussion at all.
It doesn't help your credibility when you claim to have knowledge of our prospect pool, and then go on to call one of our better prospects (Ferraro) "Farreo", not once, but twice.
Or that Cleary is better than Nyquist? I still have trouble wrapping my head around that one.
 

RedWingsNow*

Guest
Look, you're going to have to focus here. No one. Not a single damn person. In this entire thread, as pointed to your post count, or mentioned that you are new, in an effort to discredit you. No one even suggested it.

The only reason, the absolutely only reason, you are getting any hostility at all, is because you seem to have very little knowledge of the prospect pool and because you make things up. Seriously. You are. You keep saying that we're trying to get unready prospects into the lineup. You keep saying that we want the team to tank to get some top draft picks and start over. No one has said anything that even resembles that.

No one cares that you're new. It doesn't factor into this discussion at all.

Or that Cleary is better than Nyquist? I still have trouble wrapping my head around that one.

I don't believe Mastermind is new here at all..
 

HTT3*

Guest
Look, you're going to have to focus here. No one. Not a single damn person. In this entire thread, as pointed to your post count, or mentioned that you are new, in an effort to discredit you. No one even suggested it.

The only reason, the absolutely only reason, you are getting any hostility at all, is because you seem to have very little knowledge of the prospect pool and because you make things up. Seriously. You are. You keep saying that we're trying to get unready prospects into the lineup. You keep saying that we want the team to tank to get some top draft picks and start over. No one has said anything that even resembles that.

No one cares that you're new. It doesn't factor into this discussion at all.

Or that Cleary is better than Nyquist? I still have trouble wrapping my head around that one.


To summarize, I think what I pretty much said was I see what KH and Babcock are doing, I get it and think it's good asset management.

I'm not sure I used the word better, but clutch in the playoffs. I said over and over again Nyquist is a good player, just not the savior everyone thinks he is. I also said if this teams' hopes are pinned on Cleary vs Nyquist for playoff Stanley cup success, then we're in BIG trouble.

Cleary is on the decline just like a Datsyuk and Zetterberg are, but he still has value and helps make the team better when it counts. He had a rough regular season last year and may have not been as healthy as he led on, but he more than made up for it in the POs.

I said a few times it is fun to debate vets vs kids, but at the end of the day neither are going to push the team from above average to 2002 elite. There are many factors in Holland (and Babcock's) decision making that I get, understand, and agree with. Other folks don't agree with it. I get that, but at the end of the day, I want the team to win. I think they have the best chance doing what KH and Babcock sought out to do; having spare tires in the arsenal and depth at your disposal is always good thing.
 

Flowah

Registered User
Nov 30, 2009
10,249
547
I'm not sure I used the word better, but clutch in the playoffs. I said over and over again Nyquist is a good player, just not the savior everyone thinks he is. I also said if this teams' hopes are pinned on Cleary vs Nyquist for playoff Stanley cup success, then we're in BIG trouble.

I said a few times it is fun to debate vets vs kids, but at the end of the day neither are going to push the team from above average to 2002 elite.

You literally said this a few pages ago.

"Right now Cleary is better than Nyquist. No doubt Nyquist did very well last season, but Cleary was the warrior who scored more points."

That is a direct quote. Not only can you not keep other people's arguments straight, you seem unable to keep track of your own arguments. Come on.

And YET AGAIN, you mischaracterize our position. I keep challenging you to show me where any poster said the things you said we did. So I will do so one more time. Show me where anyone pointed to Nyquist as a savior. Show me where anyone said the kids would make our team 2002 elite.

We only say that they make our team better, and that we should be icing our best team. Tatar and Nyquist are better than Cleary, Abby, Eaves, Miller, Tootoo, Sammy, Bert. They are younger, faster than most of them, they definitely both have more skill than those other players. Moreover they actually have untapped upside. All those players I listed have been in the league for a long time. They are known commodities. They aren't going to get any better, most of them will only get worse. Cleary, Sammy, Bert, are all on the complete wrong side of 30 and getting older, they will continue to decline.

So, let me spell this out for you in plain english, black and white.

We want to ice the best team possible out of everyone we have at our disposal. We think both Tatar and Nyquist make the team better when they replace guys like Cleary, Abby, Eaves, Miller, Tootoo, Sammy, Bert. No one thinks they are saviors. No one thinks they guarantee a cup. No one thinks they are "elite" players. They are simply upgrades over those other players. And if you have a better player available, it is stupid not to use them.

