Salary Cap: Salary Cap Thread - Waiting for Goaldot

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean I'm going to be very honest, here... @Peat and others (and I am guilty as well)... there are simply far too many words devoted to ZAR. He's just sorta there. I truly don't understand why so many seem to gravitate towards the guy as this like... hill to die on. It's baffling to me. Perhaps I'm just missing something, I'll concede. I have plenty of times in the past. So have we all... as a reminder. But I think what you see with this guy is what you get and while that is certainly not NOTHING it's also not good enough were it me to pony up for. If the numbers swirling around (2ish million) are accurate then that just seems like wasted cap allocation to me even if it isn't a large sum of money in the grand scheme.

All in all I guess that while I find the whole thing kinda funny I just don't care enough to debate it too much. This fanbase makes far too much out of it's depth lines both when speaking of them critically and when pumping their tires, IMO. "Best Third Line In Hockey" "BART elite shutdown Selke dudes" "signing guys like Jankowski, ERod etc. is an embarrassment" "Lets barf money and assets for like a decade searching for a 3C" etc.

 

[Peat]

Yeah, basically we all know how the arbitration hearing's going to go. Pittsburgh will point out that, despite the metrics, ZAR's production is fairly mediocre and in line with the qualifying offer, he has problems with durability. ZAR's camp will say that his pro-rated/projected production/stats are elite for middle 6 players as far as points/GP and he should be considered to be a top 9 player instead of a 4th liner.

I have no idea which argument the arbitrator will buy, but I think that the team gave ZAR a fair offer and if he wants more, he should go pound sand (gently, so he doesn't injure himself again).

ZAR's p/60 last season would have been elite 4th liner/bottom of the barrel 3rd liner. Which, admittedly, I'm not sure is even a stat that'll come up due to not being on the NHL site, but then neither are many of the possession metrics that love him.

He is not delusional, I'm delusional. I said if I am ZAR that is what I would do.

As a player, unless I was getting paid as a top player. I would want to become a UFA as soon as possible and then sell myself to the league.

I'm less of a gambler so, if I were a bottom six guy like ZAR with ZAR's history, I'd rather take a little less for term so I don't end up out of the league at the first slice of bad luck. Which is kinda what he did last time - didn't go to arbitration when offered an extra year at the same money at the last moment.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I mean I'm going to be very honest, here... @Peat and others (and I am guilty as well)... there are simply far too many words devoted to ZAR. He's just sorta there. I truly don't understand why so many seem to gravitate towards the guy as this like... hill to die on. It's baffling to me. Perhaps I'm just missing something, I'll concede. I have plenty of times in the past. So have we all... as a reminder. But I think what you see with this guy is what you get and while that is certainly not NOTHING it's also not good enough were it me to pony up for. If the numbers swirling around (2ish million) are accurate then that just seems like wasted cap allocation to me even if it isn't a large sum of money in the grand scheme.

All in all I guess that while I find the whole thing kinda funny I just don't care enough to debate it too much. This fanbase makes far too much out of it's depth lines both when speaking of them critically and when pumping their tires, IMO. "Best Third Line In Hockey" "BART elite shutdown Selke dudes" "signing guys like Jankowski, ERod etc. is an embarrassment" "Lets barf money and assets for like a decade searching for a 3C" etc.

I take it back, ZAR is the Rush of hockey players. Only stats nerds and drummers like him.

Geddy Lee AND Neil Pert have much to answer for.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

I'm less of a gambler so, if I were a bottom six guy like ZAR with ZAR's history, I'd rather take a little less for term so I don't end up out of the league at the first slice of bad luck. Which is kinda what he did last time - didn't go to arbitration when offered an extra year at the same money at the last moment.

He couldn't become a UFA last time. If I am him, after seeing what low level players got this offseason I am betting on myself.

If he goes out and plays the way he does and puts up 30 points he will be inline for a Goodrow/McGinn/Foegele style contract. Easily a Nick Ritchie type deal.

