GDT: Sept 17th Preseason vs Chicago 8pm

HTT3*

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If Cleary is your grittiest player you are ******. Cleary has zero grit. He is a dumpster fire. When Cleary is eventually resigned by Holland, we can finally stop worrying about this contending for anything but mediocrity for the next 3-4 years.

I understand peoples' anger and hyperbole posts. But the post you are referring to wasn't Cleary. The part you missed I mentioned for Cleary was the clutch playoff warrior who was 2nd in points on the roster during the playoffs. Wings made it as far as they did because of him and Zetterberg. I can name a ton of players (both young and old) that didn't step up and didn't really pull their weight. Cleary wasn't one of them.

I do, however, find the Cleary hate fascinating. Not sure what your reasoning is though because I think you said it wasn't about winning, but giving the kids a shot. Nyquist got his shot and did well, but I don't think Cleary took a spot from Tatar, I think that would be either Miller or Eaves who took the spot where he'd play last season. Eaves likely gone this year.
 

Rzombo4 prez

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May 17, 2012
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The posts you are referring to is the concept "if you're not winning, you're losing".

If you want to win, you go with the best players to help you win, which are the vets.

If you want to play for the future and don't care about Dats and Zetters closing window, then play all the kids.

If you want surefire Stanely cups, tank for 10+ years and stock up some top 3 picks year in, year out.

Depending what your goals are for the team, I guess.

And where is your support for this? You act as if it is some a priori truth.
 

WingedWheel1987

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I understand peoples' anger and hyperbole posts. But the post you are referring to wasn't Cleary. The part you missed I mentioned for Cleary was the clutch playoff warrior who was 2nd in points on the roster during the playoffs. Wings made it as far as they did because of him and Zetterberg. I can name a ton of players (both young and old) that didn't step up and didn't really pull their weight. Cleary wasn't one of them.

I do, however, find the Cleary hate fascinating. Not sure what your reasoning is though because I think you said it wasn't about winning, but giving the kids a shot. Nyquist got his shot and did well, but I don't think Cleary took a spot from Tatar, I think that would be either Miller or Eaves who took the spot where he'd play last season. Eaves likely gone this year.

Wings third line is the reason the Wings had any success in the playoffs.

Danny Cleary is not some kind of clutch playoff warrior. That is some hyperbole right there.

Guy get's a little lucky and he is suddenly some kind of indispensable playoff asset who just coasts in the regular season and flips the switch in the playoffs.
 

Chance on Chance

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I understand peoples' anger and hyperbole posts. But the post you are referring to wasn't Cleary. The part you missed I mentioned for Cleary was the clutch playoff warrior who was 2nd in points on the roster during the playoffs. Wings made it as far as they did because of him and Zetterberg. I can name a ton of players (both young and old) that didn't step up and didn't really pull their weight. Cleary wasn't one of them.

I do, however, find the Cleary hate fascinating. Not sure what your reasoning is though because I think you said it wasn't about winning, but giving the kids a shot. Nyquist got his shot and did well, but I don't think Cleary took a spot from Tatar, I think that would be either Miller or Eaves who took the spot where he'd play last season. Eaves likely gone this year.

So Dan Cleary the clutch playoff performer missing piece guy had to wait till a week before training camp to sign. Your pumping him up like he's a star
 

HTT3*

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Except Cleary bert and Sammy aren't better. We don't need a full blow up just a re-tool. Gus and Tatar give us the same chance at the cup as those other guys

Right now Cleary is better than Nyquist. No doubt Nyquist did very well last season, but Cleary was the warrior who scored more points.

This pre-season, so far, Nyquist seems to be coasting. If he wants to make a case for himself, he better get to it.. and quickly. So far Samuelsson seems to have the edge between the two.
 

Soft Rock Renegade

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May 17, 2012
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Right now Cleary is better than Nyquist. No doubt Nyquist did very well last season, but Cleary was the warrior who scored more points.

This pre-season, so far, Nyquist seems to be coasting. If he wants to make a case for himself, he better get to it.. and quickly. So far Samuelsson seems to have the edge between the two.

haha. nyquist was our best player in preseason two years ago and look where its got him. cant say i blame him if he's not exactly motivated right now.
 

