Post-Game Talk: Senators def. Canucks - 6-2 (Gaudette, Baertschi)

[Canucks LB]

He was on so many people's do not draft lists back in 2018 lol

Podkolzin being a similar player is my hope.

I was also quite sceptical.

Seems like a really nice kid also

 

[MS]

Team started well but then fell off and got increasingly sloppy as the game went along. Lots of lazy plays and carelessness.

- Miller and Horvat were really good, especially Miller who was the best Canuck. Have to be impressed with his effort level from a veteran which really stuck out tonight.

- conversely, Pearson was a bit of a drag on that line tonight. Huuuuuge float back defensively on the 2-1 goal and generally looked sluggish. Needs to show more than that if he’s going to be put in hard matchups.

- Gaudette surely makes the team. Huge rebound in the back half of the preseason after a poor first couple games.

- Baertschi also much better, showed his positional smarts and did well.

- MacEwen had a good physical first period and then faded. Somewhat disappointing preseason from him.

- most surprising performance of the game was Graovac, who might have been the best Canuck forward outside of Miller. Really battled hard and skated much better than I’ve ever seen from him. And saw a lot of the puck in the offensive zone, drawing a couple penalties. Will obviously be cut, but this performance bodes well as a callup option.

- Beagle also had a solid game on that line. Schaller was ok.

- Virtanen ... ugh. If only he had a brain. A couple times/game moves his feet and his closing speed on the play defensively is unreal. Then floats around for another 5 shifts. No idea what to do with this player at this point.

- Goldobin is done. Had one nice little rush and a good shift right after that in the first period but otherwise was just painfully soft on the puck yet again. Looks timid and scared, no purpose to his game.

- Sutter is just kinda there.

- expectations on Hughes for this year should maybe be lowered a bit. Makes some nice zone exits but is struggling to find his feet a bit at ES. Looks good on PP.

- Benn really does look marginal right now, especially moving the puck. That pairing with Stecher looked pretty meh again. Stecher hasn’t skated well in preseason either.

- Chatfield (especially) and Brisebois obviously struggled as neither can move the puck worth anything, but they really aren’t being put in positions to succeed by sticking them out there together.

- Demko wasn’t horrific but didn’t make many saves.

 

[LuckyBoeser]

Hughes' shot is a joke.

Yeah it lacks power. At least Hughes has great shot selection.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Yeah it lacks power. At least Hughes has great shot selection.

I will take his shot over Edler’s every time simply because of this

 

[mossey3535]

I will take his shot over Edler’s every time simply because of this

Edler's shot is almost useless, but he is gifted so much PP time some of them manage to go in.

Like if we just put Hughes in Edler's spot, he would outscore and outpoint him IMO.

 

[krutovsdonut]

gaudette makes the team

goldy does not

brisebois blew a chance to leapfrog fantenberg

demko woof

graovac would make the team if he could skate.

virtanen i just dunno

baertschi should beat out pearson for a top six role

 

[VanJack]

If I stay on these boards long enough, somebody will explain to me how Beagle actually makes the Canucks better. An offensive black-hole on the fourth line, and signed for another three years. Ugh!.

Let's face it, The Canucks would actually be a better team if Gaudette centered the third line; and Sutter the fourth. And while I'm at it, both Graovac and MacEwen would actually be better options for the fourth line than Schaller.

Another two God-awful UFA signings by Benning, no way to sugar-coat it. But Canucks are stuck with them.

 

[Nucker101]

I will take his shot over Edler’s every time simply because of this

you have time to make a sandwich by the time Edler gets his shot off.

 

[Balls Mahoney]

I'm a huge MacEwen fan. I think he should be a fixture on the 4th line.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Great:
Gaudette
J.T. Miller

Good:
Baertschi
Beagle

Bad:
Sutter
Goldobin

Gaudette is a man on a mission.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Weird game...Jake Virtanen didnt have a poor game, but did nothing to make himself stand out (like Gaudette)..Canucks were the better team in the first two periods, then seemed to lose urgency in the 3rd.

An 'off night' for Thatcher Demko...not too worried about it.

 

[I am toxic]

And so it begins. This fanbase is toxic.

Unpossible.