There will be teams that love analytics and he will be a darling for someone.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

After seeing how garbage a Jank or Lafferty can be in a b6 role, I’d hope we can squeeze one more year out of ZAR for cheap. That said, no tears if we can’t.

 

[Deport Ogie]

I take it back, ZAR is the Rush of hockey players. Only stats nerds and drummers like him.

Geddy Lee AND Neil Pert have much to answer for.

I feel personally attacked. Again.

I get the discussion around ZAR. I do, really. He literally has one thing and outside of that one thing he's imitation vanilla extract. It doesn't help that the one thing is the kind of thing that shows on 'nerd graphs.' It's the kind of thing that I happen to think it's important enough to take up around 1.5-2 million dollars of cap. Any more than that and I'm fine letting him go. I mean, we're not talking about a boring bottom 6 guy who's good at defensive effects, we're talking about a boring bottom 6 guy who's ELITE at defensive effects. Lawd amighty this fanbase turned Mike Zigomanis into a cult hero for winning some faceoffs.

Would it be nice if he scored more? Sure would. But then you'd have like, Joel Erikkson Ek and we'd be talking about a 4-5 million AAV instead of 1.7 so, I guess it comes out in the wash.

 

[HandshakeLine]

maybe…but he might also want security…I could see a deal with ZAR signing for 3 years $1.8 mil per….if they can get him under $2 mil by offering another year or two, the club probably prefers to do that and he might prefer that as well…he did the last time

But arbitration wouldn't get him that, no? I thought basically arbitration was 1 or 2 years, no ability to give more than that.

 

[Deport Ogie]

But arbitration wouldn't get him that, no? I thought basically arbitration was 1 or 2 years, no ability to give more than that.

I think arbitration can only give a contract that, at most, takes him to UFA years so 1 year only.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Lawd amighty this fanbase turned Mike Zigomanis into a cult hero for winning some faceoffs.

I agree with the bulk of your post my man, I just want the record to show that I thought Zigomanis ate week-old donkey dicks by the pound.

 

[Andy99]

But arbitration wouldn't get him that, no? I thought basically arbitration was 1 or 2 years, no ability to give more than that.

they can agree to any contract before arbitration…if he goes to an arbitration hearing because of his age, then it’s only a one year contract…

 

[Peat]

I mean I'm going to be very honest, here... @Peat and others (and I am guilty as well)... there are simply far too many words devoted to ZAR. He's just sorta there. I truly don't understand why so many seem to gravitate towards the guy as this like... hill to die on. It's baffling to me. Perhaps I'm just missing something, I'll concede. I have plenty of times in the past. So have we all... as a reminder. But I think what you see with this guy is what you get and while that is certainly not NOTHING it's also not good enough were it me to pony up for. If the numbers swirling around (2ish million) are accurate then that just seems like wasted cap allocation to me even if it isn't a large sum of money in the grand scheme.

All in all I guess that while I find the whole thing kinda funny I just don't care enough to debate it too much. This fanbase makes far too much out of it's depth lines both when speaking of them critically and when pumping their tires, IMO. "Best Third Line In Hockey" "BART elite shutdown Selke dudes" "signing guys like Jankowski, ERod etc. is an embarrassment" "Lets barf money and assets for like a decade searching for a 3C" etc.

I agree we talk too far much about them and that I'm as guilty as anyone.

As such, I apologise in advance for when I next get bored and type a thousand words about him. So... three days from now.

I take it back, ZAR is the Rush of hockey players. Only stats nerds and drummers like him.

Geddy Lee AND Neil Pert have much to answer for.

Damn, it's like you really know me. Although I never had any time for Rush.

I agree with the bulk of your post my man, I just want the record to show that I thought Zigomanis ate week-old donkey dicks by the pound.

But is that a good thing or a bad thing in Eastern European cuisine?