Can you stop completely mischaracterizing our arguments now? Seriously, it's really annoying. It's like if I said your position was that we should trade away all our prospects for picks/veterans and use only players over 30.
 

WingedWheel1987

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
13,342
925
GPP Michigan
Using spare tires over the brand new tire when you are driving from LA to NYC is moronic and short sighted.

Ken Holland's asset management has been abysmal the past four years.

This team is not contending with Danny Cleary, Bertuzzi and Sammy. You play the youth when you aren't contending. You don't keep signing washed up garbage. It hurts you in the long run and gets you nowhere in the short term.

It looks like you find it impossible for Holland and Babcock to make mistakes.

"I get it and think it's good asset management." No sane individual would categorize what Kenny Holland is doing as good asset management. Especially when you see a team win two cups in four years doing the exact opposite of what Kenny Holland is doing.

Nobody is advocating blowing up the roster. They want the kids to get ice time so we can see if they can improve their play in the NHL and eventually outproduce their ELC contracts. Getting rid of garbage like Cleary and Sammy can only help the team in the short and long term.
 

HTT3*

Guest
"Right now Cleary is better than Nyquist. No doubt Nyquist did very well last season, but Cleary was the warrior who scored more points."


Thank you for posting that, I stand corrected. I did use the word "better". However, it appears that it only re-enforces what I said; clutch and warrior in the playoffs and was better in the playoffs, not only that. 5 points vs 10 points respectively. Double the points of Nyquist and, if I remember correctly, had a few big goals when it really mattered the most.

Debating trivial word use is funny on message forum, it kinda makes me feel special and important that someone would spend so much time dissecting the use of a word, I'm not really this important in real life... :laugh:

If Nyquist does get to play a full season this year, I imagine the bar is set really high for him to perform and perform consistently. I'd be happy if he is a 12-15 goal guy and gets maybe 22 to 30 points, depending on if he has a finisher on his line. I think that would be fair for his first full season. He was on pace for about 11 goals last season. That's about what Miller produces on a down year. However, I think Cleary can outproduce that with 3rd line minutes.
 

HTT3*

Guest
"I get it and think it's good asset management." No sane individual would categorize what Kenny Holland is doing as good asset management. Especially when you see a team win two cups in four years doing the exact opposite of what Kenny Holland is doing.

I'm insane because I can't relate with the same doom and gloom as others? Holland built a team that almost won back-to-back in 2008 and 2009 doing it the Red Wings way, prior to that went to the WCFs against the Ducks, and last year lost GM#7 in OT from an unlucky deflection down a top 6 forward for nearly the entire game to the eventual cup champs; played them better than any other team in the post season. Before that, Detroit beat the #2 western team who had home-ice advantage, 3 time zones away. Is that a consolation prize? No, just an indication that things may not be as bad as you think.

I just can't relate to the same doom and gloom.
 

RedWingsNow*

Guest
Fans are defending Cleary the warrior because he followed up a terrible regular season (perhaps one of the worst of all NHL forwards) with a bunch of secondary assists in the playoffs.
Fans also didn't care about losing Brunner, who produced about as good in less minutes, and who didn't suck the entire regular season.
 

MTU hockey

Registered User
Mar 4, 2013
431
132
Colorado
If Nyquist does get to play a full season this year, I imagine the bar is set really high for him to perform and perform consistently. I'd be happy if he is a 12-15 goal guy and gets maybe 22 to 30 points, depending on if he has a finisher on his line. I think that would be fair for his first full season. He was on pace for about 11 goals last season. That's about what Miller produces on a down year. However, I think Cleary can outproduce that with 3rd line minutes.


That's ridiculous. Nyquist got one third of Clearys points during the regular season. And Nyquist played less than half the amount of games Cleary did. Cleary also got to play with Pavel & Z the entire season averaging 2:30 on the power play. For two seasons in a row Cleary has produced or was on pace to produce about 30 pts. again with top 6 minutes and D/Z as linemates. So I disagree, I don't think Cleary outproduce Nyquist getting 3rd line minutes.
 

Petes2424

Registered User
Aug 4, 2005
8,101
2,424
It's ridiculous to sit here and keep arguing about Bert and Samuelsson vs Nyquist. Babcock played Nyquist over both in the playoffs. So some of you already received half of your wish. Not sure what the whines about.

Don't know how many times it needs to be said. You put the team on the ice that gives you the best opportunity to win. If you're enamored with pure offensive guys, you go with all the Tatars in the world. Until Tatar can prove he's a better player than Cleary, Cleary will continue to play above him.

