Post-Game Talk: Sens 5, Habs 1

[SenzZen]

And holy crap was he invisible.

Except for taking a dumb penalty after the whistle.



Still got it!

 

[WhiteLight*]

You've got to be trolling. We are winning without a PPG player, we'll be that much better with a PPG player. Benn and Couture have a lot to accomplish before they can come close to having a career like Spezza.

So? Right now, they're not too far off Spezza. Benn and Couture are 1st line caliber players too.

Ask Stars and Sharks fans if they would make that trade straight up. They would laugh at you.

Even when Spezza isn't contributing offensively, opposing teams will always line up their top D pairing against him. This means our depth has a better chance of scoring.

The top D would line up against Couture/Benn

If the Turris line, Smith line, or OB line have to face their top 4 of other teams consistently, our scoring potential drops the same way we'd like our chances better of having Karlsson and Methot against the Leafs second line than we do against the Kessel line.

Having Karlsson vs the Leafs 2nd line instead of Kessel would be a huge mistake. I every time they match someone else vs Kessel. Maybe that's why Kessel scores so much

We also need veterans on the team to lead our youth if we ever want to win anything. I'll take a 29? yo top 15 league wide centre in his prime as a vet any day. Having a bunch of youth gives you what Edmonton has - fun but chaotic hockey with little hope of winning a cup. Furthermore, with the cap, having all these young players needing pay bumps at the same time isn't ideal as you'll likely end up having to trade some away (leaving you with what we have now, good veteran skill with young guys). And to come full circle you'd be suggesting they trade the older Eberle's/RNH/Yakupovs for more young talent to rinse and repeat without ever being a cup contender because you keep trading the leadership away.

Alfredsson, Phillips, Gonchar, Neil, Michalek. Plenty of vets to go around.

Also, the cap issue is BS. Benn is signed long term. Spezza makes more than those young players, before and likely after their raise.

I'm happy the Sens fans no longer underrate him, no more stupid booing, now all the constant "trade Spezza" are in jest, appreciating the strides he's made defensively, and a consensus on the next captain.

Why even having a thought like trading Spezza for a player who at his best is worse that Spezza at his worst?

I would never boo him. obviously

Just think it would be better for long term if you could return a nice package/player

Are you talking about a 1-for-1 trade? Or Spezza for either Benn + or Couture +?

Straight up

Good trade for Ottawa

He's broken and not that much better than them anyway

Can you all please stop responding to this rambling troll so I don't need to see his posts? It's very discouraging putting someone on your ignore list and then seeing every single one of their posts.

not a troll

I would consider what you do here trolling. You cannot seriously be this clueless. You take our best player and compare him to two players that aren't even in the same ball park. Good job.

Not trolling. Therefore I'm clueless (in your opinion)

Have you considered that maybe you, and all of you, are clueless about Couture and Benn? How much do any of you honestly know about these guys?

"Not even in the same ballpark"... yeah, ok. Keep thinking that. holier than thou mentality

two good games without spezza = team doesnt miss a beat without him.

would you care to provide this team's record in spezza's career in games with and without him MAK, or are you the type of scientist that says I dont get sick without a flu shot, therefore flu shots are a government conspiracy?

No you should take the flu shot


Without Spezza

2012-13: 2-0-0
2011-12: 1-1-0
2010-11: 4-12-4
2009-10: 11-11-0
2007-08: 5-1-0
2006-07: 11-2-2
2005-06: 10-4-0

Sens combined record without Spezza since Spezza has been a point per game: 44-31-6



Sens record with Spezza since he has been a point per game:

2012-13: 3-1-1
2011-12: 40-30-10
2010-11: 28-28-6
2009-10: 33-21-6
2007-08: 38-30-8
2006-07: 37-23-7
2005-06: 42-17-9

Sens combined record with Spezza since Spezza has been a point per game: 221-150-47


Points % without Spezza: 58.0%
Points % with Spezza: 58.5%


The Sens are ever so slightly better with Spezza than without. And the 2010-11 season, where Spezza was absolutely terrific imo, made a HUGE difference. Take out 2010-11, and the Sens record becomes better without Spezza.


So yes, the Sens don't miss a beat when Spezza is out. Half a percent better.

 

[HavlatMach9]

Used to be more fun with advanced statistics, you're lazy now.

My eyes tell me Spezza single handedly forced Ottawa to rebuild after a pitiful performance when he was injured, and neither Couture nor Benn would have stopped it.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Used to be more fun with advanced statistics, you're lazy now.

