Post-Game Talk: Senators def. Canucks - 6-2 (Gaudette, Baertschi)

timw33

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Nov 18, 2007
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Problems with Demko this game:

First, you generally have four stances: 1) not ready, just watching, 2) ready but upright, 3) half-stance, ready and about halfway into your deep crouch, 4) explosive full stance, ready and fully crouched.

Second, when the goalie hugs the post on their knees, we call that post integration. You can have your post leg up (VH) or your post leg down (reverse-VH or RVH), or you can be on your feet which is the most old-school option. For any VH variation the player needs to be within two stick-lengths of you. In that scenario you are covering the entire aerial angle. It is almost impossible to score. But you are on at least one knee, which makes reacting to any lateral play slower. No matter how hard you push (you're on your knees so we would call this a down push) it's going to be slower from a VH. BUT you have the bottom of the net pretty much covered already. That is a trade-off.

Third, last two season's playoffs showed that NHL shooters have figure out post integration. It was really bad last year though with a bunch of really big goals scored when players took advantage of lazy post integration. Players have figured out that all they have to do is pass or carry the puck further out (more than two stick lengths). Even though they have a terrible angle, as long as they are on their backhand the vast majority of goalies aren't reactive from a post integration position. There are a couple of notable exceptions like Price or Bob, but for the most part post integration is a blocking move. You are giving up reaction ability for blocking area. That's the central tradeoff of goaltending. Anyhow, because it's harder to move or react, if the player can just give himself any aerial angle by shooting from further away, if they hit the top half of the net they are probably going to score. So you see guys now will not just cut straight across the crease - they will cut straight and curl out a bit. Or they will go behind the net and then curl out and away on the forehand side, get the puck just above the goal line and snap it high. A really sneaky one is on the rush if the d-man has you but you can keep your forehand free, to not cut but drift to the corner until the goalie goes into post integration too soon. Then you shoot and it's a goal. Also, if you aim at the goalie's head and hit it, you will score 95% of the time because even an NHL goalie at 6'2"+ has their head under the crossbar in post integration.

Fourth, this thing called head trajectory is by far the most important thing in goaltending. Basically (and it turns out that this is an old concept in baseball) you follow the puck with your head. Your eyes follow, then your shoulders, then your feet. The direction your head is moving (the trajectory) naturally corrects almost every issue you can have. But, it is incredibly difficult to keep doing this seemingly simple thing with consistency. And I tell you this from someone who doesn't have to practice every day or play games every other day. With that workload, mental fatigue is going to set in. You start taking shortcuts. For example, lots of drills the outcome is predictable so you do this trick where you play down to the drill. This means doing lazy things but it looks good because you already know what's going to happen. Even if you **** up post integration which happens (guy runs into you and takes you off the post, you're tired, etc), head trajectory can save you.

Demko's main issue is that he doesn't know what stance to be in at what time. Next game watch the other goalie. In this case it was Anderson who is decent but also a 10+ year veteran (16 years, I looked it up). You need to learn when to cheat, that is be in a non-stance or upright stance, because it takes much less energy. But Demko has no idea what he's doing. Many times he is going from a relaxed stance to his full stance WHILE THE PLAYER IS WINDING UP AND IS ALREADY IN A SHOOTING POSITION. This is beyond lazy. I'm sure he got away with this **** at lower levels but it just isn't going to cut it in the NHL. Only a handful of times was Demko in his full stance already before the shot came. This is basic shot preparation and it's shocking that I see it lacking on 75% of the plays tonight. The 'perfect screen' Tkachuk goal, Demko is in a relaxed stance which is warranted because Tkachuk is the screen. But he doesn't actually fight to look around the screen - he just goes down. He has no idea where the puck was released or where it was going. The entire point of taking a chance on the relaxed stance there is so you can look OVER the screen and at least see the release point. Demko also never looks UNDER a screen. As a short goalie this is the best route for me and Demko is tall so OVER is where he should look the majority of the time. But there are a lot of moving parts to get from essentially standing up and then getting to your knees in a full butterfly. At this point Demko should be reading when to look over and when to look under.

I talked about it last season - the "late set", and I see no improvement on it so far. It might actually be worse. I guess he could fix it in the regular season but he's already well into camp and working with Clark. There is no way in hell this is being advocated by Clark - look at Marky and he is consistently in a half or full crouch well before the puck is released. It's incredibly disappointing to me for Demko to come into camp and for this to still be an issue. Like this is happening ON EVERY ZONE ENTRY.

Post integration. Marky is dogging it a bit because it's preseason but last season he was consistently getting up as soon as the puck was out of the two-stick length danger zone. But even with that you see him no do the RVH as much as Demko, and when he does it he gets out of it fast. Last game I was disappointed to see Demko go to his knees when the puck was in the corner (not two stick lengths), then stay on his knees as his defenceman skated it all the way behind his own net and out the OTHE corner...his dman didn't cut up the ice after clearing the net, he legit followed the boards from one corner to the other....that is laziness. And it is dangerous because the NHL has figured out that they can exploit this kind of lack of discipline. THIS GAME I see him going to post integration automatically. He does it if his d-man has it or if there's an opposition player who has it, or if it's in the danger zone or out of the danger zone...it is a full blown bad habit.