 

[billybudd]

I mean I'm going to be very honest, here... @Peat and others (and I am guilty as well)... there are simply far too many words devoted to ZAR. He's just sorta there. I truly don't understand why so many seem to gravitate towards the guy as this like... hill to die on. It's baffling to me. Perhaps I'm just missing something, I'll concede. I have plenty of times in the past. So have we all... as a reminder. But I think what you see with this guy is what you get and while that is certainly not NOTHING it's also not good enough were it me to pony up for. If the numbers swirling around (2ish million) are accurate then that just seems like wasted cap allocation to me even if it isn't a large sum of money in the grand scheme.

All in all I guess that while I find the whole thing kinda funny I just don't care enough to debate it too much. This fanbase makes far too much out of it's depth lines both when speaking of them critically and when pumping their tires, IMO. "Best Third Line In Hockey" "BART elite shutdown Selke dudes" "signing guys like Jankowski, ERod etc. is an embarrassment" "Lets barf money and assets for like a decade searching for a 3C" etc.

People overreact negatively to Aston-Reese because the analytics-only "watchers" pretend he's incredibly valuable (see also: Tyler Kennedy--although Kennedy actually did bring something unique and beneficial to the table, unlike ZAR). If this segment didn't talk about him this way, his name would almost never come up.

ZAR is not a relevant player--as a positive or a negative. Getting rid of him doesn't improve the team. There is not an opportunity cost to giving him a roster spot. Best case scenario would be that you'd replace him with another player who is irrelevant. Worst case, you replace him with someone who's bad.

That said, it would be unwise to sign ZAR to any contract carrying any sort of notable pay increase. Paying above value to a generic asset is death in a system with fixed budget ceilings.

 

[HandshakeLine]

But is that a good thing or a bad thing in Eastern European cuisine?

I'm pretty sure donkey dicks are universally disliked, but I never actually read posts from West Virginia, so, I'm having second thoughts about being so emphatic about it.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Actually I just want to expand on this point.

We are f***ed. We know this. We are f***ed until such point Sid, Geno, and Guentzel start bringing the thunder come the playoffs, and one of our goaltenders can play league average (or preferably above). There's a lot of talk about the bottom six and how much we should be paying them and whether they've got the right make up, but it's deck chairs on the Titanic unless the bottom six can produce an HBK, for which the cap space isn't really available unless we can get cheap talent to come through on scoring lines and shuffle top six wingers down. The extra saved by cutting to the bone down there doesn't equal the bump the top six needs, and let's be real the bump the top six needs unless Sid, Geno, and Guentzel are themselves is just f***ing Everest sized. And, given how many of their problems are injury related, there's only so much the GM can do about it.

This team's hope rests on Sid, Geno, and Guentzel getting some fitness - maybe a bit more support - Letang maintaining, Marino rebounding, and either Jarry rebounding or a new number one. Tbh, the personnel of the bottom six are only interesting insofar as they a) don't embarrass themselves b) they offer the possibility of sliding up.

I think Hextall knows this and is trying to stockpile as much cheap top 9/4 talent as possible in case it comes true. I think it's the right move, albeit probably too late.

But that's where we are. Most of the noise about the bottom six is just meaningless. We are f***ed, or unf***ed, depending on events high above them.

This is what frustrates me.

We recognize the same things, but instead of preparing for bigger changes and/or taking calculated risks on players who could break through, we're seemingly content to keep the main complementary pieces and bunt with low ceiling depth players who we know aren't going to elevate.

Ho hum. Same old, same old. Let's go softly into that good night.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I mean I'm going to be very honest, here... @Peat and others (and I am guilty as well)... there are simply far too many words devoted to ZAR. He's just sorta there. I truly don't understand why so many seem to gravitate towards the guy as this like... hill to die on. It's baffling to me. Perhaps I'm just missing something, I'll concede. I have plenty of times in the past. So have we all... as a reminder. But I think what you see with this guy is what you get and while that is certainly not NOTHING it's also not good enough were it me to pony up for. If the numbers swirling around (2ish million) are accurate then that just seems like wasted cap allocation to me even if it isn't a large sum of money in the grand scheme.

