Post-Game Talk: Senators def. Canucks - 6-2 (Gaudette, Baertschi)

[Canucks1096]

If this team has any sense Gaudette will make the team over Sutter or Beagle, I have my doubts though..

With Gaudette, you might get more offence than Beagle and Sutter. But Gaudette doesn't have any experience on the pk and struggle on faceoffs, Green is not going to use Gaudette much for Dzone faceoffs. That means Horvat will take lot of Dzone with Sutter. With Gaudette in the lineup, you will be sacrificing offence with Horvat. Last year Horvat has been on for 40% range offensive starts, less than Gaudette 60 %.

 

[MS]

Remember how we were supposed to witness a competitive camp? Lots of guys pushing for a spot? Instead the only player you saw pushing for a spot was Gaudette and outside of last night his push has been in terms of effort as I think he really struggled without the puck. And he was a guy who played nearly 60 NHL games last year. Nothing from anybody else and really you have a couple players that seem like they are actively playing their way out of the NHL. Maybe more than a couple. Very little of this camp made me excited about the season to come.

It's absolutely insane that 6 years into a regime that has been consistently at the bottom of the standings, outside of one lottery pick there isn't a single prospect/rookie who is anywhere close to making the team. This should be the point where we're getting a huge push from the 2016 and 2017 drafts (which should have been huge drafts for the team after bottom-5 finishes) and there's just nothing.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

IMac was on the radio this morning saying it's 'great' that Gaudette will be going to the AHL and that he never had any chance of making the team, so I think we can pretty much say that he isn't making the team.

They won’t send 4.375M Sutter to Utica (same goes for Beagle and his 3M). It would look terrible on Benning and Company for their incompetence and mismanagement. Management is adamant that Gaudette will not be moved to wing and will play centre and they have too many forwards as is to move Sutter to wing to accommodate Gaudette. Sutter typically starts of decent in October before falling off a cliff, if the Canucks are smart they unload him soon.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

With Gaudette, you might get more offence than Beagle and Sutter. But Gaudette doesn't have any experience on the pk and struggle on faceoffs, Green is not going to use Gaudette much for Dzone faceoffs. That means Horvat will take lot of Dzone with Sutter. With Gaudette in the lineup, you will be sacrificing offence with Horvat. Last year Horvat has been on for 40% range offensive starts, less than Gaudette 60 %.

Sutter 26 Games played,
8 goals for & 21 goals against.

Even Strength
Sutter GA/60 = 3.8
Gaudette GA/60 = 2.7

Beagle is average defensively but Sutter is terrible. The only player to have a worse GA/60 at even strength last season was Gudbranson.

 

[Canucks1096]

Sutter 26 Games played,
8 goals for & 21 goals against.

Even Strength
Sutter GA/60 = 3.8
Gaudette GA/60 = 2.7

Beagle is average defensively but Sutter is terrible. The only player to have a worse GA/60 at even strength last season was Gudbranson.

Beagle 80% Dzone faceoffs
Sutter 70% Dzone Faceoffs
Gaudette 40% Dzone faceoffs

Gaudette had shelter mins last season. Sutter and Beagle had the tough mins. Stats don't mean much without context.

So late in a game Canucks winning 3-2. You are ok sending Gaudette ( a player that struggle on faceoffs ) to take important draws?

With Gaudette in the lineup, you are ok sacrificing offence from Horvat?

With Gaudette in the lineup instead of Sutter, you are ok letting Horvat play on every PK?

With a team that struggle to score goals in the last 4 years. Wouldn't it be better to let Horvat concentrate on offence?

Btw, Gaudette preseason is misleading. I believe 4 goals he scored, the only nhl D that was out there was a 39 year Hainsey. Correct me if I am wrong on that.

 

[wetcoast]

Gaudette has done everything and more to make the team. Leading goal scorer in pre season. If he can contribute scoring on the third line it really changes the whole depth of the team.

The problem is that he can get sent down and realistically is he going to get enough minutes with EP40, Horvat and Jay 4 year contract Beagle on the team?

 

[tantalum]

The Athletic has quite a bit to say on how bad Gaudette was last year across multiple articles. Kid has talent but he was destroyed last year and has a long way to go. One of the worst, if not the worst, forward in the league in terms of results.

If he gets hurt this year and retires due to injuries, does that mean we are off the hook for his cap hit or nah?

Little chance he retires due to injury and leaves $4+ million behind. He'll go LTIR instead.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

The problem is that he can get sent down and realistically is he going to get enough minutes with EP40, Horvat and Jay 4 year contract Beagle on the team?

I don't think you can send down a guy who scores 4 goals in pre-season and who has obviously worked hard over the summer.
Keep him for the first few games minimum and look at trading or waiving other players who haven't impressed. Based on performance he's easily in the top 12 forwards. This team was so starved for goals last year that Virtanen was our fourth top scorer. Gaudette has defensive issues but at least he's shown a willingness to work hard and improve unlike some others on the cusp. He needs to stay.

