Scouting - A Discussion of Mike Gillis' Ideas

Nucker101

Foundational Poster
Apr 2, 2013
21,202
16,720
I was a big fan of Gillis, but I don't know about this new idea he has about scouting. Seems very strange, and I'm not sold on the effectiveness at all.
I don't mind it, but it's not as groundbreaking as it seems on the surface. Scouting staffs have debates all the time during pre-draft meetings, and if there's two different scouting staffs, you'll still have an element of group-think. How well prospects are evaluated is always going to be the key, without great scouts and investment into a well resourced analytical department, you'll always be chasing the top drafting teams, regardless of the process of ranking players.
 

Canucker

Go Hawks!
Oct 5, 2002
25,551
4,759
Oak Point, Texas
Agreed. It's basically a resume - and a pretty well put together one.

The one critique I would make is one that has always been true of Gillis; it definitely smacks of his arrogance. I certainly enjoyed it when he was our GM, but it's a two-edged sword. He comes across as, and definitely seems to think of himself as, the smartest guy in the room. And his criticism of the "old boys club" and "hockey men" might do him a bit more harm than good as that is the very fraternity he is seeking to join, and it's a tightly knit one.

He's not wrong though...when people still defer to guys like Brian Burke, Doug MacLean and even Don Cherry before he was ousted, they are speaking with an "old boys club" with archaic ideas on how to manage a sports franchise, and how the game is currently played...Personally I had more issue with how he presented himself to the public through the media...it always seemed adversarial and condescending, but I'm sure a lot of that was probably due to the adversarial and condescending nature of Vancouver media...I hope he has learned from those mistakes...pretty sure he would have to, because he's not the only potential GM out there now who is receptive to innovating and using unorthodox methods of extracting the most potential out of people...and they likely don't have to carry some of the same baggage he does.
 

Mr. Canucklehead

Kitimat Canuck
Dec 14, 2002
40,656
31,910
Kitimat, BC
He's not wrong though...when people still defer to guys like Brian Burke, Doug MacLean and even Don Cherry before he was ousted, they are speaking with an "old boys club" with archaic ideas on how to manage a sports franchise, and how the game is currently played...Personally I had more issue with how he presented himself to the public through the media...it always seemed adversarial and condescending, but I'm sure a lot of that was probably due to the adversarial and condescending nature of Vancouver media...I hope he has learned from those mistakes...pretty sure he would have to, because he's not the only potential GM out there now who is receptive to innovating and using unorthodox methods of extracting the most potential out of people...and they likely don't have to carry some of the same baggage he does.

Oh, I agree he's not wrong - but thinking that and saying it to members of the old boys club are two different things.
 

Peter10

Registered User
Dec 7, 2003
4,193
5,042
Germany
I thought that 'old boys club' comment he made should have been edited out..It already creates a divide, and demonstrates his arrogance, yet again,..

Its not 20o8 anymore, and if he were hired, he would literally be one of the oldest GM's..He's 5 years older than Benning...27 years older than Kyle Dubas.

But again, his idea for having two independent drafting groups in an organization was an interesting one..If he implemented it while he was here, and was successful with it, I'm sure that a lot of other teams would have made it a standard practice..

Old boys club has nothing to do with age but rather a certain way of approaching things.
 

tradervik

Hear no evil, see no evil, complain about it
Sponsor
Jun 25, 2007
2,374
2,500
The "two teams" idea strikes me as gimmicky and ineffective. I would suggest putting a lot more effort into developing ways to assess results and provide feedback. There should be some type of performance based compensation. For example, all the scouts who supported drafting Pettersson should get bonuses. The scouts who argued against Pettersson should be obliged to wear ugly sweaters for a month.
 

HedonisticAltruism

Registered User
Sep 26, 2008
223
259
I'm surprised you don't remember the groundbreaking MindRoom™, a Clockwork Orange style brain reprogramming centre.

Quotes just go to show, from what the players were even willing to tell the media, that Gillis's constant capacity for innovation was at times less than well-received by his own players.

There was also other drama that I guess people need to be reminded of: Canucks are being sued by an Italian soccer sports psychologist | ProHockeyTalk | NBC Sports


I don't know why you're so against trying new things to get an edge. Do you really think Gillis thought all of these things would have success? Of course not, but there's hardly a reason against trying some of them. Also, this idea, despite the negative connotation you're trying to associate with ripping off someone else's 'Clockwork Orange' 'clever' remark (nevermind that CO's premise was that it was effective, just used in a horrifying manner), does have some roots in science at a bare minimum - the placebo effect.