Chance on Chance

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Jul 15, 2009
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Right now Cleary is better than Nyquist. No doubt Nyquist did very well last season, but Cleary was the warrior who scored more points.

This pre-season, so far, Nyquist seems to be coasting. If he wants to make a case for himself, he better get to it.. and quickly. So far Samuelsson seems to have the edge between the two.

So what are we getting last year's playoff warrior Cleary or 09 2 points in 12 games. And keep in mind he gets top line minutes and pp time with two top 10 players in the league. Let gus or Tatar have that ice time for 10 games
 

HTT3*

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I'm not a pro hockey GM or professional scout, but I would consider myself intelligent and understand the game very well. My opinions are against the grain here, I get that. But it doesn't make it trolling. If that's true, then I guess the entire Red Wings' franchise from Mike Illitch down to the water boy are all trolling you :laugh:

I would think the Illitch family, Holland, Babcock's all best interest is in winning and icing the best possible team. They are not some fly-by-night franchise with no experience on how to win...

Right or wrong, maybe I just see what they see.
 
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Aug 6, 2012
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Can't believe some of you are ripping on a team's philosophy that resulted in two cups in four years and a good chance for more.


The Blackhawks roster structure actually has similarities, especially the defenseman, to the Wings roster (though they're obviously better):

5 above-average skating defenseman (which I believe is the most underrated aspect of Chicago's roster - the ability of their defenseman to skate out of trouble):
Keith ---> Kronwall
Ericcson ---> Seabrook
Smith ---> Leddy
DeKeyser ---> Hjalmarsson
Kindl ---> Oduya

I actually believe the Wings defensive corps has the potential to be just as good as the Hawks if Ouellet replaces Quincey. The difference being ours more offensive-minded and slightly worse defensively (Hjalmarsson is the best defensive defenseman in the league by the way).


The scoring lines for each team tend to be similar (though Hawks have a better second line):

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader is pretty much on par with Bickell-Toews-Kane. I'd actually give us the edge because of two-way play.

Franzen-Weiss-Alfredsson is slightly worse (even with the huge center disparity) than Sharp-Saad/Pirri-Hossa. Both Hawk's wingers are better and bring a slightly more two-way game.


The big difference between the rosters which even overcomes Detroit's slight goaltender advantage is Chicago's forward depth (which happens to be from their youth):

Tatar-Andersson-Cleary can't compete with Saad-Handzus-Shaw
And no way in hell can Miller-Emmerton-Whoever** compete with Hayes-Kruger-Morin
 

odin1981

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Master Mind people aren't calling for a oilers model. It is Pejorative Slured (their model), unproven, and way to random to be considered dependable.

The people who are calling for a blackhawks model are saying keep your core and bring into the fold young players and play them as secondary players so we are not stuck with has beens that don't produce **** ala cleary, sammy, bertuzzi and such. The hawks have modeled around the secondary players being produced threw the ranks.

As such it allows them maximum benefit of young contracts (that are not $ inefficient) when they are cheap and playing their balls off to earn a good contract so that for the 3-5 years we have them effieciently we can view them and see if they are worth bringing into the fold (as core players) to replace our current core as they regress with age.

As much as it pains me to say this the scotty bowman (stan doesn't make the calls sorry) led hawks have shown and proven this is the best model in the cap payroll era. We as a team are also potentially 3 years away from falling down to first round at best playoff performances or the perpetual calgary flames model of in the bottom of the middle where we are given to decline into a bottom dwellar due to never finishing low enough to have a chance at a great/good talent in the draft until we embrace a rebuild status.

The only chance we have of avoiding this based on our puck possesion model is if somehow a #1 center makes it to free agency and we get them. I am not saying all our current prospect centers will bust but at best currently we only have one that appears to be on track to hit as a #2 center let alone a #1. We currently have 2-3 that could be middle tweeners (2-3 line centers). Granted one or more could home run and become top 6 to replace datsyuk and z but why run the risk of long odds and hoping they exceed to replace what we have.

