Post-Game Talk: SENS in Carolina, Wednesday night 7PM

[Bileur]

What would constitue an acceptable loss to you?

The things you listed are things every team does when they lose games. If we don't do those things, we probably win the game.

It's almost like saying "I would have accepted a loss if we had outscored the opponent". It just doesn't happen.

Edit: For example, if Korpi had shut the door yesterday after we made it 3-3, then won in a SO, Canes fans would be saying similar things about the Canes:

-Wasn't ready to start the game, slow 1st period
-Bad goaltending on Stutzle's goal
-Irresponsible with the puck leading to too many odd man rushes against, including a short handed goal against
-Took too many penalties
-Rod didn't make adjustments after DJ shook his lines up leading to the 2 quick goals in the 3rd.

Edit #2: The other funny thing is that a common complain last season was "DJ wasn't prepared, didn't have the boys ready to start the game on time". Even Sportsnet was talking about how the Sens would have to weather the storm for the first 10 minutes last night. As it turned out, it was the Canes who had to weather our storm. I'm pretty sure we were up 6-0 in shots at one point, and were plain dominant.

While a loss would still be annoying, it seems pretty obvious that seeing fewer dumb selfish penalties would have been preferable.

Losing puck battles and getting beat for a goal isn’t ideal and I agree it’s unavoidable. Seeing the team play more disciplined in its own end would have been preferable.

Having a consistent performance throughout the game is possible even when you’re outmatched in skill. We’ve seen sens teams that were vastly outmatched in talent but that played a disciplined game both in terms of penalties and defensive responsibility.

Yes those are all things that leads to losing games for other teams as well.

They’re also things that when they occur regularly, year over year, lead to changes in management and coaching staff.

You saw two quick goals against Carolina and then you saw them lock it back in and refocus. You saw two goals in the third by Carolina and Ottawa lost its head and took dumb penalties. Sure they’re young, but this has to improve. Now. Time for slow progression is over, the sens have the team to go to the playoffs.

Why is it bad for fans to want to see improvement in areas of weakness from previous iterations of the team?

 

[Cosmix]

Fun fact. It's too early to say we are having a slow start.

Define "start"!

Could it be the first 10% or 8 games of the season?

 

[swiftwin]

Having a consistent performance throughout the game is possible even when you’re outmatched in skill. We’ve seen sens teams that were vastly outmatched in talent but that played a disciplined game both in terms of penalties and defensive responsibility.

You're looking at it from only one angle. You have to remember there are two teams on the ice. Were we inconsistent, or were the Canes inconsistent? The argument could be made that the Canes were the ones who were inconsistent in the game. They started the game slow and unprepared. Then when they got the 3-1 lead, they took their foot off the gas, only to put it back on when it was 3-3. Maybe we were consistent the whole game, and the Canes were the ones who were inconsistent.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

That same Patrick Lalime who is 1st in GAA in the modern era in playoffs and 8th all time in save %? I will not stand for Lalime slander!

Lol, well, he had an up and down time in Ottawa with some fond memories included. He has a place in Sens history, but pretty hard to hide from that Leafs game 7 debacle though. I definitely smashed some shit that night.

 

[Bileur]

You're looking at it from only one angle. You have to remember there are two teams on the ice. Were we inconsistent, or were the Canes inconsistent? The argument could be made that the Canes were the ones who were inconsistent in the game. They started the game slow and unprepared. Then when they got the 3-1 lead, they took their foot off the gas, only to put it back on when it was 3-3. Maybe we were consistent the whole game, and the Canes were the ones who were inconsistent.

No, I’m not.

I’m looking at it from an angle of accountability.

You can’t control who you face, you can’t control how they perform. You can only control how you prepare and how you perform.

To be accountable you have to be willing to look at your own performance and give an honest, clear eyed evaluation of what you did.

Carolina is an excellent team top to bottom, that doesn’t mean you throw up your hands and just accept that you were destined to lose.