Staying on your knees in the inappropriate situation for too long is obvious (yes, yes, phrasing lol). Even non-goalies can see it looks lazy. But where it's not obvious is how it ruins your head trajectory. Because Demko isn't ready pre-shot, he is in the wrong stance. If you're standing up, you're looking down on the puck. You then go to a butterfly because it's a very efficient save selection. But now you're tracking the puck from a different plane. Your brain has to compensate for the change in height you're looking from. So not only does it take longer to physically go from upright to on your knees, but your puck tracking suffers because it's an extra variable your brain has to calculate. Part of the reason Price is so good is because he has great tracking. And he has great tracking because he is so smooth. His head is at the same level in his ready stance as it is when he's in his butterfly. He's said that he tries to get his eye level below the dasher because the puck is coming from below there so it is easier to read the release. Going from relaxed to ready stance constantly when the puck is in a position to be released is ruining Demko's puck tracking. That's why you're supposed to be ready BEFORE the shot.

Finally, Demko opens up when he goes down. It's easier to go down in a compact way and then explode out if you can manage to react. But he tends to open up, which then opens up big holes because he is long-limbed. He actually didn't do it too too much this game but Kevin Woodley has mentioned it's a problem in the interview DL44 referred to awhile back.

Anyhow at the very least Demko has a steep learning curve at this level on just the basics. And I don't think he progressed this off-season. His edges are slightly better but I don't think that was his problem in the first place. This isn't even taking into account the kinds of physical and mental adjustment he would need to be even a platoon starter in the NHL.

Insanely informative and fascinating. This board is lucky to get such great insight.
 

Peen

Rejoicing in a Benning-free world
Oct 6, 2013
29,909
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I didn't catch the game tonight, but happy to hear Baertschi and Gaudette looked good together.

Would like to see them play together again tomorrow as I an very curious now. Having three scoring duos within the top nine is a really good thing.

WHY ARE SUTTER AND BEAGLE BOTH ON THIS TEAM???
 
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mossey3535

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Feb 7, 2011
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Oh and I forgot...if you're down in post integration for no reason and the puck is passed back to the blueline and there is a screen and your default is a relaxed stance, now you have to go from below the boards eye-line to standing. Then you have to go back to a lower eye-line if you decide to butterfly. I hope you can see how constantly changing the level of your head will make head trajectory much more difficult. This is also more physically demanding which is ironic because you're generally standing up to conserve energy. There are lots of situations like this.
 

Kassattack

Low expectations
Sep 13, 2014
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Victoria
Goldobin could've had 3 assists if guys like Pearson or Graovac didn't have stone hands. He played well, even showed more defensive commitment than the past.

Play him with Pettersson and Ferland, let him be the playmaker of the line.

The team still desperately needs playmakers.
 
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Billy Kvcmu

Registered User
Dec 5, 2014
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Goldobin could've had 3 assists if guys like Pearson or Graovac didn't have stone hands. He played well, even showed more defensive commitment than the past.

Play him with Pettersson and Ferland, let him be the playmaker of the line.

The team still desperately needs playmakers.
You are definitely not watching the same game as the majority of us
 

Indiana

Registered User
Mar 17, 2008
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Canada
Problems with Demko this game:

First, you generally have four stances: 1) not ready, just watching, 2) ready but upright, 3) half-stance, ready and about halfway into your deep crouch, 4) explosive full stance, ready and fully crouched.

Second, when the goalie hugs the post on their knees, we call that post integration. You can have your post leg up (VH) or your post leg down (reverse-VH or RVH), or you can be on your feet which is the most old-school option. For any VH variation the player needs to be within two stick-lengths of you. In that scenario you are covering the entire aerial angle. It is almost impossible to score. But you are on at least one knee, which makes reacting to any lateral play slower. No matter how hard you push (you're on your knees so we would call this a down push) it's going to be slower from a VH. BUT you have the bottom of the net pretty much covered already. That is a trade-off.

Third, last two season's playoffs showed that NHL shooters have figure out post integration. It was really bad last year though with a bunch of really big goals scored when players took advantage of lazy post integration. Players have figured out that all they have to do is pass or carry the puck further out (more than two stick lengths). Even though they have a terrible angle, as long as they are on their backhand the vast majority of goalies aren't reactive from a post integration position. There are a couple of notable exceptions like Price or Bob, but for the most part post integration is a blocking move. You are giving up reaction ability for blocking area. That's the central tradeoff of goaltending. Anyhow, because it's harder to move or react, if the player can just give himself any aerial angle by shooting from further away, if they hit the top half of the net they are probably going to score. So you see guys now will not just cut straight across the crease - they will cut straight and curl out a bit. Or they will go behind the net and then curl out and away on the forehand side, get the puck just above the goal line and snap it high. A really sneaky one is on the rush if the d-man has you but you can keep your forehand free, to not cut but drift to the corner until the goalie goes into post integration too soon. Then you shoot and it's a goal. Also, if you aim at the goalie's head and hit it, you will score 95% of the time because even an NHL goalie at 6'2"+ has their head under the crossbar in post integration.