 

[NextYear67]

Who would you rather in fantasy this year? Hughes vs Edler. Points league

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Beagle 80% Dzone faceoffs
Sutter 70% Dzone Faceoffs
Gaudette 40% Dzone faceoffs

Gaudette had shelter mins last season. Sutter and Beagle had the tough mins. Stats don't mean much without context.

So late in a game Canucks winning 3-2. You are ok sending Gaudette ( a player that struggle on faceoffs ) to take important draws?

With Gaudette in the lineup, you are ok sacrificing offence from Horvat?

With Gaudette in the lineup instead of Sutter, you are ok letting Horvat play on every PK?

With a team that struggle to score goals in the last 4 years. Wouldn't it be better to let Horvat concentrate on offence?

Btw, Gaudette preseason is misleading. I believe 4 goals he scored, the only nhl D that was out there was a 39 year Hainsey. Correct me if I am wrong on that.

Even Strength
O% D% GF/60 GA/60 FO%
Beagle 18.5 81.5 1.9 2.9 56.2
Sutter 31.0 69.0 1.7 3.8 48.5
Dowd 43.0 57.0 2.8 2.0 51.9
Richardson 33.7 66.3 2.3 2.5 54.9


Replacing Sutter will not make much of an impact. He is terrible defensively and is an offensive blackhole. Literally anyone in his place would be an upgrade. Gaudette is a better overall player today.

 

[VanJack]

Beagle 80% Dzone faceoffs
Sutter 70% Dzone Faceoffs
Gaudette 40% Dzone faceoffs

Gaudette had shelter mins last season. Sutter and Beagle had the tough mins. Stats don't mean much without context.

So late in a game Canucks winning 3-2. You are ok sending Gaudette ( a player that struggle on faceoffs ) to take important draws?

With Gaudette in the lineup, you are ok sacrificing offence from Horvat?

With Gaudette in the lineup instead of Sutter, you are ok letting Horvat play on every PK?

With a team that struggle to score goals in the last 4 years. Wouldn't it be better to let Horvat concentrate on offence?

Btw, Gaudette preseason is misleading. I believe 4 goals he scored, the only nhl D that was out there was a 39 year Hainsey. Correct me if I am wrong on that.

By the time the Canucks are in a position to actually compete for the Cup, Beagle will be bought out and Sutter's contract will be up, and there's no way he gets another one from the Canucks.

So you can either grow with Gaudette, or watch 'three goal scorer' Beagle or 'chronically injured' Sutter win a few more faceoffs. Big deal.

 

[Canucks1096]

Even Strength
O% D% GF/60 GA/60 FO%
Beagle 18.5 81.5 1.9 2.9 56.2
Sutter 31.0 69.0 1.7 3.8 48.5
Dowd 43.0 57.0 2.8 2.0 51.9
Richardson 33.7 66.3 2.3 2.5 54.9


Replacing Sutter will not make much of an impact. He is terrible defensively and is an offensive blackhole. Literally anyone in his place would be an upgrade. Gaudette is a better overall player today.

You decided to just ignore all my questions. Ok.

Gaudette is a better overall player than Sutter base on what? Gaudette has no experience playing against top lines in the nhl, horrible on faceoffs, doesn't play the PK, healthy Sutter has proven he can get 30 points on the third line role. I am so sure Gaudette cam even get 30 points.

With Gaudette in the lineup instead. You probably looking at less points for Horvat as well

A third line center should be helping out your top 2 centers in Dzone faceoffs so they can concentrate on offence. Not the other way around.

 

[Canucks1096]

By the time the Canucks are in a position to actually compete for the Cup, Beagle will be bought out and Sutter's contract will be up, and there's no way he gets another one from the Canucks.

So you can either grow with Gaudette, or watch 'three goal scorer' Beagle or 'chronically injured' Sutter win a few more faceoffs. Big deal.

Grow Gaudette in Utica, let him play 20 mins a game in all situations.

If you Put Gaudette in Beagle and Sutter spots. He will be a mess as well, putting a player in a role that there not ready for hurts the player development more I think.

Gaudette is quicker, make decision faster and seem to have more strength but his Defensive issues are still noticeable

 

[Zippgunn]

Problems with Demko this game:

First, you generally have four stances: 1) not ready, just watching, 2) ready but upright, 3) half-stance, ready and about halfway into your deep crouch, 4) explosive full stance, ready and fully crouched.