 

[ohnoeszz]

Baertschi looks like he took a step forward in on-ice awareness. He's making all his plays a touch faster than in years past and it is really giving him that little bit of extra time/space he needs. Not just this game - hes looked good this year.

Goldobin is getting panned by reputation and its undeserved. He played well. Sure he had those few nice drives which showed greater strength on the puck but he also won battles in the corner and fed his teammates. He was better and more committed on the forecheck than in the past. He did a lot of good work that was wasted by sloppy play. I'd like to see him with Gaudette and Baertschi next.

Virtanen does not impose his size/speed upon the game. I could live with the lacking mental acuity if he just used his natural gifts to make up for it. He needs to make quicker puck decisions and it's been that way since he was a rookie. He should have been an AHL player his first few years but at this point he looks like a 4th line checker - that's what I hope we treat him as because while he is a plus physically he drags his lines down mentally. I think he can be a very good checker but it will be tough transitioning from the higher expectations of this organization. He may need to move on to keep his fabled potential from hanging over his remaining career.

Benn looks like I expected. We didnt get him because hes a clean manicured puck mover... we got him for his rough and tumble ability to make and excel in broken plays. He rarely looks good - even on successful plays. I have to suspect replacing Hutton with him was more about the locker room and roster versatility than it was about player quality.

The Horvat line looks like it knows it is preseason. Pearson looked sluggish while the others were a bit lackadaisical but Bo has chemistry with both of them.

Hughes is exciting. It's like the team structures are playthings for him to toy with. He gets way out of position for a typical Dman but always knows where his team is and where his recovery route is. There is a ton of learning to be done for that playstyle but it will make us extremely hard to defend.

 

[orcatown]

Canucks had way too many turnovers coming out of their zone and didn't handle the puck very well anywhere. PP was disorganized and ineffective and down low coverage on the PK was weak. Looked a lot like the team that had similar struggles last year.

Good

Gaudette - stronger in every zone and always looked the most likely to create offense. A breakout season by this player would be huge for the team. Have to find a way to get him in the lineup

Hughes - did not see anything to fault on the defensive side and he was excellent at getting the puck out of his zone and hitting the open man with tape to tape passes. That said, team is still searching for ways to work his skill into the offense. Sometimes others just get standing wondering where they should be going. Also he needs a better shot from the point. But up to this point has been a very good pre-season for Hughes. Would say that Tanev and him still trying to find some cohesion and you wonder if Tanev is the right partner.

Bad

Horvat - two very errant passes leading directly to goals and helter skelter offensive effort by his whole line. Also, Horvat one reason why PP was messed up. Maybe one of his worst performance as a Canuck.

Schaller - MIA. Beagle created some openings with a strong forecheck but Schaller did nothing to support. Schaller needed to bring it tonight and just didn't. I'd say that while players like Graovac and McEwen had some difficult shifts they, at least, got involved and provided some push. Both would be ahead of Schaller IMO.

Benn - not horrible but caught flat footed and throwing Bieksa-like passes up from the back end or icing the puck. Did not think Stecher and him worked well together and spent far too much time tied up their end. Often big gaps between that d- pair and the forwards leaving too much room for Ottawa rushes and preventing the team from working as unit offensively or defensively

Chatfield - Has improved mobility but not to the point where he can get on the play quick enough to shut down play in mid ice zone.. Constantly jumps up, gets caught and other team has an open chance.

Pearson - Has jumped around line-up and seems confused how to play off others. Often ends up doing his own individual thing and making cross ice passes that get picked off. Can see he has some offensive game but he struggling to work with his line mates and has become a defensive liability.

Ugly

Demko - made himself too small on some of the goals and did not handle puck smoothly around his net. Plays like this and the Canucks have a significant back up problem. Canucks cannot make the playoffs with poor or even ordinary goal tending. One saving grace is that if Demko does struggle likely isn't picked up in the expansion draft

Goldobin - Showing next to nothing. Shot, which should be his bread and butter, is neither accurate or hard. Played with far too much hesitation and created no space to make plays

Others

Brisebois - like other fringe NHL guys cannot complete the play. Made a nice rush into the offensive zone in the second but then he doesn't complete the play to anyone. Same with Graovac and McEwen. Get something started but when it comes to finishing the play off, they can't. It is often that fine edge of finish that separates such players from bona vide NHLers.