 

[LiseL]

Leaf fan coming in peace but what’s the point of signing Tarasenko if he’s just going to be in a bottom 6 role? The whole point of getting him would be to put up some big goals. I’d move Batherson down to Tarasenko’s line or put Tarasenko on the first line. Stutzle can feed Tarasenko. Just my 2 cents. The more Tarasenko scores the more you’re going to get from him at the deadline if you become sellers

Leaf fan coming in peace but what’s the point of signing Tarasenko if he’s just going to be in a bottom 6 role? The whole point of getting him would be to put up some big goals. I’d move Batherson down to Tarasenko’s line or put Tarasenko on the first line. Stutzle can feed Tarasenko. Just my 2 cents. The more Tarasenko scores the more you’re going to get from him at the deadline if you become sellers

And let him play on the right wing where he's played his entire career. Putting him on the left with an AHL centre is not the recipe for success.

 

[swiftwin]

No, I’m not.

I’m looking at it from an angle of accountability.

You can’t control who you face, you can’t control how they perform. You can only control how you prepare and how you perform.

To be accountable you have to be willing to look at your own performance and give an honest, clear eyed evaluation of what you did.

Carolina is an excellent team top to bottom, that doesn’t mean you throw up your hands and just accept that you were destined to lose.

Exactly the point I'm making! You can only control how you prepare and how you perform.

You can perform consistently throughout the whole game, but if your opponent performs better in some parts of the game and worse in some parts of the game, it will look like you're performing better in some parts of the game and worse in some parts of the game relative to your opponent. It's a zero sum game. My point is that we don't know if we were the inconsistent team or the Canes were the inconsistent team last night.

It doesn't mean you throw up your hands and just accept that you're destined to lose. It just means you need to trust the process and try to be even keel and consistent as possible and <insert other hockey cliché here>. Sometimes you will play well and lose (either luck or just playing against a better team), sometimes you will play poorly and win (either luck or just playing against a worse team). But if you have a good enough team, and you believe in the team and the process, you should come out ahead in the long run.

 

[JD1]

You're unable to see this player play without massive bias. So it's hard to take your opinion of him seriously.

On his own, without significant pressure, did he f*** that play up and it was in our net seconds later? Am I mistaken on what I saw?

I'm very aware of what he's capable of doing. Like yourself I've watched him since his WJC days.

But he also did what he did and it led directly to a goal against. And there was no reason for that to have happened. And it can't happen. It just can't. If that's a 875k rookie on an ELC it's "take a seat son". It just can't keep happening....but it does.

 

[Butchy Dakkar]

Korpisalo looked awful on that 4th goal. I'm hesitant to pin any blame on the others when you're waving your glove around and whiffing like you're Patrick Lalime. Back breaker after the team fought back.

My bold prediction this year is Forsberg proves as the #1 by midseason.

I’m pretty sure it was deflected and changed directions right into the top corner. They couldn’t tell on the broadcast but it looked like it was deflected to me. It was a Hail Mary save attempt when his body was already committed to something else. It looked awkward for sure though

 

[LiseL]

Why would 2 wingers be playing their off side?

You can move Bath over to LW and have Tarasenko as RW. Bath has already said he would be happy to move over to LW. Worst case have Tarasenko play LW until you get Pinto in the lineup which I assume will be within a week

I mean you signed the guy. If you can't figure out handed-ness before signing him to a 5 million dollar deal only to play him on the 3rd line is exactly the same type of poor management and coaching we have seen the past few years


Again, you are not rolling the 3 lines equally when Chartier is in the middle. Either Batherson is going to get less ice or tarasenko is. There is no reason why both can't be in the top 6 giving us the best chance to win. Guaranteed there will be two lines that are being run out there the most until pinto/Norris are in the lineup

Giroux has played LW with Philly and said he was willing to do so now. So why not put Tarasenko on the RW on the 1st or 2nd line?


Tkachuk-Stutzle-Batherson
Giroux-Greig-Tarasenko

or Batherson on 2nd line and Tarasenko on the 1st. I have not seen these combos.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Giroux has played LW with Philly and said he was willing to do so now. So why not put Tarasenko on the RW on the 1st or 2nd line?