If we continue our current model we before we know it will become a non internal cap team equvilant of the Nashville Predators and that is a disgrace. We are not a internal cap team. We can spend every year to within 1-2 million of the cap or max it out. And we never finish low enough to pick a top 6 or top 3 potential draft center.

Granted it would appear (still to early to say definatively) we have a rebuild on our defense coming but we are seriously lacking in the center aspect of our prospects. I also think it speaks volumes as to why weiss was signed. I don't think he is bad at all but if our organization doesn't feel we have a good shot at a #2 center for at least 5 years that speaks volumes about our team descending into the middle of the pack in around 3-5 years.
 

WingedWheel1987

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I guess if "anyone having different opinion from mine = trolling".

I'm not a pro hockey GM or professional scout, but I would consider myself intelligent and understand the game very well. My opinions are against the grain here, I get that. But it doesn't make it trolling. If that's true, then I guess the entire Red Wings' franchise from Mike Illitch down to the water boy are all trolling you :laugh:

I would think the Illitch family, Holland, Babcock's all best interest is in winning and icing the best possible team. They are not some fly-by-night franchise with no experience on how to win...

Right or wrong, maybe I just see what they see.

Calling Dan Cleary a playoff warrior is absolutely ridiculous. Ken Holland and Mike Babcock have made some horrendous moves the past four years. They are not infallible. You only see the Wings organization that is incapable of making mistakes.

You are not icing the best team possible when you have garbage like Cleary, Sammy and to an extent Bert in your lineup. If the Chicago Blackhawks can find room for their prospects who were also drafted right around where the Wings drafted, why can't the Wings? It's because Ken Holland is OBSESSED with signing old and washed up garbage.
 
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Flowah

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Nov 30, 2009
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Adding Tatar, Nyquist, and give Ferraro and Glendening a shot will do nothing to push this team over the hump. If anything, it will set the team back. They simply are not the quality of players that make a cusp team that just went head-to-head in a grueling 7 game series on one leg into legit surefire contender.

To get the results that people here demand is to blow up the team and go the Chicago/Penguins/Kings route. There is no other alternative, that's the only way to build a surefire elite cup contender.

Hahaha. What? You think adding Tatar and Nyquist sets the team back? Okay, now I see the problem. You actually haven't watched the two play! Because they are actually better than half the forwards on the team.

And no, there are alternatives. Chicago has proven that. As long as you have a strong core, and good drafting, you can reload quickly. It doesn't matter that Chicago got their core by being terrible for so long, Wings have a core that is just as good, I'd say the Wings had a better core for the past 3 years actually, before Lidstrom left. Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Lidstrom were as ELITE a core group as you will find in the NHL. Two of the best two way forwards in the entire league, capable of centering lines on their own, and one of the best defenseman in the history of the sport.

I don't understand why you think it makes a difference whether you got the core by being bad or whether you got it through good drafting.

yes sharp and hossa have completed their team no doubt but if you replace kane and toews with nick ross and matt corrente(the 30th overall picks in toews and kanes draft class) then the hawks are not a very good let alone cup winning team, period.
You aren't winning a cup with just those two anyway. The rest of their roster for both wins were filled out by a ton of picks from later rounds and good FA signings. How you get your core is irrelevant. A core is merely a foundation. You still need to surround them with good players to be a contender. Chicago did.

i believe teams with a young core, under 26, both dont care and dont really need to assure proper development of their prospects as they're simply not integral to the long term health and success of their organization, if the hawks rush shaw to quick and he bottoms out who gives a crap it dosent matter whatsoever, if detroit rushes nyquist or tatar or mantha or jarnkrok we're in much more trouble
That actually makes some sense, but I don't think it's right. Only bottom feeder teams looking for immediate results rush their players. Other clubs aren't in the habit of doing things they think might stunt their prospects. Especially a club like Chicago which had just won a cup in 2010 and still had Hossa, Sharp, Kane, Toews, Keith. That is a solid bunch of players. There's no reason for them to rush Saad or Shaw and they didn't. They simply thought those two were ready and gave them a shot and neither disappointed or seem to have been stunted by it.

