Post-Game Talk: Senators @ Laughs

[Berserker*]

Kassian had 6 shifts less than Orr last night, that's 2 shifts a period. The Leafs also had Devane in the lineup and he took 9 shifts just like Kassian. Basically Toronto was double shifting all the forwards to work around 2 enforcers that weren't taking regular shifts. Didn't seem to effect Toronto's flow or momentum that much. Not sure why we're complaining about 1 in Ottawa. Like others have said, defense was our problem yesterday. People hating on fighters is annoying. As it currently stands, whether you're for or against fighting, there's a role for fighting in hockey. Unless you want Zibanejad or Da Costa filling that role, stop complaining.

I'm one of the biggest fighting advocates around here, so I wasn't trying to argue that we shouldn't have a heavyweight enforcer. My point was that I question how effective Kassian is for the role that he is in. As a heavyweight, he isn't really a feared fighter or big hitter, and he doesn't agitate so he isn't much of a shift disturber. In the role that he is in, for his lack of hockey skills, he should at least be very ****ing intimidating. The opposition should be scared to play against him.

That is why I said I wish we had a prime Probert, Brashear or Simon. All three were very scary players, dominant fighters, big hitters and made their presence felt each shift. Aside from that they could each put up around 20-40 points per season. Those are the types of heavies that could take a regular shift and were very much impact players.

 

[Micklebot]

I'm one of the biggest fighting advocates around here, so I wasn't trying to argue that we shouldn't have a heavyweight enforcer. My point was that I question how effective Kassian is for the role that he is in. As a heavyweight, he isn't really a feared fighter or big hitter, and he doesn't agitate so he isn't much of a shift disturber. In the role that he is in, for his lack of hockey skills, he should at least be very ****ing intimidating. The opposition should be scared to play against him.

That is why I said I wish we had a prime Probert, Brashear or Simon. All three were very scary players, dominant fighters, big hitters and made their presence felt each shift. Aside from that they could each put up around 20-40 points per season. Those are the types of heavies that could take a regular shift and were very much impact players.

Got it. So how do we get Lucic?

 

[h2]

I'm one of the biggest fighting advocates around here, so I wasn't trying to argue that we shouldn't have a heavyweight enforcer. My point was that I question how effective Kassian is for the role that he is in. As a heavyweight, he isn't really a feared fighter or big hitter, and he doesn't agitate so he isn't much of a shift disturber. In the role that he is in, for his lack of hockey skills, he should at least be very ****ing intimidating. The opposition should be scared to play against him.

That is why I said I wish we had a prime Probert, Brashear or Simon. All three were very scary players, dominant fighters, big hitters and made their presence felt each shift. Aside from that they could each put up around 20-40 points per season. Those are the types of heavies that could take a regular shift and were very much impact players.

I can agree with this, but I'm also just 'fine' with Kassian. If we can switch for a Probert/Brashear/Simon type, I'm down tho.

 

[Berserker*]

I'm not refusing to admit that fighting is a thing in today's NHL... that much is obvious.

I was more playing Devil's Advocate. Let's say you had a team with tough enough guys (as in: doesn't get pushed around on the ice, makes the tough plays in the corners, throws hits, etc...), but they just refused to fight. No stage fighting, no fisticuffs (except for the rare "heat of the moment" stuff).

Like, what would happen if the other team's goon wanted to fight, and everyone just refused him? If he ends up picking a fight without consent on the other side, he gets the instigator. If he doesn't drop them, nothing happens.

That's what Neil does and he did it this game. I think after we wee up 4-2, Orr started to yap with Neil off the faceoff and looked like he was trying to goad him into a fight. Neil was smart enough to refuse the invitation in order to prevent the risk of a momentum shift.

But then again, a good enforcer forces the issue. He doesn't ask someone to fight, he makes them fight through his actions. Neil is also a perfect example of this because when he wants to get a fight to shift the momentum, he usually looks for a huge hit which in turn forces the opposition into a fight in order to stick up for their team mate.

 

[X66]

Kassian is an adequate heavy weight. Should we let Chris Phillips and Patrick Wiercioch handle the fighting and get kicked out for 20 minutes during game play again? Not sure why he's getting so much hate.



A waste of a roster spot against a team that regularly dresses Orr/McLaren/Fraser? Seems like a hypocritical statement to me. Kassian doesn't hurt or benefit the lineup in terms of play. He's an adequate enforcer that's there in case things go down. As for Devane, we shall see.. he does have 3 goals at the professional level..