All in all I guess that while I find the whole thing kinda funny I just don't care enough to debate it too much. This fanbase makes far too much out of it's depth lines both when speaking of them critically and when pumping their tires, IMO. "Best Third Line In Hockey" "BART elite shutdown Selke dudes" "signing guys like Jankowski, ERod etc. is an embarrassment" "Lets barf money and assets for like a decade searching for a 3C" etc.

When we're paying a guy like ZAR a mil over league minimum and McGinn a couple mil over league minimum, it's worth thinking about the calibre of winger we could get for 6.5 mil or 7.5 mil. Because that's potentially the cap difference between Zucker and an elite winger.

Which do we need more? More ZARs and McGinns or an elite winger who can bring something special to the team?

 

[SEALBound]

This is what frustrates me.

We recognize the same things, but instead of preparing for bigger changes and/or taking calculated risks on players who could break through, we're seemingly content to keep the main complementary pieces and bunt with low ceiling depth players who we know aren't going to elevate.

Ho hum. Same old, same old. Let's go softly into that good night.

Which players should we send out and which ones should we try to get back for those calculated risks?

From what I can tell, that was the JR-style of GM'ing that so many here hated...

 

[SEALBound]

When we're paying a guy like ZAR a mil over league minimum and McGinn a couple mil over league minimum, it's worth thinking about the calibre of winger we could get for 6.5 mil or 7.5 mil. Because that's potentially the cap difference between Zucker and an elite winger.

Which do we need more? More ZARs and McGinns or an elite winger who can bring something special to the team?

There are 32 NHL teams that would love to add another elite winger who can bring something special.

What elite winger that is available do you propose bringing in?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I agree we talk too far much about them and that I'm as guilty as anyone.

As such, I apologise in advance for when I next get bored and type a thousand words about him. So... three days from now.

Ha you know I'd read every word, regardless.

I'm pretty sure donkey dicks are universally disliked, but I never actually read posts from West Virginia, so, I'm having second thoughts about being so emphatic about it.

We don't f*** donkeys 'round these parts. We only f*** ourselves.

People overreact negatively to Aston-Reese because the analytics-only "watchers" pretend he's incredibly valuable (see also: Tyler Kennedy--although Kennedy actually did bring something unique and beneficial to the table, unlike ZAR). If this segment didn't talk about him this way, his name would almost never come up.

ZAR is not a relevant player--as a positive or a negative. Getting rid of him doesn't improve the team. There is not an opportunity cost to giving him a roster spot. Best case scenario would be that you'd replace him with another player who is irrelevant. Worst case, you replace him with someone who's bad.

That said, it would be unwise to sign ZAR to any contract carrying any sort of notable pay increase. Paying above value to a generic asset is death in a system with fixed budget ceilings.

Yeah I think this is perfectly stated. Better than I have attempted to do. If you can get the guy for like 1.5M for a year or two I guess that's not worth complaining about. You go much higher and you start thinking back to JR and how his little overpays here there and everywhere eventually turned into a bit of a lumbering mess. Which can add up and lead to legitimate questions such as...

When we're paying a guy like ZAR a mil over league minimum and McGinn a couple mil over league minimum, it's worth thinking about the calibre of winger we could get for 6.5 mil or 7.5 mil. Because that's potentially the cap difference between Zucker and an elite winger.

Which do we need more? More ZARs and McGinns or an elite winger who can bring something special to the team?

I'm not going to pretend like this team can just snap it's fingers and get what it wants. And I don't even know at this point how much another top level wing would help this team but I know it would be more effective than spending it on a like... 9+ million dollar 4th line or something. I think it's worth remembering both the lessons that Shero AND JR taught us. Don't fetishize defense and bottom lines at the expense of your breadwinners and don't overpay on every contract (particularly for the former) while bleeding insane amounts of assets on questionable fits.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Which players should we send out and which ones should we try to get back for those calculated risks?

From what I can tell, that was the JR-style of GM'ing that so many here hated...