Fourth, this thing called head trajectory is by far the most important thing in goaltending. Basically (and it turns out that this is an old concept in baseball) you follow the puck with your head. Your eyes follow, then your shoulders, then your feet. The direction your head is moving (the trajectory) naturally corrects almost every issue you can have. But, it is incredibly difficult to keep doing this seemingly simple thing with consistency. And I tell you this from someone who doesn't have to practice every day or play games every other day. With that workload, mental fatigue is going to set in. You start taking shortcuts. For example, lots of drills the outcome is predictable so you do this trick where you play down to the drill. This means doing lazy things but it looks good because you already know what's going to happen. Even if you **** up post integration which happens (guy runs into you and takes you off the post, you're tired, etc), head trajectory can save you.

Demko's main issue is that he doesn't know what stance to be in at what time. Next game watch the other goalie. In this case it was Anderson who is decent but also a 10+ year veteran (16 years, I looked it up). You need to learn when to cheat, that is be in a non-stance or upright stance, because it takes much less energy. But Demko has no idea what he's doing. Many times he is going from a relaxed stance to his full stance WHILE THE PLAYER IS WINDING UP AND IS ALREADY IN A SHOOTING POSITION. This is beyond lazy. I'm sure he got away with this **** at lower levels but it just isn't going to cut it in the NHL. Only a handful of times was Demko in his full stance already before the shot came. This is basic shot preparation and it's shocking that I see it lacking on 75% of the plays tonight. The 'perfect screen' Tkachuk goal, Demko is in a relaxed stance which is warranted because Tkachuk is the screen. But he doesn't actually fight to look around the screen - he just goes down. He has no idea where the puck was released or where it was going. The entire point of taking a chance on the relaxed stance there is so you can look OVER the screen and at least see the release point. Demko also never looks UNDER a screen. As a short goalie this is the best route for me and Demko is tall so OVER is where he should look the majority of the time. But there are a lot of moving parts to get from essentially standing up and then getting to your knees in a full butterfly. At this point Demko should be reading when to look over and when to look under.

I talked about it last season - the "late set", and I see no improvement on it so far. It might actually be worse. I guess he could fix it in the regular season but he's already well into camp and working with Clark. There is no way in hell this is being advocated by Clark - look at Marky and he is consistently in a half or full crouch well before the puck is released. It's incredibly disappointing to me for Demko to come into camp and for this to still be an issue. Like this is happening ON EVERY ZONE ENTRY.

Post integration. Marky is dogging it a bit because it's preseason but last season he was consistently getting up as soon as the puck was out of the two-stick length danger zone. But even with that you see him no do the RVH as much as Demko, and when he does it he gets out of it fast. Last game I was disappointed to see Demko go to his knees when the puck was in the corner (not two stick lengths), then stay on his knees as his defenceman skated it all the way behind his own net and out the OTHE corner...his dman didn't cut up the ice after clearing the net, he legit followed the boards from one corner to the other....that is laziness. And it is dangerous because the NHL has figured out that they can exploit this kind of lack of discipline. THIS GAME I see him going to post integration automatically. He does it if his d-man has it or if there's an opposition player who has it, or if it's in the danger zone or out of the danger zone...it is a full blown bad habit.

Staying on your knees in the inappropriate situation for too long is obvious (yes, yes, phrasing lol). Even non-goalies can see it looks lazy. But where it's not obvious is how it ruins your head trajectory. Because Demko isn't ready pre-shot, he is in the wrong stance. If you're standing up, you're looking down on the puck. You then go to a butterfly because it's a very efficient save selection. But now you're tracking the puck from a different plane. Your brain has to compensate for the change in height you're looking from. So not only does it take longer to physically go from upright to on your knees, but your puck tracking suffers because it's an extra variable your brain has to calculate. Part of the reason Price is so good is because he has great tracking. And he has great tracking because he is so smooth. His head is at the same level in his ready stance as it is when he's in his butterfly. He's said that he tries to get his eye level below the dasher because the puck is coming from below there so it is easier to read the release. Going from relaxed to ready stance constantly when the puck is in a position to be released is ruining Demko's puck tracking. That's why you're supposed to be ready BEFORE the shot.

Finally, Demko opens up when he goes down. It's easier to go down in a compact way and then explode out if you can manage to react. But he tends to open up, which then opens up big holes because he is long-limbed. He actually didn't do it too too much this game but Kevin Woodley has mentioned it's a problem in the interview DL44 referred to awhile back.

Anyhow at the very least Demko has a steep learning curve at this level on just the basics. And I don't think he progressed this off-season. His edges are slightly better but I don't think that was his problem in the first place. This isn't even taking into account the kinds of physical and mental adjustment he would need to be even a platoon starter in the NHL.

