Sean Couturier Signed to Extension (6 Years $4.33M AAV)

[Audible Velvet]

Your numbers don't prove that Raffl was the one "generating" that offense. It's also entirely devoid of context. Raffl likely won't be matching his SH% again and he had few assists for playing 64% of his minutes with Giroux and Voracek. In comparison, Schenn played 41% of his minutes with those two. That affects your per 60 numbers.

I mean, are you suggesting that Lecavalier is better than Simmonds at generating offense at ES? Clearly not. So that means these numbers aren't really meaningful unless you have another point to make with it.

I don't know if I would call it a "struggle" on the first line for Schenn. It didn't fit great, but he wasn't any worse with those two than he was elsewhere. He just never got hot on the top line.

Did a little poking around War On Ice and elsewhere. Even Strength #s.
In 13/14 Raffl: 52.57 CF, 3.16 FFRel, 51.71 FF, 33 FF+/-, FF/60 40.02, FA/60 37.38, PDO 100.9.
In 13/14 Schenn: 47.91 CF, -2.38 FFRel, 47.55 FF, -72 FF+/-, 39.73 FF/60, 43.82 FA/60, PDO 101.53.
14/15 Raffl: 55.33 CF, 8.04 FFRel, 55.54 FF, 127 FF+/-, 45.11 FF/60, 36.12 FA/60, PDO 98.52.
14/15 Schenn: 49.7 CF, -.67 FFRel, 48.41 FF, -47 FF+/-, 39.72 FF/60, 42.33 FA/60, PDO 100.6.
Similar zone starts for both.

So there's the age difference, but I like to consider the time spent in North America (Raffl) and in the NHL (both).
I know it's only from one season to the next, but one has shown improvement, the other has not.
If you look at WOWY for both... wow, major advantage to guess who?
Now, considering the context of the thread being value and which makes more money and is likely to make more in the future...
Lastly, just to keep it light, Raffl an endorsement from Jake as a linemate with great potential. Meanwhile, Travis Sanheim had some ifnamous tweet about BS.

 

[phlocky]

I'm still not convinced schenn is in the long term plans. We should find out soon enough

I agree with this. I just can't see Schenn getting MORE than coots. I think that if he takes the same deal then he'll be in our long term plans and Read will likely be the odd man out. If Schenn wants more than Coots then I think we trade him before next July and we keep Read.

I don't think Jake gets resigned before the end of next season, I don't think we'll have the cap space to extend that many contracts. Depending on the cap hits everyone is looking for and who may or may not be in our long term plans will dictate what we do by the trade deadline next season (Read, Luke S, Streit, etc getting moved for picks and to free up cap space).

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Schenn vs. Raffl in a straight up comparison is also leaving some things out of the picture. Versatility heavily favors Raffl and I'm also of the belief he could be locked up for a cheaper and more flexible contract than Schenn. I'm not convinced yet that we really need Schenn enough to warrant a Couturier-type contract.

 

[phlocky]

Wow, can't believe this turned into a pissing contest over Raffl and Schenn but I'll play along and chime in.

Raffl has a nose for the net and has good hands, Schenn simply doesn't. G and V are the ones on their line who carry the puck and generate the offense, they need a "finisher" with them. Schenn isn't a finisher, Raffl is. Raffl has the speed to keep up with G and V on a breakaway, Schenn doesn't.

Schenn is a good all around player who does many things well but really hasn't "defined" himself yet. To me, last year he seemed to be the most useful to the team and actually fill a needed role when he was on the PP and playing in front of the net (a role we like Simmonds for better, but it's nice to have 2 guys who can do it).

Schenn is young and can still figure it out and difine for himself his own "valuable role" on this team but as it stands right now he's not "vital" and I could easily see him getting move to fill a holeat LW if he prices hhimself out of Philly. Raffl fills a very specific role on the team and plays a position of serious weakness for us making him IMO more "valuable" but not necessarily better.

Personally, I'd like to see Schenn resigned for 5 years at 4mil per (as others have said you can't have Schenn, Cootscand G all needing new contracts the same year) and Raffl at 2.5 mil for 3 years. I think both are fair and tries to keep as much of the "important" forwards he for the time being.

Remember, Schenn will very soon become our 4th best RW if he stays at that position. Either he has to move to LW and be effective or he needs to be traded

 

[sa cyred]

Wow, can't believe this turned into a pissing contest over Raffl and Schenn but I'll play along and chime in.