Now, I honestly believe it was not the best use of time and would argue there were possibly more effective ways of achieving a similar result but that's hindsight and my own biases towards hard sciences. Empirically, there are a lot of people who get a lot of benefit out of spirituality, mindful meditation and the like. We know athletes especially are very, very superstitious people and a significant factor in their performance is confidence - being in the zone. Why not foster things which might help to get them there? Just because some of the tactics didn't work or were less effective than was hoped, does not make the trial pointless. That's the risk of innovation.

Re: 'drama' on the psychologist - who the hell cares? You really think that's a significant distraction to the players that the organization is in a lawsuit? You know what I care more about? The ineptness of Benning where he's fined for tampering while on radio on Stamkos and Subban. That's a relevant distraction - in fact, it's not just that he's too dumb to realize he was tampering, it was actually an admission on air that he was.

Also, you're making a lot of assumptions on the player's opinions being even more negative than they would admit. I will fully cop that I'm making some similar assertions based on where MacT's state-of-mind is; however, the players still largely bought in. Note too that just because someone has a negative opinion on a matter, doesn't mean it's ineffective. I hate filling out timesheets but recognize the value to my organization. I also crack jokes on those KPI-like forms all the time.

But fine, let's play this idiotic game of cherry picking quotes:

BURNSTEIN When I started with the Canucks in 1995, we became one of the first teams to have a hyperbaric chamber. We always felt like we were trying to get ahead of the curve, seeing what’s out there. Certainly when Mike came in, he brought a different perspective. Teams were starting to look at hiring performance people, mental people, a sports psychologist, a nutritionist, sleep people, motivational speakers — all of these different specialists…. Mike’s philosophy on things was, “We’ve got the horses. Can we get another per cent out of them?”

TAMBELLINI The exciting thing as a player is when you can tell that ownership and management is willing to spend any dollar amount to give our group the edge to have success. They’re bringing in 3D visual training to work hand-eye co-ordination and peripheral vision. You walk into a room, the food that was coming out and the recovery drinks. Whether we won or lost, this was the plan and they were sticking to it. It was so noticeable that this team was all into winning. We’re going to give our players the best opportunity to be fresh every night.

KESLER [There was a machine] that took our heart rate, that tells whether you should practice or not. We would do that every morning. The mechanism to slow down your breathing after games. I bought into everything.

CRAWFORD I worked there a long time — 16 years. I remember being there for group talks about it very early on, Marc (Crawford) and Mike Johnston talking: “We’ve got a younger team, but we have the hardest travel. How are we going to do that?” Mike flipped that. He said, “Listen, we have to maximize the schedule and we have to go to the league to get it done.” Instead of managing the players, they managed the league.

CARLING A couple of the things we did weren’t always popular, but they were done because there was a belief it was the right thing to do. And you can imagine the guy telling his wife after 12 days with the kids at home, “Oh, by the way, we’re not coming home Thursday. We’re going to come home Friday.” But it was done so that the team would be ready for the next game after that.

VIGNEAULT He challenged our comfort zone. He wanted to be proactive in everything. Mike had this idea about bringing in a science expert, like they have in soccer. I really liked the idea, but I thought maybe this should be tested at a lower level before you bring it to us. And, to tell you the truth, [he] was … right. There were some things we tried for a short amount of time and then moved on. But I liked being proactive and looking for any new thing that could help an athlete perform, whether it be physical or mental. To this day, I use a lot of those things I learned in those five years with him.

WILLIAMS I can’t speak for the other teams, but we had three laptop computers in the main lounge where every player’s shifts and all the games were kept. The full line or a defence pair could sit with a computer apiece. They would watch the shifts, discuss what they were doing, what they needed to do better. They did it in groups all the time. Even when we were on the road, we took these computers and put them in the room in the hotel we had for the players. Rod Brathwaite helped me a lot with that. It wasn’t very often they just sat there with nobody looking at them.

KESLER [Gillis] stayed the course the whole time. It took me years being gone to understand how good [he] was. I can’t believe he doesn’t have a job, to be honest.

The best team in Vancouver Canucks history, Part I – Sportsnet

It really speaks volumes to how this fan base is that this period in Canucks history can be dismissed so easily.

But there - is that enough quotes for you? Do I 'win'? :rolleyes:
 

HedonisticAltruism

Registered User
Sep 26, 2008
223
259
Agreed. It's basically a resume - and a pretty well put together one.

The one critique I would make is one that has always been true of Gillis; it definitely smacks of his arrogance. I certainly enjoyed it when he was our GM, but it's a two-edged sword. He comes across as, and definitely seems to think of himself as, the smartest guy in the room. And his criticism of the "old boys club" and "hockey men" might do him a bit more harm than good as that is the very fraternity he is seeking to join, and it's a tightly knit one.