Tkachuk-Stutzle-Batherson
Giroux-Greig-Tarasenko

or Batherson on 2nd line and Tarasenko on the 1st. I have not seen these combos.

Makes too much sense. Batherson is playing well.. and is being dragged down..

Joseph has played well but he is an energy player and doesn't help much in the top 6. Play him on an energy line.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It was more

pretty sure it was deflected and changed directions right into the top corner. They couldn’t tell on the broadcast but it looked like it was deflected to me. It was a Hail Mary save attempt when his body was already committed to something else. It looked awkward for sure though

I was asking that in the GDT last night but nobody weighed in. They did acknowledge it on the broadcast and then backtracked, but didn't spend a lot of time on it.

I watched it like 10 times over and imo it didn't change direction, but I'm open to potentially being wrong. It did look awkward reaching across the body with the glove hand.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I was asking that in the GDT last night but nobody weighed in. They did acknowledge it on the broadcast and then backtracked, but didn't spend a lot of time on it.

I watched it like 10 times over and imo it didn't change direction, but I'm open to potentially being wrong. It did look awkward reaching across the body with the glove hand.

They looked at it but nothing conclusive is what I gathered

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

They looked at it but nothing conclusive is what I gathered

That sounds about right.

Water under the bridge either way, just felt like that was where we lost the game. I could sense it and started multi tasking after that goal.

 

[Bileur]

Exactly the point I'm making! You can only control how you prepare and how you perform.

You can perform consistently throughout the whole game, but if your opponent performs better in some parts of the game and worse in some parts of the game, it will look like you're performing better in some parts of the game and worse in some parts of the game relative to your opponent. It's a zero sum game. My point is that we don't know if we were the inconsistent team or the Canes were the inconsistent team last night.

It doesn't mean you throw up your hands and just accept that you're destined to lose. It just means you need to trust the process and try to be even keel and consistent as possible and <insert other hockey cliché here>. Sometimes you will play well and lose (either luck or just playing against a better team), sometimes you will play poorly and win (either luck or just playing against a worse team). But if you have a good enough team, and you believe in the team and the process, you should come out ahead in the long run.

It’s the opposite of the point you’re making.

You are saying when we’re bad it’s because they’re good. That avoids looking at the sens part in the result.

That’s not accountability. That’s not recognizing you can improve your own performance and impact the imbalance in performance.

You can’t just blindly trust a process, you should be turning over every stone looking for ways to improve.

If you fail a test you don’t just study the same way next time and hope it goes better. That’s a plan for a really long undergrad.

What would constitue an acceptable loss to you?

The things you listed are things every team does when they lose games. If we don't do those things, we probably win the game.

It's almost like saying "I would have accepted a loss if we had outscored the opponent". It just doesn't happen.

Edit: For example, if Korpi had shut the door yesterday after we made it 3-3, then won in a SO, Canes fans would be saying similar things about the Canes:

-Wasn't ready to start the game, slow 1st period
-Bad goaltending on Stutzle's goal
-Irresponsible with the puck leading to too many odd man rushes against, including a short handed goal against
-Took too many penalties
-Rod didn't make adjustments after DJ shook his lines up leading to the 2 quick goals in the 3rd.

Edit #2: The other funny thing is that a common complain last season was "DJ wasn't prepared, didn't have the boys ready to start the game on time". Even Sportsnet was talking about how the Sens would have to weather the storm for the first 10 minutes last night. As it turned out, it was the Canes who had to weather our storm. I'm pretty sure we were up 6-0 in shots at one point, and were plain dominant.

The bolded is an example. You’re locking in on the 5-10 minutes where the sens really did take it to Carolina and brushing off the majority of the game where the sens were outshot 24-42.

You’re also making up hypotheticals about what could have happened to show how Carolina fans might have reacted instead of addressing our team’s mistakes.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I agree that Belleville is the most likely scenario for Greig given the salary cap room situation and him not being subject to waivers; however, If Greig shows that he is better than any one of our third liners, he might be retained if roster salary cap room can be made available.