Raffl has a nose for the net and has good hands, Schenn simply doesn't. G and V are the ones on their line who carry the puck and generate the offense, they need a "finisher" with them. Schenn isn't a finisher, Raffl is. Raffl has the speed to keep up with G and V on a breakaway, Schenn doesn't.

Schenn is a good all around player who does many things well but really hasn't "defined" himself yet. To me, last year he seemed to be the most useful to the team and actually fill a needed role when he was on the PP and playing in front of the net (a role we like Simmonds for better, but it's nice to have 2 guys who can do it).

Schenn is young and can still figure it out and difine for himself his own "valuable role" on this team but as it stands right now he's not "vital" and I could easily see him getting move to fill a holeat LW if he prices hhimself out of Philly. Raffl fills a very specific role on the team and plays a position of serious weakness for us making him IMO more "valuable" but not necessarily better.

Personally, I'd like to see Schenn resigned for 5 years at 4mil per (as others have said you can't have Schenn, Cootscand G all needing new contracts the same year) and Raffl at 2.5 mil for 3 years. I think both are fair and tries to keep as much of the "important" forwards he for the time being.

Remember, Schenn will very soon become our 4th best RW if he stays at that position. Either he has to move to LW and be effective or he needs to be traded

Woh, Phlocky coming out of your cave for another one of your famous long winded posts eh

Hope your doing good buddy.

 

[bb12]

Wow, can't believe this turned into a pissing contest over Raffl and Schenn but I'll play along and chime in.

Raffl has a nose for the net and has good hands, Schenn simply doesn't. G and V are the ones on their line who carry the puck and generate the offense, they need a "finisher" with them. Schenn isn't a finisher, Raffl is. Raffl has the speed to keep up with G and V on a breakaway, Schenn doesn't.

Schenn is a good all around player who does many things well but really hasn't "defined" himself yet. To me, last year he seemed to be the most useful to the team and actually fill a needed role when he was on the PP and playing in front of the net (a role we like Simmonds for better, but it's nice to have 2 guys who can do it).

Schenn is young and can still figure it out and difine for himself his own "valuable role" on this team but as it stands right now he's not "vital" and I could easily see him getting move to fill a holeat LW if he prices hhimself out of Philly. Raffl fills a very specific role on the team and plays a position of serious weakness for us making him IMO more "valuable" but not necessarily better.

Personally, I'd like to see Schenn resigned for 5 years at 4mil per (as others have said you can't have Schenn, Cootscand G all needing new contracts the same year) and Raffl at 2.5 mil for 3 years. I think both are fair and tries to keep as much of the "important" forwards he for the time being.

Remember, Schenn will very soon become our 4th best RW if he stays at that position. Either he has to move to LW and be effective or he needs to be traded

This is spot on. I'd chime in and say that schenn not playing well with g and jake shouldn't be a dump on his lw skills and abilities but his inability to play with those players. That doesn't make him a bad player just a bad fit for that line.

Now as for him and coots, was it because he was on the right side or was it coots that helped him find a rhythm? I think it's coots. He plays a slower and more controlled game then g and jakes fast paced 1/2 punch. That being said I'd like the see schenn - coots - gagner line to help elevate coots offensive game

 

[Rebels57]

Wow, can't believe this turned into a pissing contest over Raffl and Schenn but I'll play along and chime in.

Raffl has a nose for the net and has good hands, Schenn simply doesn't. G and V are the ones on their line who carry the puck and generate the offense, they need a "finisher" with them. Schenn isn't a finisher, Raffl is. Raffl has the speed to keep up with G and V on a breakaway, Schenn doesn't.

Schenn is a good all around player who does many things well but really hasn't "defined" himself yet. To me, last year he seemed to be the most useful to the team and actually fill a needed role when he was on the PP and playing in front of the net (a role we like Simmonds for better, but it's nice to have 2 guys who can do it).

Schenn is young and can still figure it out and difine for himself his own "valuable role" on this team but as it stands right now he's not "vital" and I could easily see him getting move to fill a holeat LW if he prices hhimself out of Philly. Raffl fills a very specific role on the team and plays a position of serious weakness for us making him IMO more "valuable" but not necessarily better.