My eyes tell me Spezza single handedly forced Ottawa to rebuild after a pitiful performance when he was injured, and neither Couture nor Benn would have stopped it.

Took me 20 min to compile that


Don't understand what you mean by Benn and Couture couldn't have stopped it.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Honestly, I think you guys just have absolutely no clue how good Benn and Couture are.

 

[HavlatMach9]

Honestly, I think you guys just have absolutely no clue how good Benn and Couture are.

We Sens fans will remain ignorant and see to it that Spezza is the captain for the next decade.

 

[WhiteLight*]

We Sens fans will remain ignorant and see to it that Spezza is the captain for the next decade.

Bad choice. Karlsson ftw

 

[Berserker*]

Oh right. I forgot the solution is to bring up DD. This will solve all the scoring problems.

No, but if we end up putting Zibby as the 2nd line centre than it could be worthwhile to call up Grant or Dizzy. Both Grant and Dizzy are better suited for and more likely to make an impact on the 4th line than Regin.

 

[Berserker*]

Straight up

Good trade for Ottawa

He's broken and not that much better than them anyway

I could possibly see Benn for Spezza being a good deal. I would still be a tentative because there is still a lot of uncertainty around whether he can be a 1st line centre or simply a 1st line winger. We can't really afford to trade Spezza unless we are getting a number 1 centre back.

As for Couture, San Jose we need to add for me to be interested. In terms of a 1-for-1 deal I would think that San Jose would be getting the far better deal.

 

[God Says No]

No, but if we end up putting Zibby as the 2nd line centre than it could be worthwhile to call up Grant or Dizzy. Both Grant and Dizzy are better suited for and more likely to make an impact on the 4th line than Regin.

that's debatable.

 

[Berserker*]

It's been 7 games. What's Doughty's and Weber's excuses? There both expected to put up more pts than Regin and have none. How bout Briere, Haggelin, Kreider, Jussi Jokinen? Small sample is small.


Really depends on your expectations. You should not expect Regin to be a consistant offensive threat. If he was, he already be a top 6 guy. If you expect him to pace in the 30-35 range, you can expect slumps. This is just that.

Edit: As Holdurbreathe mentioned, he hasn't played a lot in the last 2 years, some time and reps will improve his play.

Ya it is a small sample size but Regin hasn't even been creating good scoring chances. There is nothing in his play this season that would indicate that he could take over the role of 2nd line center for the season.

Aside from that Regin is a pretty mediocre bottom sixer as well. MacLean doesn't like him as a winger (probably because he isn't strong enough long the boards) and he isn't better than Smith or O'Brien as a 3rd or 4th line center. He doesn't have much of a physical dimension to his game and he hasn't been all that great defensively either. I've noticed that he has a hard time getting the puck out of our defensive zone if we are being forechecked hard, and if he does manage to get it out he tends to ice it.

Now I know that this has only been his play this season, but the Senators took a risk by re-signing him. With a bunch of prospects pushing to showcase what they can do at this level and his mediocre play thus far I wouldn't at all be surprised to see him scratched to give one of our prospects an opportunity.

 

[Berserker*]

that's debatable.

Well it is speculative on my part. In some sense I was basing it on the performance of Zibanejad on the 4th line. Grant and Dziurzynski (while clearly not as offensively talented as Zibanejad) are both big, physical, fast, strong defensively and drive hard to the net. If the Senators were to take Zibanejad off of the 4th line and move him to the second line, Dizzy and Grant are more likely to fill that role vacated by Zibby than Regin.

 

[VikingKarlsson]

We Sens fans will remain ignorant and see to it that Spezza is the captain for the next decade.

the guy is no leader and would never be able to bring a Stanley cup to Ottawa. Waste of a decade.

 

[Icelevel]

i'm all for eventually replacing regin with grant.

 

[Novak Djokovic]

Most of the wins without Spezza came in the 05-08 era. That was when our offense was relatively stable and experienced.

 

[God Says No]

Well it is speculative on my part. In some sense I was basing it on the performance of Zibanejad on the 4th line. Grant and Dziurzynski (while clearly not as offensively talented as Zibanejad) are both big, physical, fast, strong defensively and drive hard to the net. If the Senators were to take Zibanejad off of the 4th line and move him to the second line, Dizzy and Grant are more likely to fill that role vacated by Zibby than Regin.

that's not a true 4th line. the greening - smith - neil line is closer to a prototypical 4th line than anything. so if any of those guys go down then yes i can see dd or grant come in.

