Seattle V: Make It So(Do)...

[Fugu]

Seattle is not getting NHL expansion anytime soon due to no arena so they are no longer front runners.

https://twitter.com/GeoffBakerTIMES/status/459350355974041601
https://twitter.com/GeoffBakerTIMES/status/459351110047006720

Bettman told me #NHL open to arena sites elsewhere, but right now Chris Hansen controls only #Seattle project and little is happening.

Yes, and that's Bettman's volley that someone needs to do something, or get out of the way. Realistically, Hansen should know if he has any shot whatsoever at an NBA team. That league can/should be able to tell him if expansion is in the cards IF he can come up with the right price.

Given Cuban's recent comments about $1 billion for a team, and even if that comes down--- that is some serious coin. You factor in the arena, land he already owns and thus money spent, and the ROI if an expansion team is $750 million-ish (taking the lowest value being the Bucks for $550 million and Cuban's high water mark).... This is not the NFL. I'd walk. The new owners need to have some shot at viability, not simply held over a barrel to line the current NBA owners pockets.

More on that in the next post:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1655427

 

[gstommylee]

Yes, and that's Bettman's volley that someone needs to do something, or get out of the way. Realistically, Hansen should know if he has any shot whatsoever at an NBA team. That league can/should be able to tell him if expansion is in the cards IF he can come up with the right price.

Given Cuban's recent comments about $1 billion for a team, and even if that comes down--- that is some serious coin. You factor in the arena, land he already owns and thus money spent, and the ROI if an expansion team is $750 million-ish (taking the lowest value being the Bucks for $550 million and Cuban's high water mark).... This is not the NFL. I'd walk. The new owners need to have some shot at viability, not simply held over a barrel to line the current NBA owners pockets.

More on that in the next post:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1655427

That's the issue NBA won't even consider expansion until the new TV deal is done and the bucks issue is taken care off and thats if they consider it at all after those 2 thigns are done.

Even if the NBA has to relocate the bucks who knows who will end up with that team.

 

[cheswick]

That's the issue NBA won't even consider expansion until the new TV deal is done and the bucks issue is taken care off and thats if they consider it at all after those 2 thigns are done.

Even if the NBA has to relocate the bucks who knows who will end up with that team.

Vancouver

 

[gstommylee]

Vancouver

I don't see Vancouver out bidding Hansen and balmer though.

 

[Killion]

Yes, and that's Bettman's volley that someone needs to do something, or get out of the way. Realistically, Hansen should know if he has any shot whatsoever at an NBA team. That league can/should be able to tell him if expansion is in the cards IF he can come up with the right price.

More on that in the next post:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1655427

... you mean my post? This one? Because ya, this is all just insane as was (IMO) his bidding north of $500M on the Kings. Beyond insane. No way in his lifetime he ever see's anything, absolutely no ROI and thats provided the gravy train comes to town. I can well envision a situation whereby he puts the squeeze on any NHL franchise taking up tenancy ala Jerry Colangelo in Phx when he had debt up the ying-yang with the then new AWA Arena. No way no how is an NBA franchise worth that kind of money. Not buying it. Setting himself up for a World of trouble, even the 2nd generation of ownership who buys when Hansens forced to sell drowning in debt service fee's if not able to buy at a substantial discount also looking at a nasty situation.

So no. Give up the Ghost, go away, make room for new blood with enough capital to get an arena going with the NHL your objective. The NBA has treated Seattle shabbily, left them with an arena in which its only purpose is BB when years ago it was in fact hockey friendly. Why anyone would want a part of that sort of intransigence again, the whole mess of a situation in Sacramento, just no idea. Blinded by a passion for a sport & league that obviously doesnt or cant or wont be making any practical accommodations. Meanwhile, the NHL riding on the coat tails of a totally dysfunctional situation. Not how things work. Not how the NHL's going to wind up in Seattle & have a better than fighting chance to actually make it.

 

[gstommylee]

btw The 625m price Hansen put on the kings was full variation of the team. He was only looking to acquire 65% of the team. Maloofs share + one other minority owner.

Hansen was only going to write a check for 406m for that 65% +17m for that 7% that was in bankruptcy.

 

[gstommylee]

I like bettman more than i like stern when he was NBA commissioner.

https://twitter.com/tfmoore/statuses/459328551318487040
Tom Moore @tfmoore 5h
Gary Bettman: Key Arena isn't ideal or close to ideal for NHL in Seattle. Expansion there held up by "building uncertainty"

 

[brewski420]

Not a surprise about NHL expansion but still disappointing. Hansen seems to be more of a stumbling block than someone to bring the NHL here. Need someone else to step up on a NHL only plan w/o him I guess. Him owning land is a problem, maybe another location?

 

[gstommylee]

Not a surprise about NHL expansion but still disappointing. Hansen seems to be more of a stumbling block than someone to bring the NHL here. Need someone else to step up on a NHL only plan w/o him I guess. Him owning land is a problem, maybe another location?