What a fascinating read. Thanks for this. Demko should read it.
 

ProstheticConscience

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Apr 30, 2010
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Aren't we playing Ottawa quite a lot this preseason? Might give one a rather low opinion of future competition.

And can someone explain to me how the hell Borowiecki's name is pronounced "Gorbietski"? I was listening to Shorty and wondering who the hell he was talking about. Look, I have a dash of Ukrainian and Polish in me and have Ukrainian and Polish relatives and I never heard that shit before. The hell, man.

Not really worrying that much over the outcome as both teams were playing with all the coordination and confidence of a newborn fawn that fell into a meat grinder and was reassembled by a blind watchmaker with Parkinson's Disease. That said:

Horvat: sleepwalking through this one, but he's Horvat. He'll be fine.

Miller: just wish our brainless leader hadn't shelled out such a stupidly expensive price to get him so I could actually enjoy his presence. On a different level than his linemates tonight. Clearly ready to go.

Pearson: not getting warm fuzzies from this guy. That late season energy spurt from last year is long gone, but at least he's not Gudbranson.

Gaudette: the pitch is coming in straight down main street over the plate, just need him to swing the bat and connect. Seriously, this is his year to progress. First season out of college, got his feet wet. Next year, up and down from Utica. This year, he has to establish himself. And he absolutely deserves the shot. If is comes down to Sutter or Gaudette in the season opener, I run with Gaudette and don't think twice. Granted he still has some work to do away from the puck, but you still want to see those steps being taken, and he needs the shot in the NHL to do that.

Goldobin: the pitch is coming in straight down main street over the plate, just need him to get his batting helmet on, pick up a bat, walk over to the plate and realize he needs to swing the bat, then have someone wave their hand in his face to remind him where the pitch is coming from...seriously, I have no idea why they even bothered qualifying him at this point.

Virtanen: did he play? Noticed him about three times tonight. Another guy who doesn't get it. Obvious assets but just can't get it together. My guess is we never miss him when the team finally pulls the plug.

Schaller: exists.

Beagle: played.

MacEwen: like him, but I just don't know if he's got much at the NHL level.

Baertschi: good showing this preseason, but he's done that before. Don't really hold out much hope for him.

Sutter: also exists.

Graovac: oh yeah, he's around too. Liked him quite a bit, actually. Thought he actually applied some effort tonight. Unlike a lot of other people.

Hughes: I mean, I think he's a good prospect, I'm glad we have him...but do I think he's a game-changing talent? Not sold on that. Last preseason I went to the first game with Pettersson in the lineup, and you could tell he was different. Just instantly the best player on the team walking onto the ice. Not even close. With Hughes? Ehh...there's certainly a lot to like. His skating and puck movement is terrific, but he's tiny, he's weak, and he's got a beach ball shot. It's one thing for a forward to come in and move the Earth, it's another for a dman, especially on a team so weak on d like us. If he and Myers spend much time together it's going to be high event. Like, each player with 30, 40 points but both at -30 high event kind of thing.

Benn: meh. Not bad I guess. Could easily wind up as Benning's best NHL dman acquisition in six years. Yes, this is damning with a lot of faint praise.

Stecher: I liked this guy so much when he signed here, but I've watched him steadily beaten down since he got here and it's sad to see. I think he may have reached the summit of what he can be here.

Tanev: better stay healthy.

Chatfield: I know he completed a pass at some point tonight...though I can't recall an instance of it off the top of my head. Non-stop f***ups. Dead weight. Will be nothing.

Brisebois: If you're waiting for this guy to blossom into an NHL dman...you'll be waiting a while. Not seeing it. Pairing with him and Chatfield was a train wreck.

Demko: boy, that 2014 draft is just killing it! Not. Like the guy, but not helping his cause tonight.

Crap game. Realizing how much I wish SNet would play games with the announcers on the centre channel so you could just turn them off. Seriously Shorty, nobody gives a f*** about your Blue Jays stories.

Next.
 

NuxFan09

Registered User
Jun 8, 2008
21,649
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Merritt, BC
I didn't catch the game tonight, but happy to hear Baertschi and Gaudette looked good together.

Would like to see them play together again tomorrow as I an very curious now. Having three scoring duos within the top nine is a really good thing.

WHY ARE SUTTER AND BEAGLE BOTH ON THIS TEAM???

Ferland - Pettersson - Boeser
Pearson - Horvat - Miller
Baertschi - Gaudette
- Leivo
Eriksson - Beagle - Sutter (LMAO at the cost of this 4th line!)
Virtanen
Motte

Roussel - IR

Waive and/or demote Schaller, Goldobin, Graovac and MacEwen.

Yup, those are indeed 3 good pairs in bold. Problem is there is just an absolute glut of crappy overpaid forwards in the bottom 6. Guys need to be waived and Benning needs to make at least 1 trade. I doubt Eriksson is in any way tradeable so Sutter is the top candidate there. As for Eriksson, if Roussel is good to go for the regular season then just waive him. Send a message that his performance isn't acceptable.