Personally, I'd like to see Schenn resigned for 5 years at 4mil per (as others have said you can't have Schenn, Cootscand G all needing new contracts the same year) and Raffl at 2.5 mil for 3 years. I think both are fair and tries to keep as much of the "important" forwards he for the time being.

Remember, Schenn will very soon become our 4th best RW if he stays at that position. Either he has to move to LW and be effective or he needs to be traded

Gonna have to disagree there. If there is ONE area Schenn has Raffl beat, it's hands. He's a much better stick-handler than Raffl. Raffl is faster, better defensively, at winning battles along the boards, jamming the front of the net, etc, but Schenn has better hands.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I think way too many people are buying high on Raffl's season last year. It wouldn't be the least surprising if he regressed back to the mean (10-15 goal range) next year. I know he didn't play on the PP but he really doesn't have the skillset made for it & if the goal scoring goes down than he definitely doesn't belong on there.

 

[WhatIsTwoWayHockey]

I think way too many people are buying high on Raffl's season last year. It wouldn't be the least surprising if he regressed back to the mean (10-15 goal range) next year. I know he didn't play on the PP but he really doesn't have the skillset made for it & if the goal scoring goes down than he definitely doesn't belong on there.

If Raffl stays with G and V all year he will post 20. I could probably score 10 on that line alone. Also, G had a really really slow start last year scoring at even strength....assuming with Hakstol and not Berube, that improves.

Raffl isn't an All-Star winger who snipes left and right, but he's a capable 3rd player on that line that will keep his mouth shut and just play his heart out.

OT: SO HAPPY COOTS GOT PAID

 

[CutOnDime97]

Yeah Schenn actually has pretty decent hands.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

If Raffl stays with G and V all year he will post 20. I could probably score 10 on that line alone. Also, G had a really really slow start last year scoring at even strength....assuming with Hakstol and not Berube, that improves.

Raffl isn't an All-Star winger who snipes left and right, but he's a capable 3rd player on that line that will keep his mouth shut and just play his heart out.

He didn't the previous year when he wasn't shooting 15.7%. He was often pulled off the line because of it.

 

[Random Forest]

If Raffl stays with G and V all year he will post 20. I could probably score 10 on that line alone. Also, G had a really really slow start last year scoring at even strength....assuming with Hakstol and not Berube, that improves.

Raffl isn't an All-Star winger who snipes left and right, but he's a capable 3rd player on that line that will keep his mouth shut and just play his heart out.

OT: SO HAPPY COOTS GOT PAID

Raffl shot at 15.7% last year. That was in the top 20 in the NHL. He'd have to shoot a lot more or finish in the 20 in SH% again to repeat his goal scoring from last year. Both are unlikely.

 

[GKJ]

Didn't Raffl have like 4 empty net goals?

Although he should have been getting more power play time, too.

 

[CutOnDime97]

Didn't Raffl have like 4 empty net goals?

Although he should have been getting more power play time, too.

3 ENG according to this: http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?fetchKey=20152ALLSASALL&sort=emptyNetGoals&viewName=goals.

I think Schenn will show that he is the superior player this season.

 

[CodyTheHuman]

Did a little poking around War On Ice and elsewhere. Even Strength #s.
In 13/14 Raffl: 52.57 CF, 3.16 FFRel, 51.71 FF, 33 FF+/-, FF/60 40.02, FA/60 37.38, PDO 100.9.
In 13/14 Schenn: 47.91 CF, -2.38 FFRel, 47.55 FF, -72 FF+/-, 39.73 FF/60, 43.82 FA/60, PDO 101.53.
14/15 Raffl: 55.33 CF, 8.04 FFRel, 55.54 FF, 127 FF+/-, 45.11 FF/60, 36.12 FA/60, PDO 98.52.
14/15 Schenn: 49.7 CF, -.67 FFRel, 48.41 FF, -47 FF+/-, 39.72 FF/60, 42.33 FA/60, PDO 100.6.
Similar zone starts for both.

So there's the age difference, but I like to consider the time spent in North America (Raffl) and in the NHL (both).
I know it's only from one season to the next, but one has shown improvement, the other has not.
If you look at WOWY for both... wow, major advantage to guess who?
Now, considering the context of the thread being value and which makes more money and is likely to make more in the future...
Lastly, just to keep it light, Raffl an endorsement from Jake as a linemate with great potential. Meanwhile, Travis Sanheim had some ifnamous tweet about BS.

