Scouting - A Discussion of Mike Gillis' Ideas

F A N

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Aug 12, 2005
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I'm sure many of you have read/heard about Mike Gillis "leaked" ideas on scouting. If not here's what presented to the Penguins:

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The amateur scouting process has always been of interest to me. It seems to me that having as much information as possible is desirable. With that in mind, some teams have built a large scouting department. Theoretically, more eyes = more viewings and information right? Gillis himself greatly expanded the amateur scouting department when he was here. Then again, you have (arguably) good drafting teams like Anaheim, Nashville, Washington, San Jose, and even Tampa Bay who ran with a smaller group of amateur scouts. If more scouts was indeed better, the correlation doesn't seem to be there in terms of the drafting results.

I think there is a line between looking for players that fit say what a Canuck should look like and being stuck drafting the same type of player with every pick. Successful drafting teams often talk about the former. Then there's the whole "Best Asset Available" vs "Best Player Available" argument.

At the end of the day, a draft list needs to be created. Under Gillis' plan, there would be two independent draft lists. That obviously presents challenges as the time for putting together the draft list is limited.

And what about amateur scouts scouting professionally? There are certain teams that don't define the roles of their scouts. Amateur scouts can be influenced by their past views of a player as scouts can have a long memory. The Canucks have certainly acquired players they have liked from the draft. At the same time, the role of an amateur scout is to project prospects into NHL players and it's imperative that they know what an NHL player looks like.

Anyhow, I think it's an interesting discussion all around.
 

HedonisticAltruism

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Sep 26, 2008
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I do like the approach of a semi-adversarial nature, at least, enough to see if the idea has water. You'd have to try and map if the incentives/payoffs work with such a system, as it does in 'sales'.

My larger concern, that would have to be monitored, would be figuring out if you can tease out the relevant data without listening to the additional noise for having so many more voices. I think it would come down to having as consistent as possible a set of metrics in which you're trying to base your arguments on the success of a player - the subjectivity would ideally be reduced in that sense to only the person watching and not the system itself.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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Oct 1, 2017
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I read that..and the idea of having 2 independent scouting groups is a novel idea....too bad he never thought of that during his time here...
 
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rypper

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If he's given the kind of budget for staffing i think he wants, there could be an opportunity to poach/entice people from other organizations to come to the Canucks.

If you're a well regarded veteran scout or even director of amateur scouting without the opportunity to move up in your organization, wouldn't you consider coming to Vancouver to take on an AGM role and salary?

Most teams have 1-2 AGMs but Gillis creates a scenario where we would have 2 devoted solely to scouting.
 

HedonisticAltruism

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Sep 26, 2008
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Sorry if it came across that way..I was praising the idea...I've never seen it done.

Fair - my own expectations bleeding into it lol. Sorry.

Always liked Gillis shame how he never got another chance. He was very innovative and created a very exciting time for Vancouver. If only we drafted better though is correct that was his achilles heal.

He also fully cops to it as well in the slides and notes it was one of his biggest mistakes. Still, there's evidence he was turning it around near the end of his tenure, and his pro-scouting was still above average if not just good.
 

Canucker

Go Hawks!
Oct 5, 2002
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I really like this approach...I love the idea of getting rid of the "groupthink"...It reminds me of the scene in Moneyball when all the scouts were sitting around together with the same old archaic ideas until Billy Beane shook up the room and the old style of thinking.
 

CantStoptheBrock

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I'd much prefer a general manager who has a focused and specific vision for his hockey club that he pursues with a single-minded focus, supported by close advisors whose expertise he trusts due to an intimate and extended working relationship, than a general manager whose vision is one of endless delegation, dilution and robotic neutrality.
 
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Peen

Rejoicing in a Benning-free world
Oct 6, 2013
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I mean, I don't really care about what the methodology is. I understand his attempt to mitigate groupthink but I wonder where he got the idea from. I can't think of any other front offices that do this so I wonder where he came up with the idea.

Anything would be better than the garbage that went on in those early years of his regime.
 

F A N

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Aug 12, 2005
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If he's given the kind of budget for staffing i think he wants, there could be an opportunity to poach/entice people from other organizations to come to the Canucks.

If you're a well regarded veteran scout or even director of amateur scouting without the opportunity to move up in your organization, wouldn't you consider coming to Vancouver to take on an AGM role and salary?

Most teams have 1-2 AGMs but Gillis creates a scenario where we would have 2 devoted solely to scouting.

I didn't read his whole thing but I don't think his plan is to have an AGM or two "devoted solely" to scouting?

Would an AGM necessary make more than an established Director of Amateur Scouting? I'm guessing that veteran scouts or directors who have been with the team for years would earn more than a freshly minted AGM. I think amateur scouts generally fall into two types of groups: those with management/GM aspirations and those who do not. We see many veteran scouts don't actually interview for management roles or even move onto AGM roles. If they get "promoted" and get an AGM title added on that's one thing, but we're talking about Al Murray and Tim Burke types here.
 

Bojack Horvatman

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Jun 15, 2016
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Sounds like an interesting idea, but I don't know if there will be a lot of improvement compared to cost. Trying to eliminate groupthink is a good idea, but its all going to come down to arguing on a list at the end, and you will still need a good scouting staff. How well you do will still mostly come down to where you pick, and it will still be a crapshoot.
 

HedonisticAltruism

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Sep 26, 2008
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I didn't read his whole thing but I don't think his plan is to have an AGM or two "devoted solely" to scouting?

Would an AGM necessary make more than an established Director of Amateur Scouting? I'm guessing that veteran scouts or directors who have been with the team for years would earn more than a freshly minted AGM. I think amateur scouts generally fall into two types of groups: those with management/GM aspirations and those who do not. We see many veteran scouts don't actually interview for management roles or even move onto AGM roles. If they get "promoted" and get an AGM title added on that's one thing, but we're talking about Al Murray and Tim Burke types here.

Look at his org chart. He has two, separate scouting divisions, each headed up by an AGM. They will be supported by the same analytics team, though, to reduce that type of noise/error/bias (to some extent - each team could always prioritize which metrics they care about differently but the numbers should be the same).
 
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F A N

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Aug 12, 2005
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Sounds like an interesting idea, but I don't know if there will be a lot of improvement compared to cost. Trying to eliminate groupthink is a good idea, but its all going to come down to arguing on a list at the end, and you will still need a good scouting staff. How well you do will still mostly come down to where you pick, and it will still be a crapshoot.

It does upend the traditional way amateur scouting departments are run. I previously read an interview with Al Murray and he mentioned that while different GMs gave different directions and did things differently in the end the process was the same. I've read something similar from other veteran scout directors. So it appears to me that on every team you would have regional scouts pushing for guys for the crosscheckers to watch and the crosscheckers would try to have as many viewings as possible. Then the Chief scout/director would go and watch the top players. It's a system of talent identification and crosschecking. You can have more crosscheckers vs fewer etc but in the end the system is remarkedly similar. The goal is to communicate and try to come to a consensus.

So my concern with two independent scouting staffs would be that those two groups aren't in constant communications with each other. You hear Brackett talking about having worked with each other for years and trusting each other. I would think that familiarity and trust is important but with two independent scouting staffs how can you achieve that type of trust and familiarity quickly?
 

Burke's Evil Spirit

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The more interesting role in that Gillis presentation was having an AGM solely dedicated to knowing the cap situation of *every* team - a braindead obvious role every team should set up asap.

Look at his org chart. He has two, separate scouting divisions, each headed up by an AGM. They will be supported by the same analytics team, though, to reduce that type of noise/error/bias (to some extent - each team could always prioritize which metrics they care about differently but the numbers should be the same).

Right but that doesn't mean that all the respective AGM does is oversee the scouting team.
 

HedonisticAltruism

Registered User
Sep 26, 2008
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The more interesting role in that Gillis presentation was having an AGM solely dedicated to knowing the cap situation of *every* team - a braindead obvious role every team should set up asap.



Right but that doesn't mean that all the respective AGM does is oversee the scouting team.

True but considering the granularity in which he's broken up the AGM roles, I think it's reasonably safe to say he's really investing hard to counter the criticisms on his drafting record. There's more 'detail' - at least in concepts - in his descriptions. The only odd one to me was... whichever AGM was also responsible for the farm teams (which, I felt was like the contract guy? I don't completely remember and am not invested enough to look it up again).
 

Nona Di Giuseppe

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Jul 14, 2009
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Sounds like an interesting idea, but I don't know if there will be a lot of improvement compared to cost. Trying to eliminate groupthink is a good idea, but its all going to come down to arguing on a list at the end, and you will still need a good scouting staff. How well you do will still mostly come down to where you pick, and it will still be a crapshoot.

compared to cost ? not sure how or why you're making that a factor here. it's not really much of a factor.

and the idea is two lists is going to cause for one to have to argue. everyone is forced to back-up their decisions.

it's less of a crapshoot because of the differences and similarities. there's a lot of benefit. groupthink is why we have such things like U2 putting their music onto our iphones, and the last season of game of thrones. it's the birth of bad ideas in fully equipped environments
 

I am toxic

. . . even in small doses
Oct 24, 2014
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compared to cost ? not sure how or why you're making that a factor here. it's not really much of a factor.

and the idea is two lists is going to cause for one to have to argue. everyone is forced to back-up their decisions.

it's less of a crapshoot because of the differences and similarities. there's a lot of benefit. groupthink is why we have such things like U2 putting their music onto our iphones, and the last season of game of thrones. it's the birth of bad ideas in fully equipped environments
It's - once again - opportunity cost.

Those resources could be put towards player development.


Or learning to colour with crayo . . . I mean, management training and development.
 
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JAK

Non-registered User
Jul 10, 2010
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A properly ran organization will have sufficient funding to try to be the best at everything they do.

It's both the same in the head office and in the coaching staff. Additional coaches with their own distinct flavour of responsibilities that yields to their strength, will help out the team more over all.

Gillis should have been retained as the President of the club and let the new GM do their thing, his work on building first class locker room, and adding professionals for nutrition and sleep no doubt had affects on our team, especially since we have the worst travel schedules.

Yes, real life doesn't have unlimited budget, but if a team is solely focused on winning, we gotta have a deep pocket owner who is willing to spend.
 

CantStoptheBrock

Registered User
Jun 26, 2020
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A properly ran organization will have sufficient funding to try to be the best at everything they do.

It's both the same in the head office and in the coaching staff. Additional coaches with their own distinct flavour of responsibilities that yields to their strength, will help out the team more over all.

Gillis should have been retained as the President of the club and let the new GM do their thing, his work on building first class locker room, and adding professionals for nutrition and sleep no doubt had affects on our team, especially since we have the worst travel schedules.

Yes, real life doesn't have unlimited budget, but if a team is solely focused on winning, we gotta have a deep pocket owner who is willing to spend.
Oh, Gillis's dazzling capacity for "innovation" had effects alright.

Henrik Sedin said:
"I remember sounds all around me and watching myself scoring goals," Canucks captain Henrik Sedin recently told Jason Botchford of the Province about his first and only visit to Gillis's mind room.

Willie Mitchell said:
"Yeah, I couldn’t go out for a beer after the game," says Willie Mitchell, the Los Angeles Kings defenceman who was in Vancouver when they experimented with sleep science. "They’re actually biofeedback devices on your wrist, so we sent one of the rookies back to the hotel and had him wear 25 of ’em."

Craig MacTavish said:
The one thing that Mike Gillis brings is a real progressive outlook. As we all are, he’s looking for new and creative and innovative ways to give ourselves a competitive advantage. You know those things at times cut both ways too, it’s good to try and incorporate some of these new wave ideas – because there are lots of them out there – but at times when you try and incorporate so many, and you bring in so many experts that it can be counter-productive.
 

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