God, the roster would look a lot "cleaner" if we could somehow get rid of both Eriksson and Sutter.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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Oct 1, 2017
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Aren't we playing Ottawa quite a lot this preseason? Might give one a rather low opinion of future competition.

And can someone explain to me how the hell Borowiecki's name is pronounced "Gorbietski"? I was listening to Shorty and wondering who the hell he was talking about. Look, I have a dash of Ukrainian and Polish in me and have Ukrainian and Polish relatives and I never heard that **** before. The hell, man.

Not really worrying that much over the outcome as both teams were playing with all the coordination and confidence of a newborn fawn that fell into a meat grinder and was reassembled by a blind watchmaker with Parkinson's Disease. That said:

Horvat: sleepwalking through this one, but he's Horvat. He'll be fine.

Miller: just wish our brainless leader hadn't shelled out such a stupidly expensive price to get him so I could actually enjoy his presence. On a different level than his linemates tonight. Clearly ready to go.

Pearson: not getting warm fuzzies from this guy. That late season energy spurt from last year is long gone, but at least he's not Gudbranson.

Gaudette: the pitch is coming in straight down main street over the plate, just need him to swing the bat and connect. Seriously, this is his year to progress. First season out of college, got his feet wet. Next year, up and down from Utica. This year, he has to establish himself. And he absolutely deserves the shot. If is comes down to Sutter or Gaudette in the season opener, I run with Gaudette and don't think twice. Granted he still has some work to do away from the puck, but you still want to see those steps being taken, and he needs the shot in the NHL to do that.

Goldobin: the pitch is coming in straight down main street over the plate, just need him to get his batting helmet on, pick up a bat, walk over to the plate and realize he needs to swing the bat, then have someone wave their hand in his face to remind him where the pitch is coming from...seriously, I have no idea why they even bothered qualifying him at this point.

Virtanen: did he play? Noticed him about three times tonight. Another guy who doesn't get it. Obvious assets but just can't get it together. My guess is we never miss him when the team finally pulls the plug.

Schaller: exists.

Beagle: played.

MacEwen: like him, but I just don't know if he's got much at the NHL level.

Baertschi: good showing this preseason, but he's done that before. Don't really hold out much hope for him.

Sutter: also exists.

Graovac: oh yeah, he's around too. Liked him quite a bit, actually. Thought he actually applied some effort tonight. Unlike a lot of other people.

Hughes: I mean, I think he's a good prospect, I'm glad we have him...but do I think he's a game-changing talent? Not sold on that. Last preseason I went to the first game with Pettersson in the lineup, and you could tell he was different. Just instantly the best player on the team walking onto the ice. Not even close. With Hughes? Ehh...there's certainly a lot to like. His skating and puck movement is terrific, but he's tiny, he's weak, and he's got a beach ball shot. It's one thing for a forward to come in and move the Earth, it's another for a dman, especially on a team so weak on d like us. If he and Myers spend much time together it's going to be high event. Like, each player with 30, 40 points but both at -30 high event kind of thing.

Benn: meh. Not bad I guess. Could easily wind up as Benning's best NHL dman acquisition in six years. Yes, this is damning with a lot of faint praise.

Stecher: I liked this guy so much when he signed here, but I've watched him steadily beaten down since he got here and it's sad to see. I think he may have reached the summit of what he can be here.

Tanev: better stay healthy.

Chatfield: I know he completed a pass at some point tonight...though I can't recall an instance of it off the top of my head. Non-stop ****ups. Dead weight. Will be nothing.

Brisebois: If you're waiting for this guy to blossom into an NHL dman...you'll be waiting a while. Not seeing it. Pairing with him and Chatfield was a train wreck.

Demko: boy, that 2014 draft is just killing it! Not. Like the guy, but not helping his cause tonight.

Crap game. Realizing how much I wish SNet would play games with the announcers on the centre channel so you could just turn them off. Seriously Shorty, nobody gives a **** about your Blue Jays stories.

Next.
You've got a bizarre read on Hughes..(but to to each their own)..I see him as being a total game changer.
 

DarrenX

Registered User
Apr 15, 2014
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631
Anyhow at the very least Demko has a steep learning curve at this level on just the basics. And I don't think he progressed this off-season. His edges are slightly better but I don't think that was his problem in the first place. This isn't even taking into account the kinds of physical and mental adjustment he would need to be even a platoon starter in the NHL.

This is fantastic. You could be writing for the Athletic. Thanks for contributing.

edit: I read smart, knowledgeable, data-driven analysis like this here and other places and I wonder "why aren't these guys working for the Canucks"?
 
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tantalum

Hope for the best. Expect the worst
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Apr 2, 2002
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I see what you are saying..I dont really like to pigeonhole a player in a particular role either, but I don't see Goldy as a reliable /durable bottom 6 player...(not with Green anyway)..Its not that he cant be.but he is instinctively a sniper ,..more along the lines of a Michael Grabner (without the production).