Mclaren is ass, no doubt about that. However, Orr isn't a liability on the ice, nor does he take dumb penalties. He also is a physical presence on the forecheck. Fraser is a good Dmen for the 6th spot and he plays a lot on the PK.

 

[Qward]

Kassian is an adequate heavy weight. Should we let Chris Phillips and Patrick Wiercioch handle the fighting and get kicked out for 20 minutes during game play again? Not sure why he's getting so much hate.

I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing.


My point is that Kassian is a deterrent. The fact that he was in the line up reduces the chance that a player like Orr is going to do something stupid because he knows that he will have to answer to Kassian next shift.

 

[h2]

I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing.


My point is that Kassian is a deterrent. The fact that he was in the line up reduces the chance that a player like Orr is going to do something stupid because he knows that he will have to answer to Kassian next shift.

I wasn't sure if you were praising or critiquing Kassian initially. However I think we're on the same page.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Mclaren is ass, no doubt about that. However, Orr isn't a liability on the ice, nor does he take dumb penalties. He also is a physical presence on the forecheck. Fraser is a good Dmen for the 6th spot and he plays a lot on the PK.

Fraser is a pretty terrible Dman imo. Terrible one on one, gets lost in front of his own net, can't move the puck, gets beat b smaller players along the boards. I wouldn't even want him as a 7th D...

Speaking of bad D, how about Corvo? This guy has completely lost 'it'. He doesn't bring much offense anymore. Thank christ we have some young D ready for the call.

 

[Milan the God*]

Remember how much leaf fans like to tell us we hate them and they don't care about us? And in our papers we always talk about them and not us?

Head over to the Toronto sun website

 

[Berserker*]

Got it. So how do we get Lucic?

I'm not quite sure how to develop a Probert, Brashear or Simon type of player. Actually I wanted to ask BonkTastic that because I think he may have seen them early in their career and may be more familiar with how they were developed.

I think what you have to do is draft a player who has that combination of size, toughness and skill and try and develop them. But after seeing Lucic pan out, it appears that most teams are willing to part ways with a fairly high pick in order to get a similar player. For example Kyle Clifford was drafted in the 2nd round and both Zack Kassian and Tom Wilson were top 15 picks.

The other option is to take a tougher player and try and really develop them into a well rounded player, which is what I think they are trying to do with Kramer.

Or maybe sign a free agent player from juniors or the NCAA, who was a top fighter at some point and try to develop them into a full time player. In regards to that strategy, I am trying to keep an eye on Woodruff Hudson who was a top heavyweight in the USHL and now is off at St Lawrence University in the NCAA. If he develops well enough during his time in the NCAA, then he could be a good free agent to sign.

 

[Berserker*]

Fraser is a pretty terrible Dman imo. Terrible one on one, gets lost in front of his own net, can't move the puck, gets beat b smaller players along the boards. I wouldn't even want him as a 7th D...

Speaking of bad D, how about Corvo? This guy has completely lost 'it'. He doesn't bring much offense anymore. Thank christ we have some young D ready for the call.

Corvo looked really bad yesterday. For a guy that is poor defensively, he is really soft in our own zone. He actually looks scared to take a hit, which in turn makes him cough up the puck or lose battles along the boards. Aside from that, it doesn't look like his offensive game is anywhere near what it was back in 2007.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I'm not quite sure how to develop a Probert, Brashear or Simon type of player. Actually I wanted to ask BonkTastic that because I think he may have seen them early in their career and may be more familiar with how they were developed.

I think what you have to do is draft a player who has that combination of size, toughness and skill and try and develop them. But after seeing Lucic pan out, it appears that most teams are willing to part ways with a fairly high pick in order to get a similar player. For example Kyle Clifford was drafted in the 2nd round and both Zack Kassian and Tom Wilson were top 15 picks.

The other option is to take a tougher player and try and really develop them into a well rounded player, which is what I think they are trying to do with Kramer.

Or maybe sign a free agent player from juniors or the NCAA, who was a top fighter at some point and try to develop them into a full time player. In regards to that strategy, I am trying to keep an eye on Woodruff Hudson who was a top heavyweight in the USHL and now is off at St Lawrence University in the NCAA. If he develops well enough during his time in the NCAA, then he could be a good free agent to sign.

I don't think you can develop that type of player. Either a guy plays that type of game or he doesn't. You can't change a person's nature.

IMO you're better off drafting a guy who plays that style of game and teaching him how to refine the rest of his game than the other way around.

I wish we could put Conacher's brain in Greening's body.

