Scouting - A Discussion of Mike Gillis' Ideas

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Isn’t this what some of the theory / postulating around Benning talking to Futa was? That he might be looking to expand the scouting responsibilities?

Could be a sign that a lot of teams are already doing / soon going to be employing this method.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Oh, Gillis's dazzling capacity for "innovation" had effects alright.

Quotes are good but results are better.

 

[HedonisticAltruism]

Quotes are good but results are better.

They're also terrible quotes to use for the argument. Ok, Henrik was overwhelmed when going into a stats room. Is there a conclusion? Is Henrik supposed to be an analyst?

Willie couldn't get a beer at a bar. That's 'evidence' against winning the president's trophy?

And... quoting a divisional rival coach's opinion as evidence against it? Lol... do we even have to go into why there might be a negative bias there, especially considering the mediocrity the oilers had been under MacT, less a cinderalla run?

 

[JAK]

Oh, Gillis's dazzling capacity for "innovation" had effects alright.

No one is perfect from the start, adjustments needs to be made regardless.

But the desire to do whatever is possible off the ice to improve the team, is how an organization should approach things to sustain long term success.

As long as it isn't against CBA rules, every club should try to do as much as they can to win.

One of the worst mistakes Benning did coming in was letting the old guard go to have one voice in the room.

 

[Canucks5551]

That seems like a really interesting idea. I hope he gets the opportunity to give it a try.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

The sleep doctor, in particular, is an idea that really caught on and lots of NHL teams have them now (the Canucks no longer do).

 

[Bubbles]

Out of the loop here, is there a link for those Gillis ideas?

I remember from the Athletic article last year, Gillis suggested having 4 assistant GMs, instead of the standard 2. I think a lot of Gillis' points stem to hiring more off ice personnel, because they are not cap restrainted. It's not a bad idea but it could turn into a too many cooks in a kitchen scenario if not properly organized.

 

[Nucker101]

I like it, wish he did it here instead of drafting overage prospects early in the draft

 

[Bubbles]

Just did a quick Google search and found the 27 pages. Interesting stuff. Gillis is definitely innovative, but sometimes he comes off as arrogant, and that remains his biggest criticism. He even mentions the "Old Boys Club" in his proposal, and there's still plenty of those type of people in the hockey world.

He would have done great in Seattle, where he would have total control but they went a different direction. He would also probably want a team with a unlimited budget for off-ice personnel, which a lot of NHL teams don't have, like our billionaire owner.

Honestly, Gillis would work in a soccer environment where budgets are limitless. I think some of his ideas could be properly used on soccer teams.

 

[RussianRacket]

someone remind me why we obsess over this guy who inherited gold, made like 3 good trades, turned it into an absolute disaster of the type that will be studied in the future, and made a pretty decent draft pick once.

 

[Dab]

someone remind me why we obsess over this guy who inherited gold, made like 3 good trades, turned it into an absolute disaster of the type that will be studied in the future, and made a pretty decent draft pick once.

I know the canucks have so many cups that bringing the team to game 7 of the finals is meaningless

 

[RussianRacket]

2009-2013 canucks are some of the most underachieving teams of all time. siccccck

a competent gm who doesn't have his head up his own ass probably gets us two stanley cups at least

 

[Dab]

2009-2013 canucks are some of the most underachieving teams of all time. siccccck

a competent gm who doesn't have his head up his own ass probably gets us two stanley cups at least

Nah, dynasty or bust!

 

[RussianRacket]

Gillis inherited:

Sedins
Luongo
Burrows
Kesler
Bieksa
Salo
Edler
Raymond
Hansen

Plus Willie Mitchell. He inherited literally the entire 2011 team and he f***ed it all up year after year. 2011 is the only year he can be given credit for as we collapsed because of injuries, but even then he opened his stupid mouth and yapped at all the wrong times.

The guy is a smug chump. Don't you remember the circus we turned in to? all on him. Wanna go back to that?

I'm not on team keep benning. I'm absolutely not on team gillis. Gillis would have outsmarted himself and skipped on Hughes when the kid magically dropped to us.

 

[RussianRacket]

oh and also his best moves were for Errorhoff, a guy the Sharks were begging to give away. And Hamhuis, a guy who was begging to play in his home province. wow such negotiator

he allowed to fester a toxic organizational environment. He is toxic. Stay far far away.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Game 7 SCF and back-to-back President's Trophies, along with one of the most dominant seasons in the cap era in 2011. GM of the year as well.

If you can't see the value Gillis brought to the team, then you're kind of hopeless. It would take a miracle for Benning to come even close to achieving similar success as Gillis. Yes, they inherited different teams at different phases, but just take a look at the quality of Benning's acquisitions vs. Gillis' and the assets given up. Gillis' only real blunder that handcuffed the team was the Ballard trade.

 

[RussianRacket]

you're stuck on benning. i am not.

 

[Didalee Hed]

I would love it if Gillis and Aquilini both swallowed their pride, kissed and made up, and pulled off the biggest troll job in nhl history. For them to reconcile and then for Gillis to lead them to a cup with a really progressive new approach, and Aquilini nearly just as importantly showing similar growth in just staying out of it. It would be such a huge and satisfying f*** you to all of the gleeful grave dancers. A lot of people all over the place still take too much joy out of the fall of the Gillis Canucks. Winning one with him returning to town is the most satisfying timeline that we deserve.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I would love it if Gillis and Aquilini both swallowed their pride, kissed and made up, and pulled off the biggest troll job in nhl history. For them to reconcile and then for Gillis to lead them to a cup with a really progressive new approach, and Aquilini nearly just as importantly showing similar growth in just staying out of it. It would be such a huge and satisfying f*** you to all of the gleeful grave dancers. A lot of people all over the place still take too much joy out of the fall of the Gillis Canucks. Winning one with him returning to town is the most satisfying timeline that we deserve.

That would be fantastic. Gillis at least proved he can get us within a game of the Cup; Benning has largely proven the opposite as he's better at keeping us as a bottom feeder.

 

[Didalee Hed]

That would be fantastic. Gillis at least proved he can get us within a game of the Cup; Benning has largely proven the opposite as he's better at keeping us as a bottom feeder.

I just have this feeling that Gillis is still the guy. It’s not even close to a normal scenario but I just believe in the guy. Like you said, he was within 1 game of winning it all on his first try. He is the actual reason he himself got fired. He had built up such a standard of success that as soon as it went south the crowd fired him. He got like a year of leash. Benning has had a bunch of bonus years past his bye bye time.

I just really want to be an invested partner in one of the greatest moments ever- the successful rise from the ashes of the most hated duo in memory- Mike and Frank. I’d love to cheer on some black hat redemption arc history.

 

[rypper]

Using analytics to help Kesler score goals

Another interesting story from Gillis was hearing him talk about how Vancouver used analytics to bring out the best in the players they had.
“We had analytics guys go through a study to find out what had to happen for Ryan Kesler to score a goal,” said Gillis.

“We determined we didn’t want him carrying the puck through the neutral zone because nothing happened, we didn’t want him carrying the puck over their blue line because nothing happened, but if we retrieved the puck within about a 10-metre radius of the net, good things happened all the time with him on the ice.

“So we went about trying to find players who could do that – were really good puck retrieval, smart players. Chris Higgins was one of them. Of course we put him on the power play where he would be in front of the net, he caused a lot of trouble, he scored a tremendous amount of goals.
“That’s how he went from being a third-line centre to a Selke Award winner who scored 40 goals.”

A better version of Kesler

If you’re a Canucks fan and you’re wondering what Gillis would do to surround the current emerging Canucks core of Elias Pettersson, Bo Horvat, Brock Boeser, and Quinn Hughes, one astute listener did ask that question.
“I want speed around those guys because none of them are particularly the fastest players out there,” said Gillis.

“If you compliment them with really high end speed, really high end puck retrieval skills, and really high intellect, I think you’ll see those guys develop into – I think Horvat will develop into a version of Kesler, maybe a better version of Kesler.”

Does any of that happen under Nonis? Under a Benning ran team?

Disturbing the status quo

With his name causing so much backlash in hockey circles just this past week, Gillis spoke about how the new ideas he brought to hockey rubbed many the wrong way.
“We were doing things that some of the other, mostly older guys, didn’t like,” said Gillis.

“I’ll give you an example: when the draft of the schedule would come out, Laurence [Gilman] and I would get on a plane as quickly as we could and we’d go to New York.”

Gillis explained that they worked on modifying the schedule with the NHL head office based on an algorithm they created that included travel and other issues.

“Other teams heard we were doing this … Suddenly complaints started coming in that we had resources that they didn’t have and we shouldn’t be able to go in there and do this stuff.