Baertschi - better, but did little after the first. Flashes some skill but hardly consistent. May make the top 6 but he is very marginal there.

Sutter - little involved. Throughly outplayed by Gaudette in this game.

 

[sting101]

excellent - Gaudette Hughes
good - Stecher Miller Baertschi Beagle Virtanen
meh - Benn Goldobin Graovac MaEwen Tanev
bad - Horvat Pearson Brisebois Sutter
awful - Schaller Demko Chatfield

 

[CherryToke]

Someone needs to lose their admin rights. Reported.

 

[Nucker101]

Canucks need to send the entire team to that mindfulness program that Sven did.

 

[VanJack]

Was Goldy that bad in this game?....gave Pearson and Graovac a couple of sitters in front they couldn't convert on. Thought had a strong first period.....faded a bit in the final two, but then the whole team sagged.

Unfortunately was saddled with Sutter as his center, so it was basically generating offense on his own. Guys like Schaller and Virtanen looked far worse imo. But probably a good chance he ends up on waivers before Tuesday.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

[QUOTE="VanJack, post: 164702001, member: 231979"]Was Goldy that bad in this game?....gave Pearson and Graovac a couple of sitters in front they couldn't convert on. Thought had a strong first period.....faded a bit in the final two, but then the whole team sagged.

Unfortunately was saddled with Sutter as his center, so it was basically generating offense on his own. Guys like Schaller and Virtanen looked far worse imo. But probably a good chance he ends up on waivers before Tuesday.[/QUOTE]





He wasn't bad ..he was okay...He hasn't demonstrated nearly enough this training camp to warrant a top 6 spot..When you're on the bubble like Goldy ( or like Gaudette), you better kick it up a notch, and be noticeable....

Schaller is a 4th line grinder...Goldy is basically top 6 or bust..They're not really in competition with each other...Both are on the outside looking in.

 

[Intangibos]

Schaller is a 4th line grinder...Goldy is basically top 6 or bust.

Is this definitely the case though? If Goldobin never develops offensively the way he was hoped to, but develops a solid defensive game, why couldn't be be a bottom 6 player? The reason players like him are considered top 6 or bust prospects is because they need to score at a high enough rate to make up for their defensive liabilities. If those liabilities are fixed, then he doesn't have to be top 6 or bust. Raymond was a guy who many saw as "top 6 or bust", but in reality he was solid defensively and could play the PK, he would have been fine as a 3rd liner in the NHL. Ditto with Wellwood.

I'm not saying Goldobin is some defensive specialist now, but there has quite clearly been an emphasis on him getting better along to boards and defensively and if his offensive game is extremely underwhelming it's important to reassess other aspects of his play. We have an image of Goldobin as that top 6 or bust guy, which is entirely fair by the way he absolutely was that type of player, but it's important to let that image change if he does.

For the record I think Goldobin has been very underwhelming this preseason, he still isn't a player I would like to give up on but I'm pretty sure he would clear waivers and would probably send him down. I also think he has put a lot of work into developing the defensive side of his game and it's important we watch that aspect of his game very closely rather than ignoring it focusing instead on how many plays he's creating out there.

This is more of a critique on labeling a player and then never adjusting it. Biega has been labeled an AHL player for years and honestly I think he's easily good enough to be the depth guy on a lot of NHL teams but the label stuck.

 

[Pip]

No elite skill and softer than the Sedins. Not exactly C material.

Pathetic comment

 

[mossey3535]

Problems with Demko this game:

First, you generally have four stances: 1) not ready, just watching, 2) ready but upright, 3) half-stance, ready and about halfway into your deep crouch, 4) explosive full stance, ready and fully crouched.

Second, when the goalie hugs the post on their knees, we call that post integration. You can have your post leg up (VH) or your post leg down (reverse-VH or RVH), or you can be on your feet which is the most old-school option. For any VH variation the player needs to be within two stick-lengths of you. In that scenario you are covering the entire aerial angle. It is almost impossible to score. But you are on at least one knee, which makes reacting to any lateral play slower. No matter how hard you push (you're on your knees so we would call this a down push) it's going to be slower from a VH. BUT you have the bottom of the net pretty much covered already. That is a trade-off.

Third, last two season's playoffs showed that NHL shooters have figure out post integration. It was really bad last year though with a bunch of really big goals scored when players took advantage of lazy post integration. Players have figured out that all they have to do is pass or carry the puck further out (more than two stick lengths). Even though they have a terrible angle, as long as they are on their forehand the vast majority of goalies aren't reactive from a post integration position. There are a couple of notable exceptions like Price or Bob, but for the most part post integration is a blocking move. You are giving up reaction ability for blocking area. That's the central tradeoff of goaltending. Anyhow, because it's harder to move or react, if the player can just give himself any aerial angle by shooting from further away, if they hit the top half of the net they are probably going to score. So you see guys now will not just cut straight across the crease - they will cut straight and curl out a bit. Or they will go behind the net and then curl out and away on the forehand side, get the puck just above the goal line and snap it high. A really sneaky one is on the rush if the d-man has you but you can keep your forehand free, to not cut but drift to the corner until the goalie goes into post integration too soon. Then you shoot and it's a goal. Also, if you aim at the goalie's head and hit it, you will score 95% of the time because even an NHL goalie at 6'2"+ has their head under the crossbar in post integration.

Fourth, this thing called head trajectory is by far the most important thing in goaltending. Basically (and it turns out that this is an old concept in baseball) you follow the puck with your head. Your eyes follow, then your shoulders, then your feet. The direction your head is moving (the trajectory) naturally corrects almost every issue you can have. But, it is incredibly difficult to keep doing this seemingly simple thing with consistency. And I tell you this from someone who doesn't have to practice every day or play games every other day. With that workload, mental fatigue is going to set in. You start taking shortcuts. For example, lots of drills the outcome is predictable so you do this trick where you play down to the drill. This means doing lazy things but it looks good because you already know what's going to happen. Even if you f*** up post integration which happens (guy runs into you and takes you off the post, you're tired, etc), head trajectory can save you.

Demko's main issue is that he doesn't know what stance to be in at what time. Next game watch the other goalie. In this case it was Anderson who is decent but also a 10+ year veteran (16 years, I looked it up). You need to learn when to cheat, that is be in a non-stance or upright stance, because it takes much less energy. But Demko has no idea what he's doing. Many times he is going from a relaxed stance to his full stance WHILE THE PLAYER IS WINDING UP AND IS ALREADY IN A SHOOTING POSITION. This is beyond lazy. I'm sure he got away with this shit at lower levels but it just isn't going to cut it in the NHL. Only a handful of times was Demko in his full stance already before the shot came. This is basic shot preparation and it's shocking that I see it lacking on 75% of the plays tonight. The 'perfect screen' Tkachuk goal, Demko is in a relaxed stance which is warranted because Tkachuk is the screen. But he doesn't actually fight to look around the screen - he just goes down. He has no idea where the puck was released or where it was going. The entire point of taking a chance on the relaxed stance there is so you can look OVER the screen and at least see the release point. Demko also never looks UNDER a screen. As a short goalie this is the best route for me and Demko is tall so OVER is where he should look the majority of the time. But there are a lot of moving parts to get from essentially standing up and then getting to your knees in a full butterfly. At this point Demko should be reading when to look over and when to look under.

I talked about it last season - the "late set", and I see no improvement on it so far. It might actually be worse. I guess he could fix it in the regular season but he's already well into camp and working with Clark. There is no way in hell this is being advocated by Clark - look at Marky and he is consistently in a half or full crouch well before the puck is released. It's incredibly disappointing to me for Demko to come into camp and for this to still be an issue. Like this is happening ON EVERY ZONE ENTRY.

Post integration. Marky is dogging it a bit because it's preseason but last season he was consistently getting up as soon as the puck was out of the two-stick length danger zone. But even with that you see him no do the RVH as much as Demko, and when he does it he gets out of it fast. Last game I was disappointed to see Demko go to his knees when the puck was in the corner (not two stick lengths), then stay on his knees as his defenceman skated it all the way behind his own net and out the OTHE corner...his dman didn't cut up the ice after clearing the net, he legit followed the boards from one corner to the other....that is laziness. And it is dangerous because the NHL has figured out that they can exploit this kind of lack of discipline. THIS GAME I see him going to post integration automatically. He does it if his d-man has it or if there's an opposition player who has it, or if it's in the danger zone or out of the danger zone...it is a full blown bad habit.

