Player Discussion Sean Monahan

[Flames Fanatic]

This.

As I've said several times before, it's not that he's not a good centre, it's whether or not we're sinking in the next 10+ years of this basically finished rebuild around this core. And it's as you say, there aren't many cup teams or perenial top teams that win and or contend without a franchise centeman. Canucks did it throughout Linden's career, but made it to the cup finals once largely due to Pavel Bure and Kirk McClean. And I wouldn't put Sean even on Linden's level.

Anyway, we'll see, he's had a pretty good start so far. Last year he had some lengthy stretches of near invisibility and the year before was worse. Maybe it's trending in the right direction though.

I promise everyone if he has a decently conisistent year I'll call it that.

I'd like to see the numbers on lengthy stretches of invisibility...

Especially once you factor in his injuries that he played through for weeks.

 

[Rubi]

He wasn't listed in SN's top 20 centres.

No he wasn't but if he hadn't been playing hurt for so much of last year I suspect he would have. Frankly its a marvel, considering how hurt he was, that he was still able to score 31 goals and 33 assists before the team finally shut him down after his 74th game.
I fully expect he'll make the list this year, and quite comfortably too.

 

[Anglesmith]

I get people looking at recent Cup winners and wondering if Monahan is good enough, but that only tells part of the story. Vegas were favourites to win the Cup (at the start of the final) last year with William Karlsson. The Preds stormed their way to the Final the year before with Ryan Johansen, and look capable of the same feat this year. Neither of these guys are elite first line centres, and both have been criticised at various times in their careers.

You can't judge a team by one player, that's myopic. The "winning formula" is redefined every year based on who actually won. Look how fast "you can't win with Ovi" became no longer a thing.

The only thing that will actually determine whether or not we can win with Monahan centring the first line is watching. There is simply no magic formula that can give you a yes or no.

 

[InfinityIggy]

The thing about needing an elite C to win a cup I don’t disagree with outright. However, a lot of these guys who end up being an ‘elite’ C aren’t viewed that way until all of a sudden they are in spitting distance of a cup. I am hugely reminded of Toews whenever this topic comes up.

 

[Volica]

The thing about needing an elite C to win a cup I don’t disagree with outright. However, a lot of these guys who end up being an ‘elite’ C aren’t viewed that way until all of a sudden they are in spitting distance of a cup. I am hugely reminded of Toews whenever this topic comes up.

Don’t even have to look that far back.
How many people would have Kuz in their top 15 centres in the nhl last season before the playoffs.

God knows I’m not a huge Mony guy. But the dude delivers scoring, the hardest thing to do in this league. He’s got two line mates that cover up his bigger flaws, and the guy just produces.

If Flames got to the playoffs and won a cup, with Mony picking up like 28 points, this board would sing a completely different story.

 

[DFF]

II was and am pretty convinced Monahan was the third wheel on that line. Which I believe is in contrast with your assertion.

Sure, I noticed despite Ferland is on the hottest streak of his life, he is still behind in scoring to the 3rd line winger tap-in specialist....

 

[Calculon]

It's not that it's absolutely impossible to win everything with Monahan-Backlund-Jankowski as the top three centres; it's just that it's probably going to be considerably more challenging. The centre position is by far and away the most important position upfront and as a result, deficits there are magnified. In that situation, you need all the other pieces (i.e. goaltending) to compensate and plug the gaps.

The best model is probably the Hawks because their centre depth was atrocious relative to most cup winners. It was Toews and then a bunch of makeshift pieces, like wingers converted into centres in Sharp or guys like Bolland, Handzus, Kruger, and an almost finish Brad Richards or Vermette. They won because of overwhelming depth (at least in 2010 and 2013) which is something the Flames might be able to replicate.

 

[Rubi]

Sure, I noticed despite Ferland is on the hottest streak of his life, he is still behind in scoring to the 3rd line winger tap-in specialist....

Thats because he's stuck with playing with plumbers like Aho and Teravainen.

Oh wait.. somethings wrong here.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Monahan is better than Ryjo, defensively as well. I don’t even think Johansen is all that great in his own end. Honestly he’s lazy at time, something that I wouldn’t ever use to describe Mony. Treliving went out and got Lindholm who covers for Sean’s shortcomings and look at the results so far.