Shouldn't "randomly" be "foolishly"?

Fault to plan plan to fail and all that

 

[swiftwin]

It’s the opposite of the point you’re making.

You are saying when we’re bad it’s because they’re good. That avoids looking at the sens part in the result.

That's literally not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is there's a 50/50 split. The Sens only control 50% of what happens in a game, the other team controls the other 50%. So, when you say the Sens are inconsistent, what you're saying is BOTH teams in the game are inconsistent.

So, for example, when you see a team dominate a stretch of a game, is it because team A is playing well, or is it because team B is playing poorly? Fans always assume that their team is always the one playing well/poorly, and the other team has no role in this, like they're some video game boss.

That’s not accountability. That’s not recognizing you can improve your own performance and impact the imbalance in performance.

You can’t just blindly trust a process, you should be turning over every stone looking for ways to improve.

If you fail a test you don’t just study the same way next time and hope it goes better. That’s a plan for a really long undergrad.

What??? Why are you putting words in my mouth? Improvement is part of the process. Why wouldn't it be? What kind of absurd rant is this?

The bolded is an example. You’re locking in on the 5-10 minutes where the sens really did take it to Carolina and brushing off the majority of the game where the sens were outshot 24-42.

You’re also making up hypotheticals about what could have happened to show how Carolina fans might have reacted instead of addressing our team’s mistakes.

Wat.... Again with the straw man arguments...

Way to completely miss the point. I'm not brushing anything off. I was merely making an observation that fans always say stuff like "The team is not prepared or ready to start the game on time again, this is always an issue", "The team is having another classic 2nd period again, this is always an issue", "The team is always having a bad 3rd period and is incapable of protecting a lead / mounting a comeback".

It's ridiculous. You would think we were the last place team if we're always bad in every period. The fact is, games always go through ebbs and flows that are 50% caused by the Sens and 50% caused by the opposition. Sometimes they happen in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd period.

 

[LiseL]

Same ole deal this team look at the shots they have given up after 2 lol

They are lucky they are only down 1

Can’t wait for a coach that teaches how to play better defensively.

A la Jacques Martin style. Also, we have enough talent to not always dump in and chase. Also tired of the one and done plays. Can't they shoot the puck at the net in such as way that our players can either access the rebounds or keep the puck in the O-zone? They shoot so hard and never recoup the puck but Carolina plays in such a way that they are in our zone for what seems like hours.

 

[GCK]

They looked at it but nothing conclusive is what I gathered

It definitely changed directions but it was way out so plenty of time to adjust.

 

[Tragedy]

Lol, well, he had an up and down time in Ottawa with some fond memories included. He has a place in Sens history, but pretty hard to hide from that Leafs game 7 debacle though. I definitely smashed some shit that night.

I hate how Lalime takes all the shit for that series. The Sens were shut out 3 times!

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I hate how Lalime takes all the shit for that series. The Sens were shut out 3 times!

I hear you. For the series and previous series', it wasn't just Lalime and the Leafs just had the teams number. Big part of them having our number though was Belfour/Joseph being as good as they were against us which probably made Lalime seem worse in contrast than he really was.

Big stage though in pro sports, especially as a goaltender, and you live and die on those big moments like a game 7. Those were pretty giant woofs by Lalime that of course got all the attention at the time like big game losing gaffs usually do.

 

[LiseL]

Good thing they don't play again until Saturday so they can watch tape and change absolutely nothing.

The ones who should be watching tape are the coaches to learn how to set up a defensive structure that works because what they've been doing isn't. Most of them are terrible away from the puck when it occurs for an extended period of time. If there is a system in place to handle this but the players don't follow it, well, they've lost the room.

Yes, last 2 goals were soft but if our goalie is continuously exposed, we can't expect them to stand on their heads to compensate for bad defensive coverage and little puck possession. Whenever the opponent has an extended attack, they make dumb decisions. If they had a solid defensive system, they would know what to do in those instances. Clearly, this is not the case.