Actually, your logic goes another way. An older core has much less time to pass on their "legacy" to the next generation. Datsyuk is here for 4 more years tops most likely. We've already lost Lidstrom. We need to quickly identify the ready prospects that are most likely candidates for our new core and get them into the system to learn as much as they can from the best on our team. We don't have the luxury of waiting around like younger teams. They might get a couple shots at it to reload with a new group. We don't. Jarnkrok is going to spend at the very least, a full year in the AHL, probably 2-3. Datsyuk is pretty much gone by then. I hope next season, Jurco, Ferraro, Glendening get a real chance at camp.

Guy get's a little lucky and he is suddenly some kind of indispensable playoff asset who just coasts in the regular season and flips the switch in the playoffs.
They've been holding on to that for Franzen as well.

I question the sanity of anyone who places Cleary above Nyquist. Seriously question.
 

HTT3*

Guest
haha. nyquist was our best player in preseason two years ago and look where its got him. cant say i blame him if he's not exactly motivated right now.

If that truly is his attitude then I want him on the first bus out of town. I don't care about picks coming back, just leave.
 

Flowah

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If that truly is his attitude then I want him on the first bus out of town. I don't care about picks coming back, just leave.

Surprise surprise, when you get treated unfairly, you tend not to respond well. Wings don't treat their prospects fairly imo.

They feed them this ******** line about earning ice, "grabbing your cheese." But when they do it, if they're still able to be buried in the AHL, they will do it. You're not earning anything. You're waiting for your timer to run down so they're forced to use you.
 

Chance on Chance

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Surprise surprise, when you get treated unfairly, you tend not to respond well. Wings don't treat their prospects fairly imo.

They feed them this ******** line about earning ice, "grabbing your cheese." But when they do it, if they're still able to be buried in the AHL, they will do it. You're not earning anything. You're waiting for your timer to run down so they're forced to use you.

Think how much money their missing out on. That's gotta be maddening to them
 

Henkka

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http://www.freep.com/article/201309...ports05?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Pulkkinen was penalized two minutes into the first period at United Center after a hit on Chicago defenseman Michael Kostka.

Pulkkinen faces suspension that can exceed five games. Pulkkinen, 21, finished last season with the Griffins and is slated to play there again this season, so he won't burn any NHL suspension until a time he is called up by the Wings.

So no extra worries for the roster logjam. That could be served later.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Surprise surprise, when you get treated unfairly, you tend not to respond well. Wings don't treat their prospects fairly imo.

They feed them this ******** line about earning ice, "grabbing your cheese." But when they do it, if they're still able to be buried in the AHL, they will do it. You're not earning anything. You're waiting for your timer to run down so they're forced to use you.

Not that he will be happy, but at least Gus gets paid his full salary regardless this year, though it still hurts future earnings and surely angers him a great deal if he is sent to the AHL. This is something that needs to be thought about as well when you look at this. Outside of Kronwall, who came up pretty swiftly name the last guy to give us a break. Datsyuk and Zetterberg, sort of. Franzen maybe, guess what almost all of these guys didn't spend much time in this kind of system. Now look at what happens when Ericsson, Quincey, Kindl, Howard and the like sit across from the table. They don't get a break and a part of that is these guys have located that they lost money (some of them a lot of money) due to this strategy.
 

Flowah

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Nov 30, 2009
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Think how much money their missing out on. That's gotta be maddening to them

I'm sure they hate missing out on the money. After all you're playing a game where your career could end in one bad play.

But these guys are so competitive I really think their #1 concern is the competition. Some players could be making more in Russia. They prefer the NHL. I'm sure some of that is because this is their home, but a lot of it has to be the competition. How often do we hear the players talking about that? They want to play the best of the best and show they belong. They want to win it all. Players give up money all the time to go to a contender to hold that cup.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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http://www.freep.com/article/201309...ports05?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter



So no extra worries for the roster logjam. That could be served later.