Staying on your knees in the inappropriate situation for too long is obvious (yes, yes, phrasing lol). Even non-goalies can see it looks lazy. But where it's not obvious is how it ruins your head trajectory. Because Demko isn't ready pre-shot, he is in the wrong stance. If you're standing up, you're looking down on the puck. You then go to a butterfly because it's a very efficient save selection. But now you're tracking the puck from a different plane. Your brain has to compensate for the change in height you're looking from. So not only does it take longer to physically go from upright to on your knees, but your puck tracking suffers because it's an extra variable your brain has to calculate. Part of the reason Price is so good is because he has great tracking. And he has great tracking because he is so smooth. His head is at the same level in his ready stance as it is when he's in his butterfly. He's said that he tries to get his eye level below the dasher because the puck is coming from below there so it is easier to read the release. Going from relaxed to ready stance constantly when the puck is in a position to be released is ruining Demko's puck tracking. That's why you're supposed to be ready BEFORE the shot.

Finally, Demko opens up when he goes down. It's easier to go down in a compact way and then explode out if you can manage to react. But he tends to open up, which then opens up big holes because he is long-limbed. He actually didn't do it too too much this game but Kevin Woodley has mentioned it's a problem in the interview DL44 referred to awhile back.

Anyhow at the very least Demko has a steep learning curve at this level on just the basics. And I don't think he progressed this off-season. His edges are slightly better but I don't think that was his problem in the first place. This isn't even taking into account the kinds of physical and mental adjustment he would need to be even a platoon starter in the NHL.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Is this definitely the case though? If Goldobin never develops offensively the way he was hoped to, but develops a solid defensive game, why couldn't be be a bottom 6 player? The reason players like him are considered top 6 or bust prospects is because they need to score at a high enough rate to make up for their defensive liabilities. If those liabilities are fixed, then he doesn't have to be top 6 or bust. Raymond was a guy who many saw as "top 6 or bust", but in reality he was solid defensively and could play the PK, he would have been fine as a 3rd liner in the NHL. Ditto with Wellwood.

I'm not saying Goldobin is some defensive specialist now, but there has quite clearly been an emphasis on him getting better along to boards and defensively and if his offensive game is extremely underwhelming it's important to reassess other aspects of his play. We have an image of Goldobin as that top 6 or bust guy, which is entirely fair by the way he absolutely was that type of player, but it's important to let that image change if he does.

For the record I think Goldobin has been very underwhelming this preseason, he still isn't a player I would like to give up on but I'm pretty sure he would clear waivers and would probably send him down. I also think he has put a lot of work into developing the defensive side of his game and it's important we watch that aspect of his game very closely rather than ignoring it focusing instead on how many plays he's creating out there.

This is more of a critique on labeling a player and then never adjusting it. Biega has been labeled an AHL player for years and honestly I think he's easily good enough to be the depth guy on a lot of NHL teams but the label stuck.

I see what you are saying..I dont really like to pigeonhole a player in a particular role either, but I don't see Goldy as a reliable /durable bottom 6 player...(not with Green anyway)..Its not that he cant be.but he is instinctively a sniper ,..more along the lines of a Michael Grabner (without the production).

It will be interesting to see where he goes from here..if he doesn't make the cut.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I love watching quinn hughes play hockey

Agreed...his skating is a treat to watch,..He's also thinking the game on another level..

 

[mossey3535]

Also, because his tracking is poor, Demko was down too soon on several plays. Like the one where it goes off of Briebois' skate, there's probably no reason for him to be down already there if he has a clear read on the puck. If he had kept his feet there he at least makes a push towards Boro-whatever to try to make a save.

The other issue with automatic post integration is that he gets caught doing it. I watched plays this game where he had already decided to hug the post without reading the play. What you should be doing is checking the danger level of the puck carrier, and then doing a quick peek for an incoming guy in the slot and then deciding what position to take.

Finally, on the 3-on-1 he was out too far. Top of your crease is dumb when there are two passing options for the puck carrier - there is more chance of a backdoor pass. I went back in the game and started paying more attention to his depth. I don't think he's modulating his depth with the game situation.