 

[cage]

I'm gonna hate this leafs team even more when Clarkson returns

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Corvo looked really bad yesterday. For a guy that is poor defensively, he is really soft in our own zone. He actually looks scared to take a hit, which in turn makes him cough up the puck or lose battles along the boards. Aside from that, it doesn't look like his offensive game is anywhere near what it was back in 2007.

On the flip side, Gryba made some nice plays in transition the night before and looks more dangerous from the point. He just needs to keep it simple.

 

[DIrwin]

Well I'll bet I get an infraction but here goes...

Leaf fan here, thought in general both sides played very sloppy. Our defence was horrible early on and you guys definitely capitalized. The second line pairing is looking great for you guys. I was wondering what you guys are thinking of your 1st pairing at the moment? It will definitely take some time to get the chemistry going I'd imagine!

I think you guys have a great team and will be in good position for playoffs.

I just want to address a few comments I see here and flame me if you will; where is this diving talk coming from? I see embellishments here and there but claiming we are a diving team really?

And I don't understand the hate/comment towards the "trick shots" I will say I did not like Raymond's goal but the league hasn't taken it out so I guess he is free to use it despite how terrible it is -_- and JVR's shot? He's scored that way before maybe he thought he fool Anderson I doubt he had "I want to make him look stupid in his mind while doing it."

If I offend anyone with my points I apologize, despite the rivalry I do respect your team and fans for the most part. We all have bad apples, I just don't see the point of being outright classless over hockey to one another. Life must be pretty good for us to be petty over something as frivolous as hockey.

Look forward to more meetings with you guys cheers!

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Corvo looked really bad yesterday. For a guy that is poor defensively, he is really soft in our own zone. He actually looks scared to take a hit, which in turn makes him cough up the puck or lose battles along the boards. Aside from that, it doesn't look like his offensive game is anywhere near what it was back in 2007.

That has always been Corvo. Hopefully Gryba finds his game soon.

 

[Berserker*]

I don't think you can develop that type of player. Either a guy plays that type of game or he doesn't. You can't change a person's nature.

IMO you're better off drafting a guy who plays that style of game and teaching him how to refine the rest of his game than the other way around.

Well we have an elite level development staff so maybe we will be fortunate to have player, or a few players pan out and turn into a Probert, Brashear or Simon type. Hopefully the Sens keep an eye out for players available in the later rounds or are CHL/NCAA free agents that look like they could be developed into that.

I wish we could put Conacher's brain in Greening's body.

That would be amazing. Unfortunately it still looks like Greening hasn't found a way to fully commit to throwing his body into hits. I guess you really can't change a players nature.

 

[Berserker*]

On the flip side, Gryba made some nice plays in transition the night before and looks more dangerous from the point. He just needs to keep it simple.

Agreed. Gryba is still very inexperienced at the NHL level, so keeping it simple will allow him to be a more effective player.

 

[aragorn]

I'm one of the biggest fighting advocates around here, so I wasn't trying to argue that we shouldn't have a heavyweight enforcer. My point was that I question how effective Kassian is for the role that he is in. As a heavyweight, he isn't really a feared fighter or big hitter, and he doesn't agitate so he isn't much of a shift disturber. In the role that he is in, for his lack of hockey skills, he should at least be very ****ing intimidating. The opposition should be scared to play against him.

That is why I said I wish we had a prime Probert, Brashear or Simon. All three were very scary players, dominant fighters, big hitters and made their presence felt each shift. Aside from that they could each put up around 20-40 points per season. Those are the types of heavies that could take a regular shift and were very much impact players.

I think Washington got that kind of player you are describing in Tom Wilson (6'4" enforcer & potential Lucic lite type player). A guy I wanted Ottawa to draft from Plymouth who played with Noesen. I doubt Washington would want to trade him though since he made their team out of training camp to add more size & toughness to their lineup. These kind of guys are hard to find & don't grow on trees.

On another note, I remember reading Brennan in the Ottawa Sun say before a particular preseason game that he was interested in seeing Sdao & Robinson drop the gloves. I found that strange because I don't remember ever reading that Robinson was or could be a fighter, although he is big at 6'5". Ironically, we did get to see Sdao & Robinson fight in the preseason & both looked like they could use some fighting instructions before trying that again at the NHL level. I know Sdao is known as a fighter but so far hasn't really looked very good at it, except in one video last yr.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Unfortunate ending to the game last night considering we had a 2 goal lead at one point, but it happens to every team. On the bright side, we got 3/4 points in a back-to-back on the road.