Monahan is not an elite C, but I can’t understand the need to pile on the guy. The Flames have insulated him the right way and as AS stated, we should be mostly concerned with our entire roster, Sean is definitely not a problem.

 

[JPeeper]

I don't care if I get flak for this, but if Chicago can win 3 cups with Toews then the Flames can win 3 cups with Monahan. Toews had the one playoff run where he was an absolute beast and won the Conn Smythe for Chicago's first Cup, but their 2nd Cup it was Kane who went best mode and Toews only had 3 goals and 14 points in 23 games. And their third Cup Toews was 21 points in 23 games.

I see no reason why Monahan can't have similar numbers to Toews outside of Toews first Cup run.

My point is that Chicago won because they had other game breakers on their team, like f***ing Patrick Kane, Keith, good depth etc. not just because they had a good #1 center.

Gaudreau and Tkachuk are IMO just as big of game breakers as Kane is and I see no reason why Gaudreau or Tkachuk can't do what Kane did for Chicago or Gio do what Keith did.

 

[SKRusty]

Monahan is better than Ryjo, defensively as well. I don’t even think Johansen is all that great in his own end. Honestly he’s lazy at time, something that I wouldn’t ever use to describe Mony. Treliving went out and got Lindholm who covers for Sean’s shortcomings and look at the results so far.

Monahan is not an elite C, but I can’t understand the need to pile on the guy. The Flames have insulated him the right way and as AS stated, we should be mostly concerned with our entire roster, Sean is definitely not a problem.

I think Monahan is put under the microscope too much here on the boards. Considering Monahan spent over 2.5 years with that wrist and is on par with many franchise players in the NHL I find much of the discussion here moot.

Here is the stats for the first 5 years in the NHL for 4 great players and Sean. I find Schiefele and Toews as a good basis for comparison as they were on a rebuilding teams to start their careers as well. Keep in mind Toews had Kane from day 1. If Monahan would have played with Johnny in the first season and a half how many more points would he have?

• Monahan 281 points
• Seguin 282 points
• Tavares 315 points
• Scheifele 252 points
• Toews 324 points

Toews and Monahan are the only 2 that broke 30 goals twice in their first five years.

I think the largest issue with Monahan's game is his game is more based on hockey IQ other than maybe Toews than any other on this list. Monahan is a student of the game and interview of coach after coach, and trainer after trainer all they talk about when they speak of Sean is they can't believe his dedication to improving and learning more about the game.

Not ELITE my arse!

 

[Rubi]

Actually, it's because he isn't elite.

He's a 30+ goal scoring talent, and those certainly are not dime-a-dozen, but overall he's not a player who would be the best center on 90%+ of playoff teams and 70%+ of non-playoff team...
The harsh reality is that he's essentially a rich man's version of Matt Stajan...
...the ultimate line for Gaudreau would be Gaudreau-MacKinnon-Ferland (or the closest thing the Flames have ever had which was Gaudreau-Bennett-Ferland).

 

[The Gnome]

Actually, it's because he isn't elite.

He's a 30+ goal scoring talent, and those certainly are not dime-a-dozen, but overall he's not a player who would be the best center on 90%+ of playoff teams and 70%+ of non-playoff teams.

People think plenty of non-flashy players are still elite. Kopitar. Bergeron. Wheeler. Backstrom. Getzlaf. People don't need him to be flashier, they need him to be more effective, shift-for-shift. The harsh reality is that he's essentially a rich man's version of Matt Stajan but with much, much better shooting skill. And like a young 57 point Matt Stajan, his production isn't quite indicative of his impact.



The best line I have seen Gaudreau play on was Gaudreau-Hopkins-MacKinnon and that was despite Hopkins being a relative weak link. I think the ultimate line for Gaudreau would be Gaudreau-MacKinnon-Ferland (or the closest thing the Flames have ever had which was Gaudreau-Bennett-Ferland) or Gaudreau-Malkin-MacKinnon. Anyways, the thing that stood out about Gaudreau-Hopkins-MacKinnon was that Gaudreau was not a one-dimensional playmaker, he was a more complete player because MacKinnon seriously drove play, and that was also the case when he had the benefit of Ferland last year, and it's been slightly but less-so the case with Lindholm this year. There is no justification for not having multiple playmakers on a line. It's asinine to say one guy should dilly-dally with the puck while everyone else watches.