“The same thing happened with analytics and other things. There were complaints from some of the other GMs about the fact the Canucks had resources that they were applying in this area: ‘We don’t have them so they shouldn’t be able to do them.'”

He inherited a great core to start with, but it was his moves and innovations that made it into a contender. Before he took over the team missed the playoffs 2 out of 3 years.

Former Canucks GM Gillis says analytics helped Kesler score goals | Offside

 

[rypper]

I didn't read his whole thing but I don't think his plan is to have an AGM or two "devoted solely" to scouting?

Would an AGM necessary make more than an established Director of Amateur Scouting? I'm guessing that veteran scouts or directors who have been with the team for years would earn more than a freshly minted AGM. I think amateur scouts generally fall into two types of groups: those with management/GM aspirations and those who do not. We see many veteran scouts don't actually interview for management roles or even move onto AGM roles. If they get "promoted" and get an AGM title added on that's one thing, but we're talking about Al Murray and Tim Burke types here.

If I could post the organization chart I would, but there are two equal AGM positions dedicated to scouting. Both holding the title of associate head scout, both with a team of 6 scouts working underneath them.

Perhaps my original idea would be a better fit for attracting up and coming scouts, rather then the long tenured ones.

When Yzerman moved on, and brought the only AGM, Pat Verbeek with him to Detroit, new GM Julien Brisebois promoted Al Murray and 2 other directors (player development and pro scouting) to AGM's in an effort to keep them in Tampa.

“It wasn’t as much about keeping as many people as possible, as it was these three people,” Julien BriseBois said after the announcement Monday morning.

Lightning promotes three, hires one in hockey operations

Let's say that Al Murray doesn't get that promotion and doesn't follow Yzerman to Detroit and has aspirations of moving up, and Vancouver offers him an AGM role perhaps that entices him to come over. Maybe a far fetched scenario but maybe the opportunity is out there.

(Tampa's organizational structure might be the closest to what Mike Gillis proposed in the NHL today.)

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I'd much prefer a general manager who has a focused and specific vision for his hockey club that he pursues with a single-minded focus, supported by close advisors whose expertise he trusts due to an intimate and extended working relationship, than a general manager whose vision is one of endless delegation, dilution and robotic neutrality.

Even if said vision would make his team one of the worst in the league over, lets say, ~7 seasons?

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

And... quoting a divisional rival coach's opinion as evidence against it? Lol... do we even have to go into why there might be a negative bias there, especially considering the mediocrity the oilers had been under MacT, less a cinderalla run?

MacTavish was part of the Canucks org for a while, which is probably when this quote was made.

 

[biturbo19]

There are some interesting ideas and concepts in there.

I don't mind the idea of encouraging a bit more of an "adversarial" sort of discussion in the draft room. Really critically arguing for/against certain prospects and their respective merits. I think that's hugely valuable in taking a look at a favoured prospect from a different angle. But i don't think that's necessarily a novel or unique concept.

The idea of having Amateur Scouts spending some time taking a critical look, doing some Pro Scouting work as a bit of an "exchange program" is a very good one. I think at times, amateur scouts can seemingly get lost in a separate world, where prospects kinda disappear from their radar once they "graduate". It's important to continue to look at how projections turn out many years later as Pros (both good projections and bad, guys who over and underperform relative to the scouts expectations and projections). Not just in a casual sense, but in a more critical sense...trying to break down and analyze what went right, what went wrong, what unexpected developments emerged and strengths/weaknesses that did indeed carry through and project.


The idea of having separate teams of expanded scouting staff all going about their business and generating multiple different lists...i do not like very much. I think the problem you run into with that, is that the more you expand things and the more you diversify opinions like that...the more you start to drag toward something like a surveyed "consensus list" of averages...like a Bob's List. Which frankly, for a lot of fans, it seems like nothing would make them happier than a team just drafting strictly off Bob's list. But the reality is, that's a much better predictor of where prospects are likely to be drafted...than a prognostication tool for how well a given prospect is going to translate. I don't think that approach of "averaging it out" by expanding the sample size of opinions until any one perspective becomes almost weightless, is the right way to go about it.

It's actually a funny idea coming from Gillis. Where his one truly successful draft pick (Horvat), is someone that i really do not think would have fared well in the sort of multi-layer large scale bureaucratic process he's outlining there. Whereas his other picks (especially in the top few rounds), were largely failures and busts who probably would have fared very well and ended up still ultimately being the selections in a process like that.