 

[Berserker*]

I think Washington got that kind of player you are describing in Tom Wilson (6'4" enforcer & potential Lucic lite type player). A guy I wanted Ottawa to draft from Plymouth who played with Noesen. I doubt Washington would want to trade him though since he made their team out of training camp to add more size & toughness to their lineup. These kind of guys are hard to find & don't grow on trees.

On another note, I remember reading Brennan in the Ottawa Sun say before a particular preseason game that he was interested in seeing Sdao & Robinson drop the gloves. I found that strange because I don't remember ever reading that Robinson was or could be a fighter, although he is big at 6'5". Ironically, we did get to see Sdao & Robinson fight in the preseason & both looked like they could use some fighting instructions before trying that again at the NHL level. I know Sdao is known as a fighter but so far hasn't really looked very good at it, except in one video last yr.

The issue with Wilson is that it is such a huge risk drafting a player like him with a top 15 pick. If he were available in the 2nd or 3rd round than it would be a no brainer. Although now that the Senators have so much good young talent, they may be willing to take a risk on a player like that with a higher pick.

FQL is usually very well informed in regards to each years draft class, maybe he can chime in here in regards to who could be available that could fit that role this draft.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

The issue with Wilson is that it is such a huge risk drafting a player like him with a top 15 pick. If he were available in the 2nd or 3rd round than it would be a no brainer. Although now that the Senators have so much good young talent, they may be willing to take a risk on a player like that with a higher pick.

FQL is usually very well informed in regards to each years draft class, maybe he can chime in here in regards to who could be available that could fit that role this draft.

I haven't seen much junior hockey this year. Only gotten out to one game, but I'm hoping to make it more regularly out to Hull and CTC for 67s games.

 

[Paradoc]

Fraser is a pretty terrible Dman imo. Terrible one on one, gets lost in front of his own net, can't move the puck, gets beat b smaller players along the boards. I wouldn't even want him as a 7th D...

Speaking of bad D, how about Corvo? This guy has completely lost 'it'. He doesn't bring much offense anymore. Thank christ we have some young D ready for the call.

Not true at all. Fraser is pretty intimidating, is physical along the boards, is reliable in his own zone, and sticks up to his teammates. Perfect 6D for the leafs. The only thing he needs to improve on is his foot speed and lateral movement and like you said he isn't good one on one.

 

[Othello*]

Last night made it clear that are bottom six wingers cant produce offence.

 

[aragorn]

The issue with Wilson is that it is such a huge risk drafting a player like him with a top 15 pick. If he were available in the 2nd or 3rd round than it would be a no brainer. Although now that the Senators have so much good young talent, they may be willing to take a risk on a player like that with a higher pick.

FQL is usually very well informed in regards to each years draft class, maybe he can chime in here in regards to who could be available that could fit that role this draft.

While I understand your concerns & everyone else's for that matter regarding Kassian I doubt that now that he is here playing for Ottawa that they will trade him any time soon or draft an enforcer any time soon. The reason I say this is because he has fought both of Toronto's toughest players & done well against them does Ottawa really need to replace him since he is only 26 yrs old?

While I agree Kassian is a bit of a liability on the ice, he is also a big need against teams like Toronto so that Neil isn't overpowered having to fight two or three times a game when playing them. Our young tough guys like Cowen & Smith can drop them but they aren't ready yet I don't think to challenge an Orr or McClaren. My guess is that if this organization ever drafts another enforcer that it will be late in the draft, I just don't see the Murray's using a good pick for a tough guy.

But on this point, what I would like to see at some point in the very near future is a third line of Greening, Zibanejad & Stone which has a little bit of everything. These three would add more size & muscle to the lineup as well as good defensive play, speed & scoring potential. None of them are considered enforcers but both Greening & Stone can drop the gloves if need be & they add a little more size & toughness to the lineup (toughness by committee). I would get rid of Da Costa & Condra to make room for them although we may not get to see them until somewhere around the trade deadline, if not next season. While some would argue that Da Costa & Condra have more skill right now than Zibanejad & Stone I would argue that Stone & Zibanejad have more potential, not to mention size & strength.

I'm a big believer in strength down the middle & Spezza, Turris & Zibanejad down the middle is certainly IMO strength & size down the middle for yrs to come. Adding Stone to the lineup arguably brings in a gifted goal scorer & playmaker although he does possess some skating issues for some people but Greening & Zibanejad should make up for that on the same line. Hopefully over the course of this season Stone & Zibanejad will get a lot of playing time together on the same line in Bingo & hopefully gel together as a unit. Add the versatile Greening who seems to be able to play with anyone on any line & I think you create a pretty good 3rd line with two other lines in Ottawa that most think are pretty good.