I stopped reading when you said rich man's Stajan. For a guy who trumpets himself as being unbiased and basing his insights on logic/statistics, your blind hatred for Monahan is well...Amusing. I guess before you wrote an essay, I should have clarified that Monahan is NEAR ELITE. That was a misprint by me.

 

[tmurfin]

Ugh, this will never end huh. Monahans going to be that player that sticks with us forever, and when he's finally done or we ship him elsewhere, the fan base will realize the impact he had on this team. The dude does not deserve the flak he gets around here. It's almost nauseating at this point.

 

[Kahvi]

Monahan is not flashy so it looks like what he does is easy. Like those easy tap-in goals in front of the net, easy, anyone could do it. And 5 minutes later you scream "how the hell that did not go in" at your TV and Lindholm or Brodie

 

[Ace Rimmer]

"Rich man's Stajan." That's a new one.

 

[DCDM]

Actually, it's because he isn't elite.

He's a 30+ goal scoring talent, and those certainly are not dime-a-dozen, but overall he's not a player who would be the best center on 90%+ of playoff teams and 70%+ of non-playoff teams.

People think plenty of non-flashy players are still elite. Kopitar. Bergeron. Wheeler. Backstrom. Getzlaf. People don't need him to be flashier, they need him to be more effective, shift-for-shift. The harsh reality is that he's essentially a rich man's version of Matt Stajan but with much, much better shooting skill. And like a young 57 point Matt Stajan, his production isn't quite indicative of his impact.

This is the funniest ****ing thing I've ever read.

 

[Mr Snrub]

"Rich man's Stajan." That's a new one.

Maybe like a Jeff Bezos's Matt Stajan.

 

[DomBarr]

He wasn't listed in SN's top 20 centres.

LOL...the same top 20 that had Draisatl in it when Draisatl predominantly played wing last year...I laughed hard on that one...every center listed had their stats and crap except for Draisatl...

 

[Flames Fanatic]

LOL...the same top 20 that had Draisatl in it when Draisatl predominantly played wing last year...I laughed hard on that one...every center listed had their stats and crap except for Draisatl...

And he wasn't the only one who has played wing, especially when you stretch it over 3 seasons like they claim. Stamkos, Kuznetsov, and to a lesser extent Trocheck have all spent time on the wing in the last three years.

The list is also dependent on advanced stats calculating defensive acumen, which I'm not sure I entirely agree with all of them in terms of absolute truth for some guys.

Is Monahan better defensively than all the guys on that list? f*** no. Would I take him defensively over some of them? Yes.

 

[Volica]

"Rich man's Stajan." That's a new one.

Genius.
I love OKG more, and more on this forum.

The best part is people think he represents most Flames fans on the main board.

My favourite part is a player like Jankowski. I was hearing for over a year how this kid was going to be Selke level, absolutely dominant, grade A; a top centre for us. Creative, smart, fast, one of a kind. And we ended up with a guy who if the stars align well could carve out a bottom 6 defensive centre/Brian Boyle type career.

 

[Rubi]

Genius.
I love OKG more, and more on this forum.

The best part is people think he represents most Flames fans on the main board.

My favourite part is a player like Jankowski. I was hearing for over a year how this kid was going to be Selke level, absolutely dominant, grade A; a top centre for us. Creative, smart, fast, one of a kind. And we ended up with a guy who if the stars align well could carve out a bottom 6 defensive centre/Brian Boyle type career.

 

[1989]

I just don't think Monahan's contributions were significant to Ferland's success from a macro perspective considering just how much time Ferland spent stapled to Monahan. Naturally they did hook up on some nice goals together - they should as they're both top six forwards, but it really was "Gaudreau + Ferland" and then Monahan there too.

Not third-line RW??

Saved for posterity.

 

[Rubi]

Not third-line RW??

Saved for posterity.

Wow.. kudos to you to take the time and effort to read through all that bullshit to find that hidden little gem.

 

[JPeeper]

Rubi, why you make a Sean Monahan thread on the main boards? All it does is have other fans have free reign on shitting on Monahan when no one actually watches him play. I understand you want other peoples input, but that isn't the place for it, they know even less about the Flames than the media. They think f***ing Bo Horvat is the superior player now and going forward.

I say this in jest because you're free to do what you want, but I find almost anything brought up Flames related on the main boards just turns into 2 fanbases shitting on the Flames and other fanbases making dumb claims when they have watched 4 Flames games in the entire life.