Well **** guys, pack it up. Sanheim once tweeted about a player on a rival to the team he enjoys. Obviously Schenn sucks. Argument over.

 

[duffy9748]

Would be happy if Schenn got the exact same deal.

 

[CutOnDime97]

Well **** guys, pack it up. Sanheim once tweeted about a player on a rival to the team he enjoys. Obviously Schenn sucks. Argument over.

AND Voracek said he likes his teammate Raffl. Pretty obvious Raffl will be in the HHOF after he retires.

 

[sa cyred]

Didn't Raffl have like 4 empty net goals?

Although he should have been getting more power play time, too.

I wouldn't take away any goals just because they were empty net goals.


Also if we are talking about shooting %, I think its about time Simmonds starts to go back to average means. He has been in the 13-14% range for 4 seasons straight. That's how it works right? Not saying Raffl will keep it at 15%, but Read had (before this season) 3, 15% shooting seasons. So yea while it's high, I am not automatically going to think Raffl's its going to drop to 10-11% after one season.

I guess we shall see how this coming season goes. IF Raffl does better, I will assume there will be excuses that he got to play with Giroux and Voracek while Schenn didnt.

 

[CutOnDime97]

I wouldn't take away any goals just because they were empty net goals.

I guess we shall see how this coming season goes. IF Raffl does better, I will assume there will be excuses that he got to play with Giroux and Voracek while Schenn didnt.

And if Raffl doesn't do better, everyone will agree that last season was a flash in the pan where an average player overachieved. Which is what I think is the case.

 

[sa cyred]

And if Raffl doesn't do better, everyone will agree that last season was a flash in the pan where an average player overachieved. Which is what I think is the case.

If Raffl doesnt do well? Of course. I am not going to blindly defend the guy.


I guess in the end, I am one of the few people on here that are pretty neutral on B. Schenn. I dont see him as some bonfide top 6 player. He is currently a good top 9 player. Just like Raffl.

 

[Audible Velvet]

Well **** guys, pack it up. Sanheim once tweeted about a player on a rival to the team he enjoys. Obviously Schenn sucks. Argument over.

See the part where I said about keeping it light. Thought it would be obvious I was kidding. Good grief.

 

[Audible Velvet]

AND Voracek said he likes his teammate Raffl. Pretty obvious Raffl will be in the HHOF after he retires.

Again, a bit vitriolic over a joke.

 

[CutOnDime97]

If Raffl doesnt do well? Of course. I am not going to blindly defend the guy.


I guess in the end, I am one of the few people on here that are pretty neutral on B. Schenn. I dont see him as some bonfide top 6 player. He is currently a good top 9 player. Just like Raffl.

Schenn is very inconsistent. You see flashes where he looks like a bonafide top 6 player then other times he is just extremely frustrating to watch. Somewhat similar to JVR but maybe not as extreme.

My hope is that he can find his game playing wing and stick at that position throughout the season.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I wouldn't take away any goals just because they were empty net goals.


Also if we are talking about shooting %, I think its about time Simmonds starts to go back to average means. He has been in the 13-14% range for 4 seasons straight. That's how it works right? Not saying Raffl will keep it at 15%, but Read had (before this season) 3, 15% shooting seasons. So yea while it's high, I am not automatically going to think Raffl's its going to drop to 10-11% after one season.

I guess we shall see how this coming season goes. IF Raffl does better, I will assume there will be excuses that he got to play with Giroux and Voracek while Schenn didnt.

Well they're both better hockey players than Raffl & proven to be better finishers off the bat which Raffl didn't (9 goals & 8.9% in 68 games). In Simmonds case he was a much younger player where you could argue development & role change was the cause of his jumping up in the first year which continued.

I really don't see what's faulty about thinking a 26 year old jumping from 8.9% to 15.7% in one season isn't going to hold up.

 

[Audible Velvet]

Sorry I ruined your black panther party.

The only reason I even carried on with this was that a rude and presumtuous response was made to a simple statement I put out. Didn't want to deviate from the focus of the thread. I just felt that after that I had to defend my statement.
When it was brought up, I just tried to state that one player was more valuable than another. It's just my opinion. I don't count myself among the hockey erudite, just wanted to put my two cents in.
I think a case can be fairly made for the statement and I also think it's kind of cool how that sparked such a debate.
I understand and appreciate the love of this game and team, but I don't understand the acrimony.