It will be interesting to see where he goes from here..if he doesn't make the cut.

Goldobin is 24 in a week and a half and has nearly 300 pro games under his belt. There isn't a great deal more developing you are going to see. I think it's entirely fair to pigeon-hole him at this point. He isn't good enough for the top 6 and really he isn't good enough for the NHL. Some pretty major and sudden development is going to have to take place to change that. I think it's fair to say at this point that he is likely not in the organizations plans moving forward.

Now he did play junior hockey in Sarnia so I don't necessarily think he'd be a lock to go to Russia/Europe if he doesn't make it, but it also wouldn't shock me. The answer to that likely lies in his AHL salary...I'm not sure if his deal is one way or two way. It's listed on cap sites as one way so that is likely the case. Unless he can sign in Europe for more take home pay I don't imagine he'll leave until the end of the season. So that gives him this season to figure things out.

This is fantastic. You could be writing for the Athletic. Thanks for contributing.

edit: I read smart, knowledgeable, data-driven analysis like this here and other places and I wonder "why aren't these guys working for the Canucks"?

Those things are only allowed if they prove what Benning already knows to be true.

I also look forward to Mossey's take on the goaltending. And the thing is, on this one it's not even a complicated or surprising thing. For goodness sakes in beer league when we see a goaltender do these things we notice and exploit it. Well try to exploit it...it is beer league in Arkansas after all.

God, the roster would look a lot "cleaner" if we could somehow get rid of both Eriksson and Sutter.

Well poor Sutter was trapped behind Crosby and Malkin and now he's trapped behind Pettersson and Horvat. He just can't catch a break. Surely someone needs a second line center! :sarcasm:

I'd throw Schaller and Beagle onto that same pile.
 
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Balls Mahoney

2015-2016 HF Premier League World Champion
Aug 14, 2008
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Problems with Demko this game:

First, you generally have four stances: 1) not ready, just watching, 2) ready but upright, 3) half-stance, ready and about halfway into your deep crouch, 4) explosive full stance, ready and fully crouched.

Second, when the goalie hugs the post on their knees, we call that post integration. You can have your post leg up (VH) or your post leg down (reverse-VH or RVH), or you can be on your feet which is the most old-school option. For any VH variation the player needs to be within two stick-lengths of you. In that scenario you are covering the entire aerial angle. It is almost impossible to score. But you are on at least one knee, which makes reacting to any lateral play slower. No matter how hard you push (you're on your knees so we would call this a down push) it's going to be slower from a VH. BUT you have the bottom of the net pretty much covered already. That is a trade-off.

Third, last two season's playoffs showed that NHL shooters have figure out post integration. It was really bad last year though with a bunch of really big goals scored when players took advantage of lazy post integration. Players have figured out that all they have to do is pass or carry the puck further out (more than two stick lengths). Even though they have a terrible angle, as long as they are on their backhand the vast majority of goalies aren't reactive from a post integration position. There are a couple of notable exceptions like Price or Bob, but for the most part post integration is a blocking move. You are giving up reaction ability for blocking area. That's the central tradeoff of goaltending. Anyhow, because it's harder to move or react, if the player can just give himself any aerial angle by shooting from further away, if they hit the top half of the net they are probably going to score. So you see guys now will not just cut straight across the crease - they will cut straight and curl out a bit. Or they will go behind the net and then curl out and away on the forehand side, get the puck just above the goal line and snap it high. A really sneaky one is on the rush if the d-man has you but you can keep your forehand free, to not cut but drift to the corner until the goalie goes into post integration too soon. Then you shoot and it's a goal. Also, if you aim at the goalie's head and hit it, you will score 95% of the time because even an NHL goalie at 6'2"+ has their head under the crossbar in post integration.

Fourth, this thing called head trajectory is by far the most important thing in goaltending. Basically (and it turns out that this is an old concept in baseball) you follow the puck with your head. Your eyes follow, then your shoulders, then your feet. The direction your head is moving (the trajectory) naturally corrects almost every issue you can have. But, it is incredibly difficult to keep doing this seemingly simple thing with consistency. And I tell you this from someone who doesn't have to practice every day or play games every other day. With that workload, mental fatigue is going to set in. You start taking shortcuts. For example, lots of drills the outcome is predictable so you do this trick where you play down to the drill. This means doing lazy things but it looks good because you already know what's going to happen. Even if you **** up post integration which happens (guy runs into you and takes you off the post, you're tired, etc), head trajectory can save you.