I don't think its so much Hansen being the problem

There are 3 issues here

1) agreement between hansen and NHL group over funding
2) agreement between NHL group and Seattle over funding
3) agreement between Seattle and NHL group on other issues like personal guarantees like hansen agreed to.

Issue is mostly #2 and #3 as being the problem.

Remember we are talking about going from 200m to 80m or less in public funding.

We need someone to step up and throw 300-350m into the arena to appease Seattle. The whole NBA first before arena is built even if Hansen wants to built it to be empty there is still seattle that doesn't want it to be empty.

 

[cutchemist42]

I agree that I really don't see the big need for wanting to get into a league like the NBA when you see how it operates, and how it treated the city in the past.

I also don't buy a lot of what Bettman says publicly, but that line of thinking in those tweets to me sounds valid. This NBA dream is holding up any chance of putting together another bid built around the NHL.

 

[gstommylee]

I agree that I really don't see the big need for wanting to get into a league like the NBA when you see how it operates, and how it treated the city in the past.

I also don't buy a lot of what Bettman says publicly, but that line of thinking in those tweets to me sounds valid. This NBA dream is holding up any chance of putting together another bid built around the NHL.

Its not the NBA that's holding it up. Its seattle.

Even if Hansen was willing to build it to be empty but if seattle says you need a NBA team before we provide funds then you have no choice.

The issue is the public portion of it. IF Seattle agreed to 115m 5m county and hansen and NHL group split the private amount the the MOU would been changed to allow NHL first to built it. There lies the problem Seattle does not want to provide 115m to ti.

 

[Fugu]

We're getting a lot of crossover posting now between the Seattle thread and this one. We can let everyone finish their comments, but we may move some of this over to the Seattle thread and shut this one down since there's no real news yet about any expansion cities.


Just a head's up.

 

[Killion]

Its not the NBA that's holding it up. Its seattle.... Even if Hansen was willing to build it to be empty but if seattle says you need a NBA team before we provide funds then you have no choice.

Well, yes, it is the NBA thats not only held it up but slammed the door shut rendering moot the hypothesis that Seattle & King County would require team first, money to follow. If someone is actually willing to drop $600M on an NBA franchise for Seattle, then they should have no problem dropping $450M+ on an arena and out of their own pocket.

See, whats happening here is circulus in probando. Paradoxical thinking by Hansen/Ballmer & Seattle. Circular logic. Polysyllogisms. Propositions forming a sequence of syllogisms together one after the other followed by the next proposition which is a pretext for the next & so on. However with the NBA having filled the moat, filled it with Crocodiles & hauled up the drawbridge, bolted the doors & windows shut, Hansen & Ballmer rather than retreating in a dignified manner have entered into a sort of siege mentality. Holding the people & city hostage to their already failed ambitions. Dead but un-dead. Will not walk into the light.

Contemporaneously we have whats called The Woozle Effect taking place. Term coined by A.A. Milne in Winnie the Pooh. Citations of Gary Bettmans quotes. Highly speculative musings written & or attributed to accredited media pundits & talking heads. No hard evidence, non-facts repeated ad nauseum, non-facts becoming factoids and factoids then becoming facts themselves misleading individuals, groups, many here included. Bottom-line. If these Woozles exist, or as they were formerly called Fuzzie Wuzzies, India & the British Empire, then I would suggest they manifest themselves & damn sharp about it. Mount their White Rhino's & charge the Castle over-running Hansens broken troops & dreams because this siege must end and tout sweet if Seattles to even be in a position to host an NHL franchise within say the next 3-4 seasons.... yes, really quite elementary when you get right down to it. Winnie the Pooh. All you need to know right there in one book, set for life.

 

[Fugu]

Heffalumps and woozles, huh?

 

[KevFu]

Looking at the divisions you would almost think that they would put a team west coast and then a team for the central. Las Vegas rankles me. I don't care if the casinos guarantee sell outs for comps to whales It appears way too much of a conflict of interest with the gambling interests. The NHL can NOT afford that. I would rather have two teams in Seattle and Portland personally. Problem is what team would you move from the Pacific.

They could do two western teams with Colorado sliding into the central.

I don't see a conflict of interest with gambling interests. Half the NHL does "Casino Night" in the offseason, many NHL teams have advertising deals with casinos, and at least one NHL arena was financed using casino revenues (PIT).

You (and probably most people) have the backwards way of looking at Nevada's legal sports gambling as a reason for concern:

If there was a team in Vegas, home and visiting players would gamble, maybe on their own teams and possibly throw games to make money! But that fact is, there should be a bigger concern EVERYWHERE ELSE BUT VEGAS for that.

#1 - Casinos don't like to lose money. You have billion-dollar corporations, paying oddsmakers to set lines, track the bets and adjust the line to keep even money on each side of the line.