To be fair, it's a resume and for an chief executive-type position. You don't think you sound egotistical in your own resume?

That said, Gillis definitely needs some empathy/communication training. But so do many "old boy's" - Burkie comes to mind first and foremost lol
 

Frankie Blueberries

Allergic to draft picks
Jan 27, 2016
9,230
10,731
"An absolute disaster of the type that will be studied in the future" --> that is quite the description of one down year, with a coach forced upon the team by the owner, after 5 straight divisional championships from year zero and the greatest success the team has ever seen.

Really makes you question a poster’s motives when they are intent on disparaging Gillis every time he comes up, yet propping Benning up all the time. The objective results would support the opposite viewpoint.
 

HedonisticAltruism

Registered User
Sep 26, 2008
223
259
"An absolute disaster of the type that will be studied in the future" --> that is quite the description of one down year, with a coach forced upon the team by the owner, after 5 straight divisional championships from year zero and the greatest success the team has ever seen.

Yeah, clearly the goal should be getting top 10 draft picks every year. That's the GMJB way to define success :laugh:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jyrki21

Pastor Of Muppetz

Registered User
Oct 1, 2017
26,215
16,115
Old boys club has nothing to do with age but rather a certain way of approaching things.
I'll still stand by my opinion..based on Gillis' reputation among other GM's, its not a clever thing for him to say...Could easily be misconstrued as arrogant..
 
Last edited:

F A N

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
18,761
5,973
KESLER [There was a machine] that took our heart rate, that tells whether you should practice or not. We would do that every morning. The mechanism to slow down your breathing after games. I bought into everything.

CRAWFORD I worked there a long time — 16 years. I remember being there for group talks about it very early on, Marc (Crawford) and Mike Johnston talking: “We’ve got a younger team, but we have the hardest travel. How are we going to do that?” Mike flipped that. He said, “Listen, we have to maximize the schedule and we have to go to the league to get it done.” Instead of managing the players, they managed the league.
...
VIGNEAULT He challenged our comfort zone. He wanted to be proactive in everything. Mike had this idea about bringing in a science expert, like they have in soccer. I really liked the idea, but I thought maybe this should be tested at a lower level before you bring it to us. And, to tell you the truth, [he] was … right. There were some things we tried for a short amount of time and then moved on. But I liked being proactive and looking for any new thing that could help an athlete perform, whether it be physical or mental. To this day, I use a lot of those things I learned in those five years with him.

WILLIAMS I can’t speak for the other teams, but we had three laptop computers in the main lounge where every player’s shifts and all the games were kept. The full line or a defence pair could sit with a computer apiece. They would watch the shifts, discuss what they were doing, what they needed to do better. They did it in groups all the time. Even when we were on the road, we took these computers and put them in the room in the hotel we had for the players. Rod Brathwaite helped me a lot with that. It wasn’t very often they just sat there with nobody looking at them.

KESLER [Gillis] stayed the course the whole time. It took me years being gone to understand how good [he] was. I can’t believe he doesn’t have a job, to be honest.
...
It really speaks volumes to how this fan base is that this period in Canucks history can be dismissed so easily.

But there - is that enough quotes for you? Do I 'win'? :rolleyes:

There's no doubt that Gillis was "progressive." He admitted himself in recent interviews that he's really into the human performance area of sports science. So definitely with Gillis you felt that if there is a stone to turn over he would likely turn it over.

With that said though, there's theory and then there's practice. In theory you want to "manage" the league and negotiate the best schedule for your team. In practice there's not much a team can do. Maybe one year we were happy with the schedule? You can look at the schedule and determine whether it's better to stay the night or fly in to the next city after the game. The science may be there but I'm not sure that there's a one size fit all: some players would have more energy if they flew in at night as opposed to morning and vice versa.

In theory giving players the tools to maximize their recovery and sleep makes them perform better. In practice, assistant captain Willie Mitchell just gave a rookie all the sleep monitoring watches and went out for a beer with the boys. Many old school coaches give players the day off from practice to help manage fatigue. In theory, using biofeedback and neurofeedback instruments to help a player better manage stress and focus their attention can help a player in critical game situation. In practice, the Sedins went into the Mind Room once and heard themselves scoring goals with the fans cheering on. In theory, a player who takes great care of their body and combined with human performance science training should prolong a player's career. In practice, father time waits for no one.

Of course some tools such as analytics and video have become common place. I'm certain that using video as part of coaching an a player's training is helpful. But at the same time, we do talk about Hockey IQ as something that isn't likely to improve. So if you have a player who is susceptible to making slow and poor decisions defensively and with the puck how likely are you able to significantly improve such weakness through breaking things down using video with that player?