JR was not taking calculated risks. There's nothing calculated about signing JJ for 6 bloody years at 3.25 mil.

There are 32 NHL teams that would love to add another elite winger who can bring something special.

What elite winger that is available do you propose bringing in?

Obviously. The teams that get those wingers are the ones with the assets to land them and the cap space to accommodate them.

Could be any number of higher salaried players - we don't know how teams will fare or if players will fall out with an organization. But just based on this year's impending UFAs, if a Gaudreau, or Pavelski, or Giroux, or Forsberg were to become available, I'd like the Pens to be in a position to add them rather than say "whoops, we prioritized a couple bottom 6 wings, looks like there isn't enough room to make it happen".

 

[Pens x]

When we're paying a guy like ZAR a mil over league minimum and McGinn a couple mil over league minimum, it's worth thinking about the calibre of winger we could get for 6.5 mil or 7.5 mil. Because that's potentially the cap difference between Zucker and an elite winger.

Which do we need more? More ZARs and McGinns or an elite winger who can bring something special to the team?

Our GM prefers to go dumpster diving. Low risk, no reward.

 

[Peat]

We don't f*** donkeys 'round these parts. We only f*** ourselves.

What about eating them?

This is what frustrates me.

We recognize the same things, but instead of preparing for bigger changes and/or taking calculated risks on players who could break through, we're seemingly content to keep the main complementary pieces and bunt with low ceiling depth players who we know aren't going to elevate.

Ho hum. Same old, same old. Let's go softly into that good night.

Way I see it -

Brock McGinn's put up some really good results in Carolina's top 6, and it's a sizeable amount of minutes. His stats aren't great overall because he's struggled next to guys like Victor Rask, but I think he's a good calculated risk for a guy who could go off with good linemates.

Danton Heinen's got solid history and potential. If McGinn and Heinen are the first two guys up the depth chart, something interesting can happen.

ERod and Simon probably aren't those guys but they're real cheap one year deals which can be kicked to the curb the moment guys who can break through from WBS are ready.

And I'm somewhat ambivalent about ZAR, who I think is a good piece to have but is obviously going to cost a bit for someone with no elevation potential.

And I'm very ambivalent about the decision to run our top 6/top 4 back the way it is, but I just can't point to a deal that I think was available for us where I'm going "FFS Hextall!". Happy to hold fire there. And maybe it results in going gentle, but I'd rather do that then take a bunch of wild gambles and burn away any chance of anything more.

People overreact negatively to Aston-Reese because the analytics-only "watchers" pretend he's incredibly valuable (see also: Tyler Kennedy--although Kennedy actually did bring something unique and beneficial to the table, unlike ZAR). If this segment didn't talk about him this way, his name would almost never come up.

Counter point - there's a ton of people here who act like playing ZAR is akin to sending a toddler with diarrhea onto the ice before anyone bothered to look up his stats, and most people only bring them up because of said crowd. And plenty of the more pro-analytics crowd here are meh on bringing him back.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

Could be any number of higher salaried players - we don't know how teams will fare or if players will fall out with an organization. But just based on this year's impending UFAs, if a Gaudreau, or Pavelski, or Giroux, or Forsberg were to become available, I'd like the Pens to be in a position to add them rather than say "whoops, we prioritized a couple bottom 6 wings, looks like there isn't enough room to make it happen".

With Geno being out for an extended period of time the team will have the room for those players. The bigger issue is does the team have the assets to get a player like them. The Bottom 6 wings have nothing to do with the lack of assets.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

What about eating them?

We only eat peperoni rolls, Code Red and evidently nasty-ass DiCarlos pizza.

 

[Peat]

We only eat peperoni rolls, Code Red and evidently nasty-ass DiCarlos pizza.

And people in West Virginia believe in a benevolent deity?!

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

And people in West Virginia believe in a benevolent deity?!

Speaking strictly for myself, no.

The rest of the state worships coal dust and Mothman as far as I can tell.