If there's a sudden influx of money on one side -- for a Las Vegas NHL game for example -- the casino is going to yank the game off the board and call the NHL immediately.

#2 - We live in the modern era. The 1919 Black Sox were offered $10,000 to fix the World Series. That was double the salary of one participant, and well over double the other seven participants YEARLY salaries. It would cost "noticeable" money to fix a professional sports game.

#3 - The risk/reward for an NHL player is just flat out stupid. For an NHL player to be willing to throw games, they'd need enough money to make it worth the risk of getting caught. Someone who needs the money isn't going to be good enough to actually fix a game on his own, and someone capable of fixing the game on his own (an aging goaltender) is probably going to need millions to throw a game… what gambler in his right mind is putting down multi-millions on a regular season NHL game?

#1+#2+#3 - It would cost "ridiculously noticeable money" for an athlete to fix a pro sports game, and they'd be instantly caught if the bets occurred in a Las Vegas casino.

The "fears" of a pro sports team in Las Vegas having a scandal should be virtually nil.


The biggest reason no one has gone to Vegas is the APPEARANCE of condoning gambling. Considering how many franchise have casinos as sponsors, the ship has sailed on that one.

 

[PCSPounder]

I don't see Vancouver out bidding Hansen and balmer though.

I don't see Vancouver outbidding a theoretical Tulsa ownership. Why compare with Seattle?

 

[Zorbane]

I don't know if I've ever been more confused when reading this thread!

 

[Ryan34222]

this is interesting. notwithstanding the important differences between relocation and expansion, when it comes to indemnification, Hammer/GTA2 are the most relevant. we heard rumour in 2009 that Balsillie was prepared to go as high as $100M in relo fees to bring the coyotes to town, on top of the $212.5M BK bid to Moyes (and presumably, also on top of the $25M to Glendale). reading between the lines, this might suggest that that $100M was also to cover indemnification to the leafs and sabres, although all we ever heard officially was that he would be prepared to "compensate" them, not how much or from which pot of money.

let's not forget that balsillie had a signed deal to buy the penguins in 2006 but backed out when bettman threw a hissy fit and put up roadblocks to prevent balsillie from pulling an Al Davis.

in sum, it seems possible that the expansion fee for a team in the hammer could include payments to the leafs and sabres. now, im not suggesting that balsillie is still the major player in the hammer, but perhaps the total price for expansion there might not be as high as many folks are suggesting, if it were to include payments to mlse and pegula, or even more explosively, local TV rights tossed into a divorce settlement on Bay St.

Hi GS, if I remember correctly, and likely im not, it was the NHL wanting 100million.. Saint Jimmy B was around 12 mil lol

 

[Fugu]

I don't know if I've ever been more confused when reading this thread!

May be my fault, Zorbane. I moved some posts out of the Expansion thread per Shoalts. It was becoming all Seattle talk. Maybe I should move the rest of it here because there's little else to the original article by Shoalts.

 

[Llama19]

Heffalumps and woozles, huh?

Do not blame us for the NBA's problems...

 

[Killion]

Heffalumps and woozles, huh?

Think it over, think it under.
A.A. Milne

 

[gstommylee]

Well, yes, it is the NBA thats not only held it up but slammed the door shut rendering moot the hypothesis that Seattle & King County would require team first, money to follow. If someone is actually willing to drop $600M on an NBA franchise for Seattle, then they should have no problem dropping $450M+ on an arena and out of their own pocket.

I wasn't talking about the arena plan not happening due to no NBA team. I was talking about the arena plan not being modified to allow a NHL team to built and that still goes squarely onto the city. Seattle does not want to fund an arena that is going to be empty period and if they are going to fund an arena its going to be on their terms.

The fact Hansen had to cave and give everything the city wanted to even get it this far is how difficult to get anything approved in Seattle. I am serious when i say Seattle is the can't do city. I just pray Hansen gives up and walks away instead of making us wait 3 years til the MOU expires.

We just need a Hansen like person but for the NHL but sadly i don't see that person coming out.

So back to following Colorado in which i can only following them on internet and when any of their games are on tv channels i have.

 

[Killion]

I don't know if I've ever been more confused when reading this thread!

May be my fault, Zorbane...

No, I think that would be my fault Fugu.... And if I had one question for Christopher Rob... err...Hansen, it would be:

Did you ever stop to think, then forget to start again?
A.A. Milne

 

[gstommylee]

The only way i see NHL first happening is someone of the 4 groups involved here has to change their minds. I don't see it being hansen at this moment although Seattle city council could if we get people in there thats more pro arena/pro NHL at the 2015 election which everyone is up for election. Although it can also go the other way in which case MOU/arena deal will just expire and Hansen walks away.

 

[brewski420]

Baker on KJR 950 right now. Can't listen going in to a meeting.