Demko's main issue is that he doesn't know what stance to be in at what time. Next game watch the other goalie. In this case it was Anderson who is decent but also a 10+ year veteran (16 years, I looked it up). You need to learn when to cheat, that is be in a non-stance or upright stance, because it takes much less energy. But Demko has no idea what he's doing. Many times he is going from a relaxed stance to his full stance WHILE THE PLAYER IS WINDING UP AND IS ALREADY IN A SHOOTING POSITION. This is beyond lazy. I'm sure he got away with this **** at lower levels but it just isn't going to cut it in the NHL. Only a handful of times was Demko in his full stance already before the shot came. This is basic shot preparation and it's shocking that I see it lacking on 75% of the plays tonight. The 'perfect screen' Tkachuk goal, Demko is in a relaxed stance which is warranted because Tkachuk is the screen. But he doesn't actually fight to look around the screen - he just goes down. He has no idea where the puck was released or where it was going. The entire point of taking a chance on the relaxed stance there is so you can look OVER the screen and at least see the release point. Demko also never looks UNDER a screen. As a short goalie this is the best route for me and Demko is tall so OVER is where he should look the majority of the time. But there are a lot of moving parts to get from essentially standing up and then getting to your knees in a full butterfly. At this point Demko should be reading when to look over and when to look under.

I talked about it last season - the "late set", and I see no improvement on it so far. It might actually be worse. I guess he could fix it in the regular season but he's already well into camp and working with Clark. There is no way in hell this is being advocated by Clark - look at Marky and he is consistently in a half or full crouch well before the puck is released. It's incredibly disappointing to me for Demko to come into camp and for this to still be an issue. Like this is happening ON EVERY ZONE ENTRY.

Post integration. Marky is dogging it a bit because it's preseason but last season he was consistently getting up as soon as the puck was out of the two-stick length danger zone. But even with that you see him no do the RVH as much as Demko, and when he does it he gets out of it fast. Last game I was disappointed to see Demko go to his knees when the puck was in the corner (not two stick lengths), then stay on his knees as his defenceman skated it all the way behind his own net and out the OTHE corner...his dman didn't cut up the ice after clearing the net, he legit followed the boards from one corner to the other....that is laziness. And it is dangerous because the NHL has figured out that they can exploit this kind of lack of discipline. THIS GAME I see him going to post integration automatically. He does it if his d-man has it or if there's an opposition player who has it, or if it's in the danger zone or out of the danger zone...it is a full blown bad habit.

Staying on your knees in the inappropriate situation for too long is obvious (yes, yes, phrasing lol). Even non-goalies can see it looks lazy. But where it's not obvious is how it ruins your head trajectory. Because Demko isn't ready pre-shot, he is in the wrong stance. If you're standing up, you're looking down on the puck. You then go to a butterfly because it's a very efficient save selection. But now you're tracking the puck from a different plane. Your brain has to compensate for the change in height you're looking from. So not only does it take longer to physically go from upright to on your knees, but your puck tracking suffers because it's an extra variable your brain has to calculate. Part of the reason Price is so good is because he has great tracking. And he has great tracking because he is so smooth. His head is at the same level in his ready stance as it is when he's in his butterfly. He's said that he tries to get his eye level below the dasher because the puck is coming from below there so it is easier to read the release. Going from relaxed to ready stance constantly when the puck is in a position to be released is ruining Demko's puck tracking. That's why you're supposed to be ready BEFORE the shot.

Finally, Demko opens up when he goes down. It's easier to go down in a compact way and then explode out if you can manage to react. But he tends to open up, which then opens up big holes because he is long-limbed. He actually didn't do it too too much this game but Kevin Woodley has mentioned it's a problem in the interview DL44 referred to awhile back.

Anyhow at the very least Demko has a steep learning curve at this level on just the basics. And I don't think he progressed this off-season. His edges are slightly better but I don't think that was his problem in the first place. This isn't even taking into account the kinds of physical and mental adjustment he would need to be even a platoon starter in the NHL.

I f***ing love HFCanucks. The analysis and knowledge here is literally the best in the world for a hockey fan. Thanks so much for writing all of this, I learned a lot and really enjoyed it.
 
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Balls Mahoney

2015-2016 HF Premier League World Champion
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I don't know man. That post sounded toxic to me.

Don't drown me in your toxic patriarchal bro culture, CIS white males. I'll have you know I'm a huge WNBA fan and I wear a p***y hat every day. NPR never leaves my ears and CNN never leaves my eyes. I'm so progressive I cut Balls out of my name and changed it to a cause I'm an activist in.
 

THRILLHOIAF

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interesting game


-Horvat played like he was still hungover from the Elton John concert - playing off instinct but oh boy that had to have been one of his worst games as a Canuck (good thing its preseason) but you can tell he was checked out
-Miller his speed and game sense is unreal ... each passing game that first round pick is getting less egregious
-Pearson; this years Leipsic, only much more expensive. I dont see that same chemistry; looks slow

-Gaudette - outplaying the majority right now, but I still think he's on his way to getting 1st line minutes in the AHL
-Baertschi - looked ok, nice to see him have chemistry with Gaudette but I dont think he's lighting the world on fire
-MacEwen - had his best game of the preseason but still didnt show that he could belong outside of a 4th line role - plays physical which is something seriously lacking from this squad - scrap was pretty bad haha - still like him as the 1st winger callup

-Schaller - invisible
-Beagle - actually played a solid game
-Graovac - looked good with Beagle, was pissed he didnt get pulled by concussion spotters after getting ragdolled on the boards - any guy falling over on wobbly legs after taking a headshot should be pulled regardless if he's 6'5"

-Goldobin - constantly looks like he's playing tilted. Had a few decent chances in the offensive zone but didnt capitalize....looked VERY tired on a couple changes and backchecks which scares me given his "i was tired after 15 games" comment at camp
-Sutter - invisible
-Virtanen - saw him pull up on what would've been a couple good hits along the boards and I knew his time with the org was probably toast. If he's not playing physical he needs to be a playmaker and leading a rush, but he's doing literally nothing


-Benn - looked OKm he and Stecher did NOT look good though
-Stecher - pretty bad game overall, looks bad on powerplay unit 2 when all he does is get to neutral ice and drop the puck off for the center - so predictable and that unit got nothing going

-Hughes - great speed, but you can tell he needs someone else with speed and the vision to match on the ice with him for it to pay off. Its like the team stops skating and watches him wheel instead of moving their feet to set up
-Tanev - boy if he gets injured....yikes... he's looked really solid this preseason and IMO will be a great pairing with Hughes.... but you just know if he goes down everything goes down the tube

-Brisebois - everyone here shitting on him, but given who he was partenered with, I thought he had a good game, that one end-to-end rush was great (if only he could've set something up at the end for a decent payoff) - i like that he's finally showing off HIS game at the NHL* level rather than whatever it was he was doing last season in his call-up stint
-Chatfield - repeatedly stepped up to lay a hit and skated head first into guys shoulders/elbows etc. then had to force his team to play D coverage for him.... genuinely scared for who they put him with down on the farm because he plays the same game down there and it doesnt work there either.
 

Balls Mahoney

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You've got a bizarre read on Hughes..(but to to each their own)..I see him as being a total game changer.

I'm honestly not the biggest fan of Hughes either. I think he's going to struggle quite a bit this season and I think he's going to be overwhelmed a lot in his first year or two. I also think if I'm a diesel'd up grinder I would make an effort to blast this kid into the boards every opportunity I got. How is this kid who looks like he's the size of a football going to handle that around game 50?

Yes, he's a very talented puck moving defenseman but I think there's going to be a lot more growing pains with him than people anticipate. I think his size is going to be a big problem for him. I think the Canucks are so incompetent of an organization that he's going to have a lot more trouble than necessary reaching his potential here. I am thrilled he's here, obviously he has first pairing potential but I think the hype and expectations on him are completely out of control because there's not a whole lot else to hype in this organization. And this type of situation usually hurts players rather than nurture.

Again, this is why I think it's completely Pejorative Slured we let Luke Schenn go. Not only was he the perfect gritty defensive defenseman to compliment Hughes and we all witnessed how well that pairing worked last season. But he was also a former third overall pick who fell short of his expectations in a hockey mad city and would be the PERFECT guy to mentor Hughes. But no, f*** it. Let's waste almost three times the money on Jordie Benn.

This management group is f***ing brain dead.
 

tantalum

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Don't drown me in your toxic patriarchal bro culture, CIS white males. I'll have you know I'm a huge WNBA fan and I wear a ***** hat every day. NPR never leaves my ears and CNN never leaves my eyes. I'm so progressive I cut Balls out of my name and changed it to a cause I'm an activist in.

I really hope your previous board name wasn't PalmBenningBalls....
 

Fire Benning

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Oct 2, 2016
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If this team has any sense Gaudette will make the team over Sutter or Beagle, I have my doubts though..
 

tantalum

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IMac was on the radio this morning saying it's 'great' that Gaudette will be going to the AHL and that he never had any chance of making the team, so I think we can pretty much say that he isn't making the team.

Remember how we were supposed to witness a competitive camp? Lots of guys pushing for a spot? Instead the only player you saw pushing for a spot was Gaudette and outside of last night his push has been in terms of effort as I think he really struggled without the puck. And he was a guy who played nearly 60 NHL games last year. Nothing from anybody else and really you have a couple players that seem like they are actively playing their way out of the NHL. Maybe more than a couple. Very little of this camp made me excited about the season to come.
 

Balls Mahoney

2015-2016 HF Premier League World Champion
Aug 14, 2008
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Remember how we were supposed to witness a competitive camp? Lots of guys pushing for a spot? Instead the only player you saw pushing for a spot was Gaudette and outside of last night his push has been in terms of effort as I think he really struggled without the puck. And he was a guy who played nearly 60 NHL games last year. Nothing from anybody else and really you have a couple players that seem like they are actively playing their way out of the NHL. Maybe more than a couple. Very little of this camp made me excited about the season to come.

Dude they push this meme every year and it's the same bullshit every year. I'm still hot about Shirokov not making this team. What fascinates me is the complete lack of enthusiasm from the Canucks faithful. Virtually no one is excited about this season or this team aside from watching the few young players we have. It's become a grind to become a Canucks fan because it's the same crap over and over every year.

I've been creeping here long enough to know thats Balls Mahoney.

That's what it says on my driver's license.
 

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