The Wings tried throwing a bunch of Tatars on the ice in the early 90s. Where'd that get them? You couldn't play both Tatar and Brunner on the same team in the playoffs. The liability would've been huge. Tatar is getting his opportunity. Thats all players can ask. Not sure what the whining is about. Cleary makes this a better hockey team 1-12 up front.

Thats why he was brought back. Not to be given a spot above a more deserving guy. If Tatar out performs him, he'll play ahead of him. That has yet to happen. Just scoring a couple goals doesn't make you a good player. Especially in this system.
 

RedWingsNow*

Guest
It's ridiculous to sit here and keep arguing about Bert and Samuelsson vs Nyquist. Babcock played Nyquist over both in the playoffs. So some of you already received half of your wish. Not sure what the whines about.

Don't know how many times it needs to be said. You put the team on the ice that gives you the best opportunity to win. If you're enamored with pure offensive guys, you go with all the Tatars in the world. Until Tatar can prove he's a better player than Cleary, Cleary will continue to play above him.

The Wings tried throwing a bunch of Tatars on the ice in the early 90s. Where'd that get them? You couldn't play both Tatar and Brunner on the same team in the playoffs. The liability would've been huge. Tatar is getting his opportunity. Thats all players can ask. Not sure what the whining is about. Cleary makes this a better hockey team 1-12 up front.

Thats why he was brought back. Not to be given a spot above a more deserving guy. If Tatar out performs him, he'll play ahead of him. That has yet to happen. Just scoring a couple goals doesn't make you a good player. Especially in this system.

Stop calling people whiners -- it looks like sour grapes, especially as you pretend Danny Cleary is any good defensively anymore.

Danny Cleary had the second worst plus/minus relative to the team last year.
In the playoffs, he was third worst.
He was fourth worst in 11-12.

If Danny Cleary was busting up and down the ice, breaking up plays and causing turnovers and finishing checks, nobody would complain about Cleary.

But he's old, slow and broken down.
 

silkyjohnson50

Registered User
Jan 10, 2007
11,301
1,178
It's ridiculous to sit here and keep arguing about Bert and Samuelsson vs Nyquist. Babcock played Nyquist over both in the playoffs. So some of you already received half of your wish. Not sure what the whines about.

Don't know how many times it needs to be said. You put the team on the ice that gives you the best opportunity to win. If you're enamored with pure offensive guys, you go with all the Tatars in the world. Until Tatar can prove he's a better player than Cleary, Cleary will continue to play above him.

The Wings tried throwing a bunch of Tatars on the ice in the early 90s. Where'd that get them? You couldn't play both Tatar and Brunner on the same team in the playoffs. The liability would've been huge. Tatar is getting his opportunity. Thats all players can ask. Not sure what the whining is about. Cleary makes this a better hockey team 1-12 up front.

Thats why he was brought back. Not to be given a spot above a more deserving guy. If Tatar out performs him, he'll play ahead of him. That has yet to happen. Just scoring a couple goals doesn't make you a good player. Especially in this system.

I'd love to hear what Dan Cleary brings to the table that makes this a better team... Outside of the subjective "locker room presence" that none of us can see, explain to me in which ways Dan Cleary is a useful hockey player more. I'm begging.

Let me guess.. "He's a gritty, good ol' boy who goes to the ditty areas and the coach can trust in any situation."

Here's the truth: He's not effective. He can't skate, he's soft on the puck, he's not effective on the forecheck, he's poor defensively, he doesn't win any 50/50 puck battles, he has no puck protection, he takes more penalties than anybody on the team, and he's no Holmstrom in front of the net. Players that play the type of game that Cleary plays are very valuable players. However they have to be able to play it. Guess what? Cleary cannot play that game. He sucks. His game is night and day from what it used to be. Why don't we bring Shanahan back as well since he also used to play the type of game that would help this team. Chelios should get a call back too. We could really use a gritty, stay at home PK monster. It doesn't matter if he's no longer effective at it! He plays the type of game this team needs.

New flash: having a player that does nothing good doesn't win games and make a team complete. Comparing Cleary's presence to anything that occurred to win the Cup in 1997 is a disgrace. I'm sure a moderator will warn me for that but I don't even care. How anyone could keep defending Cleary is beyond words. Watch the man play.
 

EbonyRaptor

Registered User
Jul 10, 2009
7,273
3,177
Geezerville
I've followed the last few pages of this thread and as a Hawks fan I can tell you that I was more worried about Nyquist scoring on us than anyone else (other than Dats and Z). If I were a Wings fan it would drive me nuts that more Griffins haven't taken roster spots away from the Wings old timers.

One of the things I was jealous of the Wings about was that players like Dats and Z played bottom-6 roles when they were young players while you guys were rolling out an all star top-6. It was like - what a concept - skill guys playing on the 3rd and 4th line. All the while my Hawks didn't even have anyone like Dats and Z on our top line.

And it's not like your young guys are still teenagers. They're in their early and mid-20's so it's not like you're waiting for them to physically mature more. I agree that Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan and even a guy that hasn't gotten much N.A ice time like Jarnkrok would make the Wings a better team by the end of the season than playing Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Eaves, and Miller.

Often times players will plateau unless they're promoted and can play with better players. Datsyuk and Zetterberg have only so many seasons of elite level play left. Don't squander a season playing those old guys when the young guys can gain a year experience and grow their game at the NHL level playing with elite players. So maybe it means the growing pains results in the Wings playoff record being broken - but the probability of winning the Cup the following year is a lot better than wasting this year and using next year to suffer through the young players growing pains.
 

DRWCountryClub

Registered User
Jun 28, 2010
3,970
0
I've followed the last few pages of this thread and as a Hawks fan I can tell you that I was more worried about Nyquist scoring on us than anyone else (other than Dats and Z). If I were a Wings fan it would drive me nuts that more Griffins haven't taken roster spots away from the Wings old timers.

One of the things I was jealous of the Wings about was that players like Dats and Z played bottom-6 roles when they were young players while you guys were rolling out an all star top-6. It was like - what a concept - skill guys playing on the 3rd and 4th line. All the while my Hawks didn't even have anyone like Dats and Z on our top line.

And it's not like your young guys are still teenagers. They're in their early and mid-20's so it's not like you're waiting for them to physically mature more. I agree that Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan and even a guy that hasn't gotten much N.A ice time like Jarnkrok would make the Wings a better team by the end of the season than playing Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Eaves, and Miller.

Often times players will plateau unless they're promoted and can play with better players. Datsyuk and Zetterberg have only so many seasons of elite level play left. Don't squander a season playing those old guys when the young guys can gain a year experience and grow their game at the NHL level playing with elite players. So maybe it means the growing pains results in the Wings playoff record being broken - but the probability of winning the Cup the following year is a lot better than wasting this year and using next year to suffer through the young players growing pains.

Thanks for telling us what we already know. :sarcasm:
 

OldnotDeadWings

Registered User
Sep 18, 2013
356
388
The idea of a Blackhawks’ fan advising that the Wings should willingly submit to temporary mediocrity for the sake of future improvement doesn't sit well with me. So I'll submit a few thoughts in a first post, one too long and probably not popular.

The issue of when to give young players a roster spot is obviously a hot topic. It always has been. I've been following the Red Wings for more than half a century, and through all the draft successes and failures and player development plans, the one thing that has stood out as the biggest mistake a team can make (other than to have crappy drafts for about five years) is to grant a young player too much NHL ice time before he is ready. It's a mistake for the player and it's a mistake for his NHL teammates. There is no guarantee the player will develop and, if you’re wrong, the impact is felt for much more than one season. It affects the player’s value, in your eyes and those of other teams in the league, it affects teammates' performance, it puts pressure on the team to do something to compensate for the mistake, it unnecessarily increases payroll, it may cost a coach his job. We can debate whether or not a young player who fails and becomes a lost draft pick might have succeeded if more time had been spent in Junior or the Minors, but there is no debate about players who never made it because they spent too long in the Minors. If they’re good enough (in all respects: mentally, physically and emotionally), and healthy enough, they’ll make it. Playing them too soon invites all sort of negative consequences and very rarely any positive consequences.

Of course, the evaluation of a player’s preparedness for the top level is a subjective art, not a science. And like all arts there is plenty of room for different opinions, even at the highest level. A player on Team A may be judged ready, the same player on Team B may not be. Both teams may be right. The proof is generally in the pudding. If a team makes misjudgments, the cost of that will eventually become obvious. There is nothing obvious in the Wings' performance last year to attribute player development as a negative. In fact, the opposite is a more logical evaluation. In my opinion the only obvious mistake the Wings have made in personnel evaluations in recent years was with Kyle Quincey. They undervalued him as a prospect and overvalued him as a veteran, and paid the price twice. I can't think of a player on another team I wish the Wings had kept (maybe Shawn Matthias) rather than the player acquired. I think you can rationally defend just about every other player move, at least until the recent signing of Cleary. I really don’t believe that is in the Wings' best interests but I will hold out hope that his shift responsibilities eventually evolve into providing popcorn to bloggers in the press box.

In my view the Wings played last year's development process perfectly. There was no way that team was going to make the playoffs without a full commitment to defensive hockey, and anything less than a full push to make the playoffs would have been contrary to what every decent team tries to do. The lockout and compressed schedule last year created a unique situation. Limited training camp, reduced practice time, less time for teaching, injuries were assured. If you do not start with a roster full of players willing and capable of buying into the style required to make the playoffs in a season with little margin for error, then you are creating a losing scenario. A spot in the pressbox is not going to attract any veteran free agent, so right off the bat you are signing veteran dregs with no track record of success. Before long you are hitting the waiver wire for bottom sixers or making mistakes with other young players. Having a deep roster, including a capable guy or two in Grand Rapids, was the most sensible way to approach the compressed season. I don't really care that other teams found ways to get young players into their lineups. Team circumstances differ. Chicago, for example, had plenty of room for error. In most cases, the young players mentioned on other teams as examples of what the Wings should be doing are clearly superior prospects or have better NHL capability now than the best Detroit prospects. The Saads, Leddys, Etems, etc are just flat out better young NHL players than Tatar, Nyquist and Smith. Further to Saad and Leddy, in the playoffs they were the Hawks I was least concerned about. Great skaters, but to little effect and the rest of their game was AHL level. Bickell was a beast and guess what, he was a prospect the Hawks have shown great patience with. They didn't rush him, or had the sense to abort a couple of premature promotions, they kept sending him down, and he finally figured out how to contribute. The wait was well worth it. Perhaps the Wings rushed Abdelkader because, at least in the AHL, he was a much more productive player than Bickell. Perhaps promoting him to the NHL as a useful young grinder actually hindered his confidence with the puck and obliterated an offensive mindset that, in my most optimistic outlook, will start to reassert itself this season. It's well worth a look to start the season with him on the top line.

As for the Wings top prospects, the only one I think is elite is Mrazek. He needs to start this season in the AHL, playing full time. If Howard is injured I would expect Mrazek to come up and be the starter and do a great job. I love Nyquist, but unless he develops a much better shot and an aggressive offensive mentality he'll never be the top six elite winger everyone hopes he might become. He certainly isn't right now. He's going into just his third professional season, so he still has plenty of time to learn. He gained more in my view from being part of two playoff runs than he would have by the Wings sacrificing this past season's playoff chances by dressing three midget rookies in their top nine from day one. Tatar finally learned how to elevate his game in the proper environment. Smith showed me nothing last year to suggest he should have been in the NHL, on a full time basis, even earlier. Those three will all get 70 to 80 NHL games this year, plus playoffs, and the only thing preventing them being good contributors is their own limitations, or a trade. I do understand that rationalizing players' failures is common practice for fans, but you'll find very few retired NHLers who had long careers complaining about how they were developed or their ice time. If there were injustices, and of course there were for some players, they are viewed as events that motivated them to get better, to prove someone wrong. The big picture of how good they eventually became is seen as almost entirely a product of their own ability and whatever luck they had, good or bad, with injuries.

Sorry to go on a bit of rant. It wasn't really my intent to do so on my first post and what I should have done, at the start of this, is thank posters for making this such an informative and entertaining site for me to read over the past year or so. I've been a Wings fan during some dark times and this era is not one of them. They're set in goal, young on defense and likely to get better, they have a couple of game breakers and they will be a more physical team this year with Alfredsson and Weiss in the top six. There is a great mix of prospects in the pipeline and they have enough of them to acquire a solid veteran defenceman (Andy Greene would be a great partner for Smith or Kindl) or even a good young one (Karl Alzner, likewise) and the cap picture next year should allow them to make a major acquisition (Vanek or Ryan O'Reilly would be nice). This current cap trouble I’m sure will pass in what will prove to be mundane circumstances (yes, I would consider Nyquist spending a few weeks in the AHL to be mundane). I promise to make shorter submissions in the future.
 

Mister Ed

Registered User
Dec 21, 2008
5,258
974
I apoligize for not reading the whole 12 pages of reviews, but how did Ouellet look in hist first game?
 

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