Second, when the goalie hugs the post on their knees, we call that post integration. You can have your post leg up (VH) or your post leg down (reverse-VH or RVH), or you can be on your feet which is the most old-school option. For any VH variation the player needs to be within two stick-lengths of you. In that scenario you are covering the entire aerial angle. It is almost impossible to score. But you are on at least one knee, which makes reacting to any lateral play slower. No matter how hard you push (you're on your knees so we would call this a down push) it's going to be slower from a VH. BUT you have the bottom of the net pretty much covered already. That is a trade-off.

Third, last two season's playoffs showed that NHL shooters have figure out post integration. It was really bad last year though with a bunch of really big goals scored when players took advantage of lazy post integration. Players have figured out that all they have to do is pass or carry the puck further out (more than two stick lengths). Even though they have a terrible angle, as long as they are on their backhand the vast majority of goalies aren't reactive from a post integration position. There are a couple of notable exceptions like Price or Bob, but for the most part post integration is a blocking move. You are giving up reaction ability for blocking area. That's the central tradeoff of goaltending. Anyhow, because it's harder to move or react, if the player can just give himself any aerial angle by shooting from further away, if they hit the top half of the net they are probably going to score. So you see guys now will not just cut straight across the crease - they will cut straight and curl out a bit. Or they will go behind the net and then curl out and away on the forehand side, get the puck just above the goal line and snap it high. A really sneaky one is on the rush if the d-man has you but you can keep your forehand free, to not cut but drift to the corner until the goalie goes into post integration too soon. Then you shoot and it's a goal. Also, if you aim at the goalie's head and hit it, you will score 95% of the time because even an NHL goalie at 6'2"+ has their head under the crossbar in post integration.

Fourth, this thing called head trajectory is by far the most important thing in goaltending. Basically (and it turns out that this is an old concept in baseball) you follow the puck with your head. Your eyes follow, then your shoulders, then your feet. The direction your head is moving (the trajectory) naturally corrects almost every issue you can have. But, it is incredibly difficult to keep doing this seemingly simple thing with consistency. And I tell you this from someone who doesn't have to practice every day or play games every other day. With that workload, mental fatigue is going to set in. You start taking shortcuts. For example, lots of drills the outcome is predictable so you do this trick where you play down to the drill. This means doing lazy things but it looks good because you already know what's going to happen. Even if you **** up post integration which happens (guy runs into you and takes you off the post, you're tired, etc), head trajectory can save you.

Demko's main issue is that he doesn't know what stance to be in at what time. Next game watch the other goalie. In this case it was Anderson who is decent but also a 10+ year veteran (16 years, I looked it up). You need to learn when to cheat, that is be in a non-stance or upright stance, because it takes much less energy. But Demko has no idea what he's doing. Many times he is going from a relaxed stance to his full stance WHILE THE PLAYER IS WINDING UP AND IS ALREADY IN A SHOOTING POSITION. This is beyond lazy. I'm sure he got away with this **** at lower levels but it just isn't going to cut it in the NHL. Only a handful of times was Demko in his full stance already before the shot came. This is basic shot preparation and it's shocking that I see it lacking on 75% of the plays tonight. The 'perfect screen' Tkachuk goal, Demko is in a relaxed stance which is warranted because Tkachuk is the screen. But he doesn't actually fight to look around the screen - he just goes down. He has no idea where the puck was released or where it was going. The entire point of taking a chance on the relaxed stance there is so you can look OVER the screen and at least see the release point. Demko also never looks UNDER a screen. As a short goalie this is the best route for me and Demko is tall so OVER is where he should look the majority of the time. But there are a lot of moving parts to get from essentially standing up and then getting to your knees in a full butterfly. At this point Demko should be reading when to look over and when to look under.

I talked about it last season - the "late set", and I see no improvement on it so far. It might actually be worse. I guess he could fix it in the regular season but he's already well into camp and working with Clark. There is no way in hell this is being advocated by Clark - look at Marky and he is consistently in a half or full crouch well before the puck is released. It's incredibly disappointing to me for Demko to come into camp and for this to still be an issue. Like this is happening ON EVERY ZONE ENTRY.

Post integration. Marky is dogging it a bit because it's preseason but last season he was consistently getting up as soon as the puck was out of the two-stick length danger zone. But even with that you see him no do the RVH as much as Demko, and when he does it he gets out of it fast. Last game I was disappointed to see Demko go to his knees when the puck was in the corner (not two stick lengths), then stay on his knees as his defenceman skated it all the way behind his own net and out the OTHE corner...his dman didn't cut up the ice after clearing the net, he legit followed the boards from one corner to the other....that is laziness. And it is dangerous because the NHL has figured out that they can exploit this kind of lack of discipline. THIS GAME I see him going to post integration automatically. He does it if his d-man has it or if there's an opposition player who has it, or if it's in the danger zone or out of the danger zone...it is a full blown bad habit.

Staying on your knees in the inappropriate situation for too long is obvious (yes, yes, phrasing lol). Even non-goalies can see it looks lazy. But where it's not obvious is how it ruins your head trajectory. Because Demko isn't ready pre-shot, he is in the wrong stance. If you're standing up, you're looking down on the puck. You then go to a butterfly because it's a very efficient save selection. But now you're tracking the puck from a different plane. Your brain has to compensate for the change in height you're looking from. So not only does it take longer to physically go from upright to on your knees, but your puck tracking suffers because it's an extra variable your brain has to calculate. Part of the reason Price is so good is because he has great tracking. And he has great tracking because he is so smooth. His head is at the same level in his ready stance as it is when he's in his butterfly. He's said that he tries to get his eye level below the dasher because the puck is coming from below there so it is easier to read the release. Going from relaxed to ready stance constantly when the puck is in a position to be released is ruining Demko's puck tracking. That's why you're supposed to be ready BEFORE the shot.

Finally, Demko opens up when he goes down. It's easier to go down in a compact way and then explode out if you can manage to react. But he tends to open up, which then opens up big holes because he is long-limbed. He actually didn't do it too too much this game but Kevin Woodley has mentioned it's a problem in the interview DL44 referred to awhile back.

Anyhow at the very least Demko has a steep learning curve at this level on just the basics. And I don't think he progressed this off-season. His edges are slightly better but I don't think that was his problem in the first place. This isn't even taking into account the kinds of physical and mental adjustment he would need to be even a platoon starter in the NHL.

Well put. There are a lot of people here who think Demko is a gimmie for an elite starter's role here but I have yet to see it. To me he looks like a barely adequate backup in the NHL. If Marky gets hurt or regresses any hopes we might have at a playoff spot evaporate...

 

[Zippgunn]

Team is going nowhere under Green.

Ah so I'm NOT alone...

 

[VanJack]

You decided to just ignore all my questions. Ok.

Gaudette is a better overall player than Sutter base on what? Gaudette has no experience playing against top lines in the nhl, horrible on faceoffs, doesn't play the PK, healthy Sutter has proven he can get 30 points on the third line role. I am so sure Gaudette cam even get 30 points.

With Gaudette in the lineup instead. You probably looking at less points for Horvat as well

A third line center should be helping out your top 2 centers in Dzone faceoffs so they can concentrate on offence. Not the other way around.

Is Sutter a better player than Gaudette? Who knows? Sutter missed most of last season, and was laboring when he was in the lineup, And in his three years with the Canucks he's been chronically battling injuries. At least two groin surgeries and a sports hernia operation that I'm aware of, as well as a shoulder injury.

So how does anyone compare Sutter--who's basically been MIA for the last three seasons-- with a kid like Gaudette? Of course you can't. The last time I looked, a guy on LTIR can't win faceoffs or match up "against the top lines in the NHL'. Actually Sutter wouldn't be doing this anyway, because that falls to the Beagle line.

Time to move on from Sutter....best case scenario he stays healthy for a few months and then gets dealt.

 

[mossey3535]

To be clear, I still think Demko is an excellent prospect who will be an NHL starter. I just think he still has a 1-2 year development curve. If he really gets it this year with another year under Clark, his timeline may accelerate.

 

[CherryToke]

Team should be renamed to the Vancouver Cowardly Lions

Can even keep the C on the crest, for Cowards.

 

[mossey3535]

Who would you rather in fantasy this year? Hughes vs Edler. Points league

If canucks coaching comes to their senses, Hughes. If we get Edler force-fed PP1 minutes again, neither lol.

 

[I am toxic]

Team should be renamed to the Vancouver Cowardly Lions

Can even keep the C on the crest, for cowards.

Whoa.

I have competition.

 

[Jimnastic]

It's absolutely insane that 6 years into a regime that has been consistently at the bottom of the standings, outside of one lottery pick there isn't a single prospect/rookie who is anywhere close to making the team. This should be the point where we're getting a huge push from the 2016 and 2017 drafts (which should have been huge drafts for the team after bottom-5 finishes) and there's just nothing.

Umm....Petey?, Boesser?, Hughes? WTF?

 

[MS]

Umm....Petey?, Boesser?, Hughes? WTF?

This camp, the only new guy pushing for a spot is Hughes, who as I said was a high lottery pick two drafts ago. Past that, there is no other push.

 

[NuxFan09]

Whoa.

I have competition.

In fairness, the inability of this organization top to bottom to defend its players is astounding and embarrassing.

 

[RobertKron]

This camp, the only new guy pushing for a spot is Hughes, who as I said was a high lottery pick two drafts ago. Past that, there is no other push.

Yeah, by now it really should be a problem that they don't have enough spots for the young guys coming up through the system.

 

[mathonwy]

Team should be renamed to the Vancouver Cowardly Lions

Can even keep the C on the crest, for Cowards.

I like the cut of your jib.

VCCC

Vancouver Cowardly Culture Carriers.