I was and still am a big fan of Gillis. I think that with him heading Hockey Operations there was a sense that the team was constantly looking for ways to gain and edge and I'm sure most players appreciate that even if they didn't buy into it. I am not sure how much of the human performance/sports science stuff that Gillis implemented actually produced a positive result. There's a fine line between wanting to be the best and doing everything to perhaps gain a slight edge. It would be one thing to measure say Hughes shot velocity and point out ways he can improve it and having Hughes wear measurement probes at every practice. Even if all that process does help, like those sleep monitor bracelets, it may be more of an annoyance than the potential edge it can bring. That's how I feel anyways.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,801
85,172
Vancouver, BC
Gillis' thoughts on smaller scouting teams is 100% correct. I've been saying this for years. The current 20 amateur scouts/team thing is a relic of the 1980s when no junior games were on TV and you had to have guys in the rink. At that point, it was a necessary evil. And a nice place for nepotism appointments.

But there's no way having that many voices in the room is efficient. You're balancing too many opinions and things end up happening like Ol' Walt in Manitoba hasn't had a guy in his region picked in 5 years so maybe we should give this pick to him.

NHL teams now should have a large amateur scouting video staff that is editing junior games down to 60-minute packages so your best 4 or 5 scouts in a tight team can watch several games/day. More games seen by fewer people so your best scouts are all seeing everyone so they can make player-to-player comparisons more accurately. The way things are done now with crossover scouts and the like simply isn't an effective way of doing things.

Where he goes wrong is the two different groups stuff. All that will accomplish is dragging your rankings back to a consensus pick. Like, Detroit went off the board and hit it out of the park with Moritz Seider in 2019. Brilliant stuff. But if they have two groups and the one group is nailing it by having Seider as a top-5 pick and the other has him at 12th, that's how you end up with Philip Broberg being an acceptable compromise with a higher combined ranking, and making a lousy pick.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,801
85,172
Vancouver, BC
One other thing I'd do if I were an NHL GM would be to have social media scouts.

One scout covers 3 or 4 teams exclusive and just follows everything they can both in the MSM and on Twitter and boards like this.

Those scouts wouldn't even necessarily watch the players, they'd just keep the team updated on rumour and innuendo - what rumblings might be of who might be on the outs with the coach, if guys are rumoured to have major off-ice problems or injury issues, and what consensus fan takes on various players are.

We've been bit on the ass by things we didn't know and should have (Vey's distracting family situation is a prime example), bit on the ass by injury situations that could have been avoided with a bit more attention (Ferland), and signing guys who literally every single fan of an opposing team could have told us absolutely sucked (Bartkowski a prime example).
 

Burke's Evil Spirit

Registered User
Oct 29, 2002
21,399
7,393
San Francisco
One other thing I'd do if I were an NHL GM would be to have social media scouts.

One scout covers 3 or 4 teams exclusive and just follows everything they can both in the MSM and on Twitter and boards like this.

Those scouts wouldn't even necessarily watch the players, they'd just keep the team updated on rumour and innuendo - what rumblings might be of who might be on the outs with the coach, if guys are rumoured to have major off-ice problems or injury issues, and what consensus fan takes on various players are.

We've been bit on the ass by things we didn't know and should have (Vey's distracting family situation is a prime example), bit on the ass by injury situations that could have been avoided with a bit more attention (Ferland), and signing guys who literally every single fan of an opposing team could have told us absolutely sucked (Bartkowski a prime example).

The Vey thing wasn't known by fans, but Benning and them did know about it iirc.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,916
16,469
all of this dunking on gillis for trying new things, or quoting people dunking on gillis for trying new things, just seems so... ideological? i'm struggling for the right word here.

i mean, lebron james, steve nash, kobe bryant, some of the greatest athletes of the last 20 years all do/did and spent untold resources and hours on all these same things that gillis tried. sleep, diet, mood, all of it, and they spent their own money to build multi-million dollar complexes for all of this. you think they wouldn't have loved to have gillis for a GM spending team money on it?

but for some reason, for a certain contingent of hockey people, their imagination can't go beyond sending your kids to gary roberts man camp.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,801
85,172
Vancouver, BC
The Vey thing wasn't known by fans, but Benning and them did know about it iirc.

My recollection is that when it came out, the team admitted they weren't aware of it when they traded for him. They obviously did find out between that point and when it came out in the media here.

Canuck caught up in alleged family murder conspiracy | Vancouver Sun

Per Botchford :

The Canucks learned about the case after trading a second-round draft pick for Vey in 2014.
 