 

[Berserker*]

that's not a true 4th line. the greening - smith - neil line is closer to a prototypical 4th line than anything. so if any of those guys go down then yes i can see dd or grant come in.

Our "4th line" last game was Zibanejad-O'Brien-Condra before that it was O'Brien-Regin-Condra. Yeah they may play more minutes than some other lines if they are having a good game (and some other lines aren't performing as well) but they are still considered the 4th line.

With Spezza out, we will need to get reliable offense out of our top six. Regin isn't really a reliable point producer so that 2nd line center spot will likely go to either Da Costa or Zibanejad. If it goes to Zibanejad then Regin gets demoted to the 4th line with O'Brien and Condra. Consdiering the fact that that line has been arguably more effective without him than with him, he could be scratched in favor of a player/ prospect more suited to that 4th line role. Ideally that spot would be given to either Hoffman or Stone, but considering that both of them are injured they will look elsewhere. The other options to fill that 4th line LW spot are Daugavins, Grant and Dziurzynski. Seeing how effective the 4th line was with Zibby, all three (based on playing style) are more likely to bring a similar skill set as Zibanejad to that line than Regin. That is why two prospects (Grant and Dziurzynski) who arguably have a higher probability of sticking with the organization long term than either Daugavins or Regin may be given a chance to show what they can do at this level.

With the loss of Spezza every line needs to be performing. We won't be able to win sustainably if we have three lines rolling and creating chances and one line just killing time on the clock. Last night Regin's line (aside from Silfverberg who IMO had one of his best games so far) was basically just killing time; they weren't doing a good job at creating scoring chances. We can't really afford to have Regin (or even Lattendresse for that matter) trying to find his game out there. We need players to step up and make an impact nearly every shift. Regin and Lattendresse are arguably the only two players last night that didn't really step up their game.

 

[YNWA14]

You're talking about a team missing Spezza that had Redden, Chara, Vermette, Fisher, Havlat, Prime Phillips, Prime Alfie and Prime Heatley vs. a team with old man Alfie...old man Phillips, Turris and Karlsson.

This guy will really work at his trolling.

 

[MiscBrah]

I don't get why anyone even entertains his ideas...

Huge waste of time and resources.

 

[Quantas]

MacLean on Regin & Latendresse

With almost everyone knocking Regin for his play, and I admit it's mostly deserved, I thought I'd post this comment by MacLean on Regin and Latendresse. I think it's worth remembering how long these two guys have been out.

MacLean, on the struggling Guillaume Latendresse: "I think we have to have a lot of patience with someone that hasn't played for two years, through the injuries. Six games is not really a long time ... I know it's a 48-game schedule, and all of that is a factor. But we need him to find his game, and we're working towards that. I think he's finding that in two years, the league has picked up some speed. It's an adjustment not only he's making, but Peter Regin is making at the same time. Both have missed significant time, and they're trying to get back and find their game. It's going to take a little patience.

 

[aragorn]

Well it is speculative on my part. In some sense I was basing it on the performance of Zibanejad on the 4th line. Grant and Dziurzynski (while clearly not as offensively talented as Zibanejad) are both big, physical, fast, strong defensively and drive hard to the net. If the Senators were to take Zibanejad off of the 4th line and move him to the second line, Dizzy and Grant are more likely to fill that role vacated by Zibby than Regin.

I would love to see that & have been talking about just that for weeks but I doubt Maclean & Murray do it.

that's not a true 4th line. the greening - smith - neil line is closer to a prototypical 4th line than anything. so if any of those guys go down then yes i can see dd or grant come in.

What would be a prototypical 4th line would be if DD is placed with Smith & Neil. Grant could be the 3rd line centre with Greening & JOB on RW or Grant could play RW. However, my guess is that Maclean is more likely to use the guys that are already in Ottawa & ready to play & they have Spezza's roster spot already taken by Zibanejad.

If Murray could make a deal & move a couple of forwards (Daugavins, Latendresse, or Regin) that would make room but I doubt they do that just yet. I'm guessing they go with Turris, Regin, Smith & JOB as the four centres & surround them with the available forwards. I thought from day one that Greening would eventually replace Latendresse.

Greening - Turris - Alfredsson
Silfverberg - Regin - Michalek
Latendresse - Z. Smith - Neil
Zibanejad - JOB - Condra/Daugavins

To Washington: Latendresse LW, Filatov LW or Regin C & Condra RW
To Ottawa: Tom Wilson RW

- Zibanejad replaces Latendresse, Grant replaces Regin or Condra & Filatov, who cares?
- by the time Wilson is ready for the NHL, Neil could be ready to be replaced.

 

[God Says No]

Our "4th line" last game was Zibanejad-O'Brien-Condra before that it was O'Brien-Regin-Condra. Yeah they may play more minutes than some other lines if they are having a good game (and some other lines aren't performing as well) but they are still considered the 4th line.

With Spezza out, we will need to get reliable offense out of our top six. Regin isn't really a reliable point producer so that 2nd line center spot will likely go to either Da Costa or Zibanejad. If it goes to Zibanejad then Regin gets demoted to the 4th line with O'Brien and Condra. Consdiering the fact that that line has been arguably more effective without him than with him, he could be scratched in favor of a player/ prospect more suited to that 4th line role. Ideally that spot would be given to either Hoffman or Stone, but considering that both of them are injured they will look elsewhere. The other options to fill that 4th line LW spot are Daugavins, Grant and Dziurzynski. Seeing how effective the 4th line was with Zibby, all three (based on playing style) are more likely to bring a similar skill set as Zibanejad to that line than Regin. That is why two prospects (Grant and Dziurzynski) who arguably have a higher probability of sticking with the organization long term than either Daugavins or Regin may be given a chance to show what they can do at this level.

With the loss of Spezza every line needs to be performing. We won't be able to win sustainably if we have three lines rolling and creating chances and one line just killing time on the clock. Last night Regin's line (aside from Silfverberg who IMO had one of his best games so far) was basically just killing time; they weren't doing a good job at creating scoring chances. We can't really afford to have Regin (or even Lattendresse for that matter) trying to find his game out there. We need players to step up and make an impact nearly every shift. Regin and Lattendresse are arguably the only two players last night that didn't really step up their game.

we are talking about two different things. you consider a 4th line according to minutes played. i consider the 4th line by its role. they could be called the 4th line even though their minutes might not reflect that.

stereotypically in the past a 4th line was mostly made up of fighters, grinders, guys hard to play against, etc. this is exactly what the greening - smith - neil line is. and this is what dd is. thusly he will only be called up if a couple of these guys get injured. (i say a couple because j.o.b. could step in that line as well without a callup)

regin is as much as a reliable point producer right now as dacosta or zib. you can't tell me zib with his 2 games is as reliable to produce as much as regin.

as for aragorn's post, i won't even respond. that guy is a broken record.

 

[Punchbowl]

To Washington: Latendresse LW, Filatov LW or Regin C & Condra RW
To Ottawa: Tom Wilson RW

- Zibanejad replaces Latendresse, Grant replaces Regin or Condra & Filatov, who cares?
- by the time Wilson is ready for the NHL, Neil could be ready to be replaced.

Not nearly enough value for Tom Wilson. You frequently lambaste guys like Filatov, Regin, and Condra, then suggest they're valuable enough to acquire a young, 1st round, power-forward prospect?


The Latendresse + Filatov deal would be the equivalent of dealing Ceci for a lesser Troy Brouwer + a disinterested Russian in the KHL. If the Caps were after Lats, they would have signed him in the off-season, so the centrepiece of the trade is Filatov?

I don't think so.

Regin + Condra? Caps fans might be a little insulted by that proposal. Regin's value is at an all-time low (he has barely played over the past two seasons) and Condra at his peak is a defensively responsible, offensively questionable 3rd line winger. The two of them hold more value to OTT than on the free market.


A replacement for Neil can be found internally or through free agency. Guys like Wilson are hoping to fit the Lucic prototype, not the Chris Neil mold.

 

[pepty]

You're talking about a team missing Spezza that had Redden, Chara, Vermette, Fisher, Havlat, Prime Phillips, Prime Alfie and Prime Heatley vs. a team with old man Alfie...old man Phillips, Turris and Karlsson.

This guy will really work at his trolling.

Chara and Havlat weren't on the team then.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

To Washington: Latendresse LW, Filatov LW or Regin C & Condra RW
To Ottawa: Tom Wilson RW

Teams don't usually trade recently drafted 1st rounders for dime a dozen players.