I said this earlier in the thread, we got a good look at this with Smith a couple years ago. The AHL will honor his suspension if he gets one, making him sit for it. The NHL still doesn't honor those games though and they will call him up to sit in the press box and work them off at some point.

Pulks will miss some AHL time if they ring him up though, as that is what the AHL does.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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I'm sure they hate missing out on the money. After all you're playing a game where your career could end in one bad play.

But these guys are so competitive I really think their #1 concern is the competition. Some players could be making more in Russia. They prefer the NHL. I'm sure some of that is because this is their home, but a lot of it has to be the competition. How often do we hear the players talking about that? They want to play the best of the best and show they belong. They want to win it all. Players give up money all the time to go to a contender to hold that cup.

Most of those players have made their money though. I do think the money side of things has some impact, competitiveness might be more substantial, but don't forget they feel undervalued and underpaid as well.
 

Chance on Chance

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I'm sure they hate missing out on the money. After all you're playing a game where your career could end in one bad play.

But these guys are so competitive I really think their #1 concern is the competition. Some players could be making more in Russia. They prefer the NHL. I'm sure some of that is because this is their home, but a lot of it has to be the competition. How often do we hear the players talking about that? They want to play the best of the best and show they belong. They want to win it all. Players give up money all the time to go to a contender to hold that cup.

I would say they're treated better here too. Nice hotels and a lot of teams have their own plane. I heard some of the khl planes are still bad even after that happened.
 

HTT3*

Guest
Think how much money their missing out on. That's gotta be maddening to them

When I was 21 I took a job that paid <$5hr and worked my butt off. The guys there who worked 12+ years were earning $24+ hr and worked half as hard and got 4 weeks paid vacation while i got 0.

I guess that's what happens when you're the newb. Same thing can be applied to this forum. I have under 30 posts and a lot of members with 1000+ post counts tell me I should try watching the Red Wings play once in awhile. I don't react to those comments because I have not missed a Red Wings game in 31 years. My honeymoon I watched hockey, the day my daughter was born i watched hockey, the day after my fathers funeral I watched hockey, the day of my divorce I watched hockey... it's what I enjoy.

That said, I wasn't disgruntled and worked less hard because I felt screwed, I worked harder to get up through the ranks faster than they did :laugh:

People here think its acceptable if Nyquist pouts and gives up, I say *******, man up and earn it!
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
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When I was 21 I took a job that paid <$5hr and worked my butt off. The guys there who worked 12+ years were earning $24+ hr and worked half as hard and got 4 weeks paid vacation while i got 0.

I guess that's what happens when you're the newb. Same thing can be applied to this forum. I have under 30 posts and a lot of members with 1000+ post counts tell me I should try watching the Red Wings play once in awhile. I don't react to those comments because I have not missed a Red Wings game in 31 years. My honeymoon I watched hockey, the day after my fathers funeral I watched hockey, the day of my divorce I watched hockey... it's what I enjoy.

That said, I wasn't disgruntled and worked less hard because I felt screwed, I worked harder to get up through the ranks faster than they did :laugh:

People here think its acceptable if Nyquist pouts and gives up, I say *******, man up and earn it!

Nyquist hasn't pouted yet that I can remember, if the point was he had an off game, so did the large majority of his teammates from what I gather. He also more than likely wasn't nearly as embarrassing as Sammy and Cleary two nights ago. You know because he can still skate and keep the puck on his stick for more than a second. Would have to watch the game, another interesting point would be that he has to play with the AHL linemates while making his case this time almost to handicap him. Funny they talk about finding Franzen a partner in crime, you know what Wings organizational players have looked best with him in their cameos. Nyquist and Zetterberg, i.e the two players Babcock keeps him farthest away from, why I will never figure out.

Also on Nyquist him and Tatar are dynamite together, but are being kept apart. You can conspiracy theory all you like and I will here, they are doing this so it looks easier when they have to send him down to start the season in the AHL. Good news is after two games in the NHL this year he cannot go back, so hopefully he gets called up quickly and this nightmare ends. Even then Babcock needs to start playing these guys together, they are awesome together and understand each others games.
 

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