F A N

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
18,761
5,973
all of this dunking on gillis for trying new things, or quoting people dunking on gillis for trying new things, just seems so... ideological? i'm struggling for the right word here.

i mean, lebron james, steve nash, kobe bryant, some of the greatest athletes of the last 20 years all do/did and spent untold resources and hours on all these same things that gillis tried. sleep, diet, mood, all of it, and they spent their own money to build multi-million dollar complexes for all of this. you think they wouldn't have loved to have gillis for a GM spending team money on it?

but for some reason, for a certain contingent of hockey people, their imagination can't go beyond sending your kids to gary roberts man camp.

Gary Roberts was considered a "progressive" trainer who focused on hockey related sports training and proper nutrition (as far as I know). His man camp worked for lots of boys. That's actually one of the points I raised though. You could buy into everything Gillis has available to his team's players. You could also just attend Gary Roberts man camp. Which plan is better (if there is a better)? Cody Hodgson's opinion doesn't count. :sarcasm:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Canucks5551

Bubbles

Die Hard for Bedard 2023
Apr 16, 2004
8,547
7,831
BC Teams:Nucks,Juve
Agreed. It's basically a resume - and a pretty well put together one.

The one critique I would make is one that has always been true of Gillis; it definitely smacks of his arrogance. I certainly enjoyed it when he was our GM, but it's a two-edged sword. He comes across as, and definitely seems to think of himself as, the smartest guy in the room. And his criticism of the "old boys club" and "hockey men" might do him a bit more harm than good as that is the very fraternity he is seeking to join, and it's a tightly knit one.

Totally agree. Just the way the whole presentation was written is arrogant, although he makes valid points. The OBC still hates him, and as I've written in a past Gillis thread, there were and are still GMs that hate him and won't deal with him. He pissed off a few of the top OBC too, and that has a trickle effect on others.

He's also holding out for a President of Hockey Operations job, and that is few and far between. Unlike other fired GMs, he didn't take a scout job or a lower level hockey ops job just to stay in the game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr. Canucklehead

Ernie

Registered User
Aug 3, 2004
12,845
2,318
Gillis was the best GM in Canucks history. But he had his issues. Lots of people note his draft record, but that's not what brought him down.

It was his arrogance. First thing he did as GM was insult Nonis (who had plenty of connections in the local media) and then insinuate that the team should move on from the Sedins.

He pissed off virtually every reporter in town except Gallagher (and maybe Botchford). Yeah, the media in this city is dumb and most of them have insufferable egos of their own, but managing them is a key part of the job. Instead he shut them out and at times openly insulted them.

At the end, with the team faltering and an impatient owner, the reporters he pissed off saw their opportunity to stabbed him while he was down. The fanbase here is notoriously fickle and were happy to go along.

Meanwhile, while Benning is objectively a much worse GM, he's respectful to everyone. And he gets a much longer rope because of it.

I have a lot of respect for Gillis but I would think twice about hiring him to be the face of the front office unless he shows a lot of awareness of how his past behaviour affected the team.
 

rypper

21-12-05 it's finally over.
Dec 22, 2006
16,485
20,501
I push back on the notion that GMs refused to work with him.

The Canucks under Mike Gillis made trades with 19 out of 29 teams. Some of the most trades he made were with the oldest of the old boys club, Dale Tallon. Lou Lameriello had no problem dealing with him. Rutherford, Poile, fletcher etc all made deals.

I'd go so far as to say the only GMs who wouldn't have dealt with him are Burke and Nonis. I don't know if you can look at no trades with Edmonton or Calgary as an indictment against Gillis either because of proximity and rivalry.

Any GM refusing to work with another isn't doing what's best for his team either.
 

Bubbles

Die Hard for Bedard 2023
Apr 16, 2004
8,547
7,831
BC Teams:Nucks,Juve
I push back on the notion that GMs refused to work with him.

The Canucks under Mike Gillis made trades with 19 out of 29 teams. Some of the most trades he made were with the oldest of the old boys club, Dale Tallon. Lou Lameriello had no problem dealing with him. Rutherford, Poile, fletcher etc all made deals.

I'd go so far as to say the only GMs who wouldn't have dealt with him are Burke and Nonis. I don't know if you can look at no trades with Edmonton or Calgary as an indictment against Gillis either because of proximity and rivalry.

Any GM refusing to work with another isn't doing what's best for his team either.

There were some, I never said all of them. Of course there was plenty of GMs that dealt with him.

Burke for one, and then Kevin Lowe. That had do mostly with the whole Nylander contract situation. John Davidson on the Blues also did not like him. Remember the whole offer sheet pissing match?
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad