Sean Couturier - Is it time to end him being the number 2 center

[Tripod]

Schenn should not be a 3rd line C unless we give him 1 offensive guy to work with.

Stack our top 6....or run with pairs over 2 lines with each line adding a weaker winger in Read, Raffl, Cousins, Weise, or Laughton.

 

[Curufinwe]

Healthy Read and Weise are not bad as 3rd line wingers go. I think Schenn can carry a secondary scoring line, offensively. The issue for me is how he does defensively and on faceoffs.

 

[Dumpster Flyers]

While I do agree with your overall point, sample size is way too small to look at WOWY stats, not that they're without their own problems in general.

Also, I disagree that he likes to be the "third man back." Well, firstly, the Flyers love to operate with a center breakout so the d try to get it to Coots who hits his wingers out of the zone for those quick breakouts -- which he is immaculate at generating and one of the best on the team....minus his turnovers the last couple games haha. So that's in the system, not Coots being extra "defensive" or anything. But he activates plenty himself to skate the puck through the NZ. I do think you're selling him a tad short with his own work on the rush. Starting in the latter half of 14-15, he's significantly improved his confidence in skating pucks in each season. But, yeah, his ability to get in position for a pass from the d or retrieve the puck himself and then make the successful pass out is absolutely vital to their transition success. To say nothing of him being a ridiculous forechecker and boards player to keep possession once they get it in.

The sample size is small, but the difference is so vast that it's telling.

Also, the D will try to hit Voracek and Konecny with a long breakout pass if they can. If they can't, they'll look to Couturier, who is usually back in support. The latter happens often because the Flyers have two LHD playing on the right side who can't make stretch passes up the boards from their backhand. But that's another story.

 

[lancer247]

Schenn should not be a 3rd line C unless we give him 1 offensive guy to work with.

Stack our top 6....or run with pairs over 2 lines with each line adding a weaker winger in Read, Raffl, Cousins, Weise, or Laughton.

Healthy Read and Weise are not bad as 3rd line wingers go. I think Schenn can carry a secondary scoring line, offensively. The issue for me is how he does defensively and on faceoffs.

I wouldn't have a problem with Schenn at 3C as long as he can get the minutes behind G and Coots.

Konecny Giroux Simmonds
Read Coots Voracek
Laughton/Cousins Schenn Raffl
VDV PEB Weise i

 

[Magua]

The sample size is small, but the difference is so vast that it's telling.

Also, the D will try to hit Voracek and Konecny with a long breakout pass if they can. If they can't, they'll look to Couturier, who is usually back in support. The latter happens often because the Flyers have two LHD playing on the right side who can't make stretch passes up the boards from their backhand. But that's another story.

Stretch passes aren't really a system though...unless you're name is Patrick Roy.

As to what I was saying about Couturier carrying it himself and getting entries, it's nice when you find a stat that backs up the eye test. He's 2nd on the entire team in both carries and entries generated behind the Entry God.

 

[Tripod]

Stretch passes aren't really a system though...unless you're name is Patrick Roy.

As to what I was saying about Couturier carrying it himself and getting entries, it's nice when you find a stat that backs up the eye test. He's 2nd on the entire team in both carries and entries generated behind the Entry God.

Yeah but that's because he targets AMac.

 

[Juicy Pop]

I wouldn't have a problem with Schenn at 3C as long as he can get the minutes behind G and Coots.

Konecny Giroux Simmonds
Read Coots Voracek
Laughton/Cousins Schenn Raffl
VDV PEB Weise i

I believe Tripod's intention was that, if Hak must have Schenn at 3C, it's probably better to run top-6 quality players in pairs down the lineup. As an example:

Ritchie - Getzlaf - Perry
Cogliano - Kesler - Silfverberg
Cramarossa - Vermette - Rakell
Garbutt - Wagner - Boll

I'm not sure how well it would work under Hakstol's system but it makes little sense as it is to strand Schenn. You certainly lose a little punch from your top lines but you do end up with at least two high quality forwards on the ice for most of the game. If they absolutely want to play him at 3C, I'd prefer this:

Raffl - Giroux - Simmonds
Read - Couturier - Voracek
Konecny - Schenn - Lyubimov
Bellemare/Laughton - Cousins - Weise

 

[Magua]

Konecny - Schenn - Lyubimov

The problem is Schenn hasn't been a center in this league because he struggles at playing the center position when it comes to everything but offense. He's not even good 2-way as a winger. At best he's average. Konecny is a small rookie who depends on the 2-way abilities and play driving of Coots and Jake a ton. Take them away and stick him with Schenn, and it wouldn't surprise me to see him magically fade offensively. Lyubimov is a respectable 2-way player, but he's still adjusting in his own ways. That line just has messy defensively written all over it.

Matt Read would probably be better off with Schenn. We saw how he helped lift up Laughton and Cousins with his 2-way, glue guy play. You point out the Ducks lines, but Vermette is no spring chicken and isn't anything special. Schenn is the Rakell of his line already. A couple good possession players is what he needs to offset his play. He has more than enough skill to anchor his line offensively.

 

[Juicy Pop]

The problem is Schenn hasn't been a center in this league because he struggles at playing the center position when it comes to everything but offense. He's not even good 2-way as a winger. At best he's average. Konecny is a small rookie who depends on the 2-way abilities and play driving of Coots and Jake a ton. Take them away and stick him with Schenn, and it wouldn't surprise me to see him magically fade offensively. Lyubimov is a respectable 2-way player, but he's still adjusting in his own ways. That line just has messy defensively written all over it.

Matt Read would probably be better off with Schenn. We saw how he helped lift up Laughton and Cousins with his 2-way, glue guy play. You point out the Ducks lines, but Vermette is no spring chicken and isn't anything special. Schenn is the Rakell of his line already. A couple good possession players is what he needs to offset his play. He has more than enough skill to anchor his line offensively.

Fair enough. I do recall that earlier conversation regarding the safety that Couturier affords both Konecny and Voracek and I agree that I'm probably overvaluing Schenn's two-way ability with that setup.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

IMO Schenn needs to be with G and if you want to spread your wealth I would much rather have Simmer on third line. Schenn is more skilled and better fit with G, while Simmer is best at north south game that will mesh very well with bottom six talent.

Have Raffl take care of dirty work alongside G and Schenn, give Cousins two shooters in Simmer and Read and have Hak get his faves 5 minutes on the 4th line.

However I still think this is a fantasy, at least with Hakstols current roster deployment. But he is getting there, albeit slowly but he is. He figured out the defense, now he needs to take care of offense.

 

[R3M1N1SC3]

Sean Couturier is definitely a 3C. He's never been a 2C. The funny thing is though, he has always been credited with his PKing and defensive "prowess" - but we literally have one of the worst PKs in the league!

Obviously, you can't pin that on one guy - but you can't ignore the fact.

He will NEVER be a dynamic offensive player. He lacks speed and the killer instinct needed to provide offense on a night by night basis.

That being said, he's valuable to the team. He's a good player to have around for a long time - especially if you can surround him w/ good linemates.

 

[Striiker]

Well there you have it folks. He's not a 2C and his defense is overrated because he doesn't singlehandedly stop opponents from scoring. You'd think our PP would be better since he plays the full 2 minutes and it's not possible for his teammates to **** up and a goal to be scored that had nothing to do with him.

Yep.

In the future, if someone wants to go against the grain and argue with the majority opinion it might be a good idea to first use some common sense and see if what you're saying makes sense. Just a thought.

 

[Curufinwe]

Sean Couturier is definitely a 3C. He's never been a 2C. The funny thing is though, he has always been credited with his PKing and defensive "prowess" - but we literally have one of the worst PKs in the league!

Obviously, you can't pin that on one guy - but you can't ignore the fact.

He will NEVER be a dynamic offensive player. He lacks speed and the killer instinct needed to provide offense on a night by night basis.

That being said, he's valuable to the team. He's a good player to have around for a long time - especially if you can surround him w/ good linemates.

He was the 2C and the team's best ES scorer just last year, scoring at a higher rate than all his wingers.

The fact is Couturier is hardly being used on the PK this year. He can't prevent goals from the bench.

 

[Striiker]

A real 2C could prevent them from the bench...

 

[Hurricane28]

Sean Couturier is definitely a 3C. He's never been a 2C. The funny thing is though, he has always been credited with his PKing and defensive "prowess" - but we literally have one of the worst PKs in the league!

Obviously, you can't pin that on one guy - but you can't ignore the fact.

He will NEVER be a dynamic offensive player. He lacks speed and the killer instinct needed to provide offense on a night by night basis.

That being said, he's valuable to the team. He's a good player to have around for a long time - especially if you can surround him w/ good linemates.

The PK issues come from having Bellemare and VdV as the top unit,

 

[Rebels57]

Sean Couturier is definitely a 3C. He's never been a 2C. The funny thing is though, he has always been credited with his PKing and defensive "prowess" - but we literally have one of the worst PKs in the league!

Obviously, you can't pin that on one guy - but you can't ignore the fact.

He will NEVER be a dynamic offensive player. He lacks speed and the killer instinct needed to provide offense on a night by night basis.

That being said, he's valuable to the team. He's a good player to have around for a long time - especially if you can surround him w/ good linemates.

Yeah no this is all wrong.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

I think it is time to admit that Couts is really a baseball player disguised as a hockey player.

 

[Striiker]

I think it is time to admit that Couts is really a baseball player disguised as a hockey player.

Must be why he high-sticks people so often.

 

[NYCFlyer]

Can we all agree that we need another center. If he is better than Coots he will be a 2C and if Coots is better he will be 2C. I would love for Coots to be the 3C because that means we have someone else who is really really good at 2C. I don't see that on the team or in the pipeline so unless someone totally surprises Coots is the 2C unless Hextall trades for one.

 

[YEM]

I've been of the opinion for sometime that #14 is a perfect 3C in today's league and that this team would be incredibly hard to play against with someone else [admittedly I don't know who quite yet-not necessarily a problem because we're not where we want to be yet with the Cap and the younglings on defense] at 2C but #14 is a perfectly capable 2C for now.

 

[Rebels57]

This thread gave me cancer.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

This thread gave me cancer.

I as going to go with a migraine headache but this works too.

 

[Striiker]

Can we all agree that we need another center. If he is better than Coots he will be a 2C and if Coots is better he will be 2C. I would love for Coots to be the 3C because that means we have someone else who is really really good at 2C. I don't see that on the team or in the pipeline so unless someone totally surprises Coots is the 2C unless Hextall trades for one.

Why stop there? Let's get two Cs better than Giroux so Giroux is the 3C and Couturier is the 4C.

 

[hatcher]

Why stop there? Let's get two Cs better than Giroux so Giroux is the 3C and Couturier is the 4C.

We do need 2 cmore centers if we want to win the cup. The 2 and 3 holes.

 

[kelmitchell]

Sean Couturier is definitely a 3C. He's never been a 2C. The funny thing is though, he has always been credited with his PKing and defensive "prowess" - but we literally have one of the worst PKs in the league!

Obviously, you can't pin that on one guy - but you can't ignore the fact.

He will NEVER be a dynamic offensive player. He lacks speed and the killer instinct needed to provide offense on a night by night basis.

That being said, he's valuable to the team. He's a good player to have around for a long time - especially if you can surround him w/ good linemates.

You couldn't be more wrong