We also need to get better in F/O circle as they seem lost when they don't have the puck (players, start practicing). Also, need to return to playing as a 5 man unit. Plug up the neutral zone if that's all you can do, but do something.

Also, I want to see a full 60 minute effort at some point.

 

[Bileur]

That's literally not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is there's a 50/50 split. The Sens only control 50% of what happens in a game, the other team controls the other 50%. So, when you say the Sens are inconsistent, what you're saying is BOTH teams in the game are inconsistent.

So, for example, when you see a team dominate a stretch of a game, is it because team A is playing well, or is it because team B is playing poorly? Fans always assume that their team is always the one playing well/poorly, and the other team has no role in this, like they're some video game boss.

I acknowledged the Hurricanes are a good team. They’re a measuring stick game for sure.

Where in this conversation have you considered flaws in the sens 50%? What stake have you identified in the sens performance? You entered the conversation entirely focussed on Carolina.

What??? Why are you putting words in my mouth? Improvement is part of the process. Why wouldn't it be? What kind of absurd rant is this?

Improvement is in theory part of the process, if your process is good.

I’m not convinced our process is good. It’s just one game, and it’s against a great team, but in the 5th year of DJ’s program, after an offseason of hype and more development and maturity from our players, I was hoping more of the « fixables » (like dumb penalties) would be ironed out right off the bat.

Way to completely miss the point. I'm not brushing anything off. I was merely making an observation that fans always say stuff like "The team is not prepared or ready to start the game on time again, this is always an issue", "The team is having another classic 2nd period again, this is always an issue", "The team is always having a bad 3rd period and is incapable of protecting a lead / mounting a comeback".

How is that a straw man?

They started out great yesterday, that has been an issue in the past. Nice to see.

They also did have a bad second period before mounting a comeback and ultimately falling apart.

Maybe fans and media say things repeatedly because they happen repeatedly.

It's ridiculous. You would think we were the last place team if we're always bad in every period. The fact is, games always go through ebbs and flows that are 50% caused by the Sens and 50% caused by the opposition. Sometimes they happen in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd period.

I didn’t say they were bad every period. They had a lot of good moments and overall hung in there with s cup favourite. There were many encouraging signs.

I’m holding space for those encouraging signs at the same time as acknowledging the disappointing ones. Both can coexist.

We just don’t see fandom and team evaluation the same way. That’s fine, board would be very boring otherwise.

 

[LiseL]

Remember when Gustavsson left this team and went to a team that had defensive structure

Exactly.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

The ones who should be watching tape are the coaches to learn how to set up a defensive structure that works because what they've been doing isn't. Most of them are terrible away from the puck when it occurs for an extended period of time. If there is a system in place to handle this but the players don't follow it, well, they've lost the room.

Yes, last 2 goals were soft but if our goalie is continuously exposed, we can't expect them to stand on their heads to compensate for bad defensive coverage and little puck possession. Whenever the opponent has an extended attack, they make dumb decisions. If they had a solid defensive system, they would know what to do in those instances. Clearly, this is not the case.

We also need to get better in F/O circle as they seem lost when they don't have the puck (players, start practicing). Also, need to return to playing as a 5 man unit. Plug up the neutral zone if that's all you can do, but do something.

Also, I want to see a full 60 minute effort at some point.

I don't think they lost because of a lack of defensive structure, I think they lost because they got away from their structure. They defended very very well in the 1st period, through the neutral zone and in their own end. Everyone was well supported, they were winning every puck battle. Then in the 2nd period they made quite a few turnovers in their own end at the blueline and tired themselves out quickly constantly racing back into their own end. They started collapsing to the slot because they kept turning pucks over and chasing the play, they were clearly not skating nearly as well as they were to start the game, because they were tired.

The coaches can try to figure out how to support the breakout better, but the giveaways are the fault of our players who need